Modern secular morality and it's inability to be authoritative

[YahuahSaves]

Which actually doesn't mention love.

But anyway, love your enemies? Hey, you can give that a go if you like.

So what's your morality based on then? Self-preservation? Giving something for the sake of getting something in return?

The law is a set of rules, that if observed should result in love as referenced by Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40

Do you know what the dictionary definition of "love" is?

love
noun

1) A strong feeling of affection and concern toward another person, as that arising from kinship or close friendship.
2) A strong feeling of affection and concern for another person accompanied by sexual attraction.
3)A feeling of devotion or adoration toward God or a god.

Do you know what the biblical definition of love is? (OG greek)

agape love
noun

selfless love of one person for another without sexual implications (especially love that is spiritual in nature)

(Notice how Jesus quotes the golden rule again).

Luke 6:27-36
Love for Enemies

27 “But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. 28 Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. 31 Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

Name another philosopher to ever walk the earth who claimed loving our enemies was a good thing? No person alive today can honestly say they are able to do this naturally. It can only be done supernaturally by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Larniavc]

In essence your axioms/presuppositions require Judaeo-Christian Theistic presuppositions in order to function.

Can you explain that? I don’t see how I require that.

 

[Bradskii]

So what's your morality based on then? Self-preservation? Giving something for the sake of getting something in return?

Don't make the mistake of thinking a straightforward answer is a simplistic explanation.

I'm in a bar and a friend rolls up and discovers he has no money. I'll buy him a drink with no expectation of him needing to pay me back. A week later, it's his round and again he's out of cash. No worries, I'll help him out again. How many times do I do this? Not many. Eventually I stop buying his beers and I actively avoid him. But if he does buy me a beer at some point because I helped him out then we're all good.

That's reciprocal altruism. Not giving with the expectation of being paid back. But if there is a realisation that this is a one way street and that you are being taken for a ride, you stop. And the results are noted. Others see me as being helpful and I benefit. They see the guy who is sponging off others and someone to be avoided. They see that helping each other, even without a need to be reimbursed, is a good way to live.

So I'm the type of guy who will buy those first two beers. I'm not the type of guy who only gives to receive. But I'm also not the type of guy who keeps being taken advantage of. That is, as far as I am concerned, a morally acceptable way to live. And there's no scripture that I follow. No rules I obey. Other than those I think make the world a better place in which to live.

 

[YahuahSaves]

he accuracy of the Bible cannot be assumed.

axiom
noun

1) A self-evident or universally recognized truth; a maxim.
2) An established rule, principle, or law.
3) A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate.

Would you say these 3 commandments out of 10 are "universally" true?

6) You must not murder.

7) You must not commit adultery.

8) You must not steal.

 

[Bradskii]

axiom
noun

1) A self-evident or universally recognized truth; a maxim.
2) An established rule, principle, or law.
3) A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate.

Would you say these 3 commandments out of 10 are "universally" true?

6) You must not murder.

7) You must not commit adultery.

8) You must not steal.

Do you think that if the bible says something with which we can all agree, then the total accuracy of the bible is irrefutable? There are some things in Mein Kampf which are indisputably true.

You must know that that is a nonsensical argument.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I'm in a bar and a friend rolls up and discovers he has no money. I'll buy him a drink with no expectation of him needing to pay me back.

No drink for your enemies then?

That's reciprocal altruism

Well you answered my question directly. Your morality is based on "Giving for the sake of getting something in return".

reciprocal altruism
noun

Used in biology to describe the phenomenon of two animals acting in ways which mutually benefit one another.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Others see me as helpful and I benefit.

So you help others for the sake of appearances as well?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Do you think that if the bible says something with which we can all agree, then the total accuracy of the bible is irrefutable? There are some things in Mein Kampf which are indisputably true.

You must know that that is a nonsensical argument.

I wasn't arguing, I was asking a simple question.

 

[Larniavc]

This whole entire thing feels utterly pointless, not a single person has engaged with the positions posed in the OP.

This may be an indication that the problem is the question. It’s not something most non religious people worry about.

 

[Bradskii]

Well you answered my question directly. Your morality is based on "Giving for the sake of getting something in return".

Is there any point of me posting anything to you as an explanation when it is completely ignored?

'I'll buy him a drink with no expectation of him needing to pay me back.'

 

[YahuahSaves]

Is there any point of me posting anything to you as an explanation when it is completely ignored?

'I'll buy him a drink with no expectation of him needing to pay me back.'

Your explanation involved strings, therefore, there are expectations after a very limited time-frame.

My reason for getting to the nitty-gritty of your idea of morality is because the OP asked what a secular person base's their morality upon. You've answered it more clearly with your above post than you have previously.

 

[Bradskii]

So you help others for the sake of appearances as well?

You don't seem to understand that there are benefits to all when they see an altruistic act. Which is what I described - following the golden rule, which I think you mentioned earlier. Maybe you think I should have sent the guy packing. But me, I thought that if someone was short of a few dollars then I should treat him as I would like to be treated. So I help out.

And as I wouldn't like to be taken for a ride, then I wouldn't do that to him if the situation was reversed. But I won't accept it if he does sponge off me. And others will note the fact as well and be wary of him.

Are any of us doing anything simply for our own benefit? No. We are helping others. Up to the point where we think somebody is taking advantage. Maybe you are different. Maybe you help out and keep on helping even when it's obvious that you're being played. Go for it.

In the meantime I'll have to ask you again not to treat straightforward answers as simplistic explanations. It makes you look like you haven't thought very much about the answers.

 

[Bradskii]

reciprocal altruism
noun

Used in biology to describe the phenomenon of two animals acting in ways which mutually benefit one another.

The expectation of a return is not a requirement.

Reciprocal altruism in bats and other mammals

In this paper five conditions are specified which must be met before reciprocal altruism, rather than kin selection, should be invoked. Four purported…

www.sciencedirect.com

Unless you think that, for example, bats have deep and meaningful thoughts about who they help and why. You shouldn't blindly make claims about the biological and evolutionary advantage of what is termed reciprocal altruism without at least some cursory investigation.

 

[Bradskii]

Your explanation involved strings, therefore, there are expectations after a very limited time-frame.

There are no expectations. The help I give is given without any. It only stops when I feel I am being taken advantage of. Maybe you can't see the difference. I can't help you if you can't. Maybe you'd keep giving to the guy who keeps asking, even when you know he's taking advantage.

How about I make that a question to see if you understand. You know the guy can afford to buy a beer - he earns plenty. More than you. But he turns up short one time. You buy him a drink. The following night, the same thing. How long does this go on before you call a halt?

Let me know if you are doing it altruistically or with an expectation of some return benefit.

 

[YahuahSaves]

You don't seem to understand that there are benefits to all when they see an altruistic act.

But you didn't say altruistic you said quote:

reciprocal altruism
noun

Used in biology to describe the phenomenon of two animals acting in ways which mutually benefit one another.

Altruism is defined by selflessness, per the definition below:

altruistic
adjective

1) Regardful of others; beneficent; unselfish; -- opposed to egoistic or selfish.
2) Regardful of others; beneficent; unselfish
showing unselfish concern for the welfare of others

Your definition of "selflessness" has its limits, and is certainly not without personal gain:

And the results are noted. Others see me as being helpful and I benefit. They see the guy who is sponging off others and someone to be avoided.

following the golden rule, which I think you mentioned earlier.

This is the golden rule I mentioned earlier (which has the opposite agenda than your explanation):

Luke 6:27-36
Love for Enemies

27 “But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. 28 Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. 31 Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

Maybe you think I should have sent the guy packing.

Where have I said I think that? ^

But me, I thought that if someone was short of a few dollars then I should treat him as I would like to be treated. So I help out

You "help out" but per your explanation, a friend, and only if you will receive repayment in future.

Are any of us doing anything simply for our own benefit? No. We are helping others. Up to the point where we think somebody is taking advantage. Maybe you are different. Maybe you help out and keep on helping even when it's obvious that you're being played. Go for it.

Exactly why biblical morality is the only source of morality that does not take "personal benefit" into account. Do I want to love my enemies? It goes against my flesh to do so, unfortunately, I've had quite an eye-opener this past year since coming to Christ, what God actually expects me to do. I've had to do things for people and help them out when I would rather get as far away from them as possible. It's most definitely a learning curve trying to be "selfless".

In the meantime I'll have to ask you again not to treat straightforward answers as simplistic explanations. It makes you look like you haven't thought very much about the answers.

You treat a straightforward question with extended explanations that point to a simplistic answer...perhaps you need to rethink your example.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The expectation of a return is not a requirement.

Reciprocal altruism in bats and other mammals

In this paper five conditions are specified which must be met before reciprocal altruism, rather than kin selection, should be invoked. Four purported…

www.sciencedirect.com

Unless you think that, for example, bats have deep and meaningful thoughts about who they help and why. You shouldn't blindly make claims about the biological and evolutionary advantage of what is termed reciprocal altruism without at least some cursory investigation.

Then don't use terms that describe biology instead of human interaction. regardless, it seems like you were essentially saying "I'll scratch your back, if you'll scratch mine".

 

[Bradskii]

You "help out" but per your explanation, a friend, and only if you will receive repayment in future.

You seem intent on ignoring what I say (so I'm close to calling this discussion at an end). There is no expectation. Only a rejection of future help if I feel at some point that I am being taken advantage of. I really can't make that clearer.

And the question will remain: How long do you help out before you think you are being made to look foolish?

 

[Bradskii]

Then don't use terms that describe biology instead of human interaction. regardless, it seems like you were essentially saying "I'll scratch your back, if you'll scratch mine".

The concept is evolutionary driven. So I will use any example from biology that suits the explanation. Bats have no expectation. But they will cease to give if there is no reciprocal action. As will I. As will you. I'm just waiting for you to confirm that. Unless you want to confess that you'll keep giving to those who are taking advantage of you.

It's your call. I look forward to it.

 

[YahuahSaves]

How about I make that a question to see if you understand. You know the guy can afford to buy a beer - he earns plenty. More than you. But he turns up short one time. You buy him a drink. The following night, the same thing. How long does this go on before you call a halt?

Let me know if you are doing it altruistically or with an expectation of some return benefit.

Refer to post #175

I've been taken advantage of plenty, before and after coming to Christ. The difference is Christ works in the heart of a person.

Would you consider this comment to be "morally" right?

And the results are noted. Others see me as being helpful and I benefit. They see the guy who is sponging off others and someone to be avoided.

 

[Bradskii]

Notwithstanding that you used the term biology to describe reciprocal altruism (with which I have no problem as the concept is evolutionary driven), I will use any example from biology that suits the explanation. Bats have no expectation. But they will cease to give if there is no reciprocal action. As will I. As will you. I'm just waiting for you to confirm that. Unless you want to confess that you'll keep giving to those who are taking advantage of you.

It's your call. I look forward to it.