As a Christian: do you believe we exist beyond the death of our physical body?

[ViaCrucis]

By 'how is this functionally different', do you mean, "how does this make any difference to us here in this temporal realm?"

But fwiw, the notion of soul sleep is only temporal thinking applied to what is hard to understand, that there is a resurrection at the end, "so shall we ever be with the Lord", thinking something has to fill the gap between death and the resurrection. You do the same thing, only you have them subject to the passage of time, while with the Lord, rather than in Sheol.

The reason I believe that there is an intermediate state is because we see John in the Revelation talking about the saints in heaven in a state of waiting, they are in a state of expectation and anticipation. And this has been the historic view of the Church for the last two millennia. To say that a person falls asleep in the body and awakes in the resurrection is, essentially, "soul sleep".

As I said, I have no idea how the saints in heaven experience time; but I do struggle with the idea that they have already attained the final and beatific state; that one falls asleep in bodily death and awakes in the resurrection--the implications of that seem problematic to me.

I think the historic and traditional view that they experience the foretaste of future glory in a state of restful and blessed waiting to be a preferable position to hold. My intention in asking my question wasn't intended to be condemnatory, but rather genuine inquiry: I am struggling to understand the difference between this and "soul sleep"; as in essence both seem to be saying the same thing: there is no conscious experience of being with the Lord between death and resurrection, rendering the statement that we are present with the Lord while absent from the body untrue. And all language of expectation and anticipation is rendered meaningless. Like I said, that seems problematic to me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eleos1954]

Thanks for participating... would like to know your thoughts on the scriptures referenced in this POST

Matthew 10:28
King James Bible
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The "soul" and body are in hell (both in the grave). .... that is they are dead ... no long a living soul (person) but a NON-living person.

The witch of Endor .... we know there are existing fallen angels (demons) and are capable of creating great delusions.

The state of the dead is important .... those who believe we have a separate "spirit" of some kind ... will be led to believe all sorts of things, ie talking with the dead (Spiritism) .... they will tend to seek out "mediums" (just like Saul did). Believing of a "immortal spirit" (Spiritism) ... Denys the resurrection(s) ... if we are immortal and our "spirit" goes flying off somewhere .... then there is no reason for Jesus. And no .... it's not the raising of the body .... we get new
bodies. The bodies we have now are corruptible (we turn to dust-cease to exist) .... when resurrected we will get new bodies .... incorruptible ones. Spiritism also then puts forth the diabolical teaching of a "burning hell" (for entirety) .... thus making God into some kind of a sadistic monster.

1 Corinthians 15:54

King James Bible
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


All are mortal (subject to death) and remain that way until Jesus returns.

The grave is non-existence of our entire person ..... It is termed as sleep .... because Jesus has the power of resurrection. He has the power over life (eternal life) or death (eternal death) for eternity. It's not difficult to understand.

Spiritism (immortal "soul") is perpetuating the original lie of the devil .... "you will not surely die" .... and many "christian" churches are perpetuating this very same lie. Wake up!

God said eat of the tree and you will die .... satan said you will not surely die .... who are you going to believe God or satan?

Do not be deceived .... believe God .... yes .... we surely die (in totality) .... but will one day be resurrected to eternal life. AMEN!!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

The reason I believe that there is an intermediate state is because we see John in the Revelation talking about the saints in heaven in a state of waiting, they are in a state of expectation and anticipation. And this has been the historic view of the Church for the last two millennia. To say that a person falls asleep in the body and awakes in the resurrection is, essentially, "soul sleep".

Hmmm. I'll have to look into that. The "How long, Oh Lord?" I recall, is about the souls of the martyrs being told to wait for vengeance (though as I reread that, the wording there may be relevant), or there are in places other than Revelation the eager expectation and even groaning until that very thing —when we are clothed with our Heavenly Dwelling, when the sons of God are revealed. What is your reference, though? You appear to have a good argument!

As I said, I have no idea how the saints in heaven experience time; but I do struggle with the idea that they have already attained the final and beatific state; that one falls asleep in bodily death and awakes in the resurrection--the implications of that seem problematic to me.

I think the historic and traditional view that they experience the foretaste of future glory in a state of restful and blessed waiting to be a preferable position to hold. My intention in asking my question wasn't intended to be condemnatory, but rather genuine inquiry: I am struggling to understand the difference between this and "soul sleep"; as in essence both seem to be saying the same thing: there is no conscious experience of being with the Lord between death and resurrection, rendering the statement that we are present with the Lord while absent from the body untrue. And all language of expectation and anticipation is rendered meaningless. Like I said, that seems problematic to me.

I have my own problems with it, too, but so far it is the one that makes the most sense to me.

As for 2 Corinthians 5:6, the NIV renders it like this: "6 Therefore we...know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord." It is saying that being clothed in THIS body means we are away from the Lord. It is not saying, as you seem to think, that being present with the Lord means being absent from the glorified body. But maybe you are referring to another passage that hasn't come to my mind.

 

[Saint Steven]

The reason I believe that there is an intermediate state is because we see John in the Revelation talking about the saints in heaven in a state of waiting, they are in a state of expectation and anticipation. And this has been the historic view of the Church for the last two millennia. To say that a person falls asleep in the body and awakes in the resurrection is, essentially, "soul sleep".

Wouldn't "a state of expectation and anticipation" be antithetical to "sleep"?

Oops, I see. You are making a point against soul sleep. Sorry.

 

[returntosender]

Updated: the poll didn't publish in the original thread.

I'm interested to know how many Christians believe in an afterlife? I thought it would be interesting to spin-off from my thread Here

My Grandmother was Christian and believed when we die we go to the grave until resurrection. I was taught this, but I've had too many experiences to accept this is 100% accurate. The Hebrew word Sheol has different meanings that was the result of changes over the centuries.

P.s. if you think I need to add another answer to the poll let me know. I put down the most relevant.

I'm confused with the question.
as christians believing in eternal life in heaven. How can we not believe in life after death. Maybe ask which do you believe happens to you after death.

 

[eleos1954]

There are a range of biblical interpretations/opinions on that. Which one is "God's Word"?

When one searches the Bible on sleep, slept there are many, many, many verses to support dormant in the grave (sleep) .... there are very few that could be (and are) interpreted to support something otherwise.

Here's a few (there are more)

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sleep,-And-Death

 

[DarylFawcett]

But I'd argue that, yes, on the basis of what we read in the Revelation and in Hebrews it is safe to say that they are aware of things here.

Then how do you explain Psalms 146:4 that reads, "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"?

If their thoughts perish when they die, then how can they be aware of anything after death?

 

[DarylFawcett]

When one searches the Bible on sleep, slept there are many, many, many verses to support dormant in the grave (sleep) .... there are very few that could be (and are) interpreted to support something otherwise.

This means that those other few references are probably not being interpreted properly, otherwise you have the Bible contradicting itself. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Then how do you explain Psalms 146:4 that reads, "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"?

If their thoughts perish when they die, then how can they be aware of anything after death?

Their current, temporal, thinking is over with. Their way of thinking, their trends, their notions of truth, gone...

This thinking we do now can hardly compare to what and how we think after we see him as he is. Death is not just done away with, but "swallowed up"

 

[eleos1954]

This means that those other few references are probably not being interpreted properly, otherwise you have the Bible contradicting itself. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.

That's correct .... that's why we must search His Word as a whole.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then how do you explain Psalms 146:4 that reads, "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"?

If their thoughts perish when they die, then how can they be aware of anything after death?

When a ruler dies whatever he planned to do or carry out, his thoughts, die with him. If I intend to do this or that thing in life, when I die, I can't very well do it anymore.

I don't see how this is relevant to the question of consciousness between death and resurrection. When a person dies their body returns ashes to ashes, and all that they wanted to do can't be done. The whole point of this passage is that human beings are mortal, and therefore we should not put our trust in them and in their plans and purposes (Psalm 146:3), but rather trust in God, whose purposes will be carried out for He is Immortal, Sovereign, and Lord over all things (Psalm 146:5-10).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hmmm. I'll have to look into that. The "How long, Oh Lord?" I recall, is about the souls of the martyrs being told to wait for vengeance (though as I reread that, the wording there may be relevant), or there are in places other than Revelation the eager expectation and even groaning until that very thing —when we are clothed with our Heavenly Dwelling, when the sons of God are revealed. What is your reference, though? You appear to have a good argument!

"How long, O Lord?" is the major part of it, but the language of expectation such as you reference here from Romans 8 plays a role. Creation longs and groans for that day, even as we ourselves do--so resurrection will happen at a specific time, at Christ's return in glory (1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) On the Last and Final Day (John 6:39-40).

I have my own problems with it, too, but so far it is the one that makes the most sense to me.

As for 2 Corinthians 5:6, the NIV renders it like this: "6 Therefore we...know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord." It is saying that being clothed in THIS body means we are away from the Lord. It is not saying, as you seem to think, that being present with the Lord means being absent from the glorified body. But maybe you are referring to another passage that hasn't come to my mind.

At the resurrection we are re-united with our body, for the body is sown mortal and raised immortal; sown in dishonor and raised in honor, sown soulish but raised spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). At Christ's appearing He will transform this lowly body of ours to be like His glorious body (Philippians 3:21). If we are absent from the body, then it is from the body we are absent; if the saints in heaven have by some riddle of time, space, and eternity already exist in the End where they have been raised up already then they aren't absent from the body at all.

For when the Lord returns in glory the dead shall be raised, and then the souls of those who belong to Christ shall be reunited with the body--now glorified, raised in honor, in incorruption, and in immortality and glory everlasting. On the Day when Christ returns, and God makes all things new. When at long last, "Death is swallowed up in Victory".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Der Alte]

Then how do you explain Psalms 146:4 that reads, "His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish"?
If their thoughts perish when they die, then how can they be aware of anything after death?

That is not the only vs.

JPS Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Proverbs 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

 

[DarylFawcett]

Their current, temporal, thinking is over with. Their way of thinking, their trends, their notions of truth, gone...

This thinking we do now can hardly compare to what and how we think after we see him as he is. Death is not just done away with, but "swallowed up"

Our thoughts/thinking that ends at death, resumes again at the resurrection when death will be "swallowed up" in victory as Christ awakes us from our sleep of death.

Ephesians 5:14 KJV says, "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

The above one can be taken in a spiritual sense, however, the one below can only be taken in a literal sense.

In John 11:11 KJV Jesus says, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Even Jesus spoke of death as a sleep.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Our thoughts/thinking that ends at death, resumes again at the resurrection when death will be "swallowed up" in victory as Christ awakes us from our sleep of death.

Ephesians 5:14 KJV says, "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

The above one can be taken in a spiritual sense, however, the one below can only be taken in a literal sense.

In John 11:11 KJV Jesus says, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Even Jesus spoke of death as a sleep.

That death is called "sleep" isn't under contention. That it is used a euphemism for death, and that the "sleep" is of the body in the earth, not a "soul sleep" is readily and well understood in historic Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mark Quayle]

if the saints in heaven have by some riddle of time, space, and eternity already exist in the End where they have been raised up already then they aren't absent from the body at all.

They are absent from this MORTAL flesh body, which is what the text is referring to. Get me?

But I admit I could be wrong. As with all such things, the fat lady ain't sung yet, but I wish she'd hurry up.

 

[Saint Steven]

When one searches the Bible on sleep, slept there are many, many, many verses to support dormant in the grave (sleep) .... there are very few that could be (and are) interpreted to support something otherwise.

Here's a few (there are more)

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sleep,-And-Death

I would say that most often a reference to a dead person as asleep is a view from the land of the living, not the realm of the dead in the afterlife.

Probably the best policy to accept everyone's right to their own view. Or if you prefer, we could play King of the Hill. - LOL

Another study idea is to check out the 29 references to the "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation. No one sleeping there that I recall.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In John 11:11 KJV Jesus says, These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Even Jesus spoke of death as a sleep.

Do you believe that God can speak to us according to our ability to understand, without lying?

 

[DarylFawcett]

Do you believe that God can speak to us according to our ability to understand, without lying?

The function of the Holy Spirit is to guide us into all truth, not lies, therefore, if we are truly willing to believe the Scriptures, and not man's traditions, then the answer is yes.

 

[YahuahSaves]

@eleos1954 can you please transfer your post #82 to the thread I referenced so I can respond? I don’t want this thread to be off-topic