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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

2022 is America's deadliest year for mass shootings.

Nithavela

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The point remains: people who buy their guns legally you don't have to worry about killing a bunch of people the vast vast majority of the time. If someone is hell-bent on killing people, you are not going to stop them even if you took every single gun out of the US. I saw some heinous stories in Europe about people going on stabbing sprees.
I can assure you that those "stabbing sprees" are far rarer than the shootings in the US, and also less lethal.

In 2016, someone attacked people in a train near the german city of Würzburg with a knife and an axe. He wounded 5 people and killed none. Can you imagine how that tally would have been if he had an AR-15 or a pistol?

Also, all those illegal guns you have floating around? Mostly stolen from homes where they were bought legally.
 
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Desk trauma

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ThatRobGuy

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Gang violence accounts for most US mass shootings. And it's hard to tell groups of low income people to cut it out with the gangs. They don't seem to want to listen.

...I don't know if it's because there's not enough opportunities to gain wealth in the USA..? Or if that's just the style of life that's preferred by some.

I don't think it's a preferred lifestyle by any stretch...

I think it is the lack of opportunity that's the main culprit with regards to gang activity.

It's not as if your average gang members are "raking in the cash" from their illegal exploits, but when the only alternative is "you can bag groceries for $18k a year", the "you can be a spoke in the wheel in a drug enterprise for $36k a year" probably seems pretty tempting for disenfranchised youth.
 
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Desk trauma

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Of course, there are counterexamples. But the pattern is pretty clear.
It is, most of the high profile/high body count mass shootings are carried out with legally obtained weapons.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Defund the police, liberal prosecuters who do not protect the public, and a dysfunctional mental health system.

But how does that apply to prevention of these shootings?

While I'd agree that certain liberal prosecutors are far too eager to "let people off the hook for certain crimes in order to appear progressive", that's dealing with the situation after the crime has already happened.

Defunding the police (which is a sentiment I disagree with btw) isn't relevant, because a lot of these mass shootings are carried out by people who the police could do nothing about. If a deranged person without a criminal history goes on a shooting spree one day, what could the police have done? I'm to understand that "preventatively removing firearms from people we think *may* be a potential threat" is a big no-no. If one opposes red flag laws, then it really doesn't matter if you have 1 cop or 10,000 cops, they can't take the person's guns away until they actually "do something" with them.

Repairing the mental health system requires funding. Funding that many pro-gun advocates don't want to take part in. If one's answer to the premise of increasing public healthcare spending is "no, I don't wanna...that's socialism", then they forfeit the right to complain about the current state of healthcare in the US. Plain & simple.

The fact is, many mentally unstable people can't hold down good jobs due their mental instability, which means they can't get health insurance, which means their conditions will go untreated. Would you be willing to pay a couple extra bucks per paycheck in order to medically cover those folks so they can get the meds and help they need which could be the difference between going to the local pharmacy to get bipolar meds, instead of heading to the local gun store to make a purchase?
 
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disciple Clint

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and guns. Its too late to talk about prosecution once a school kid has a bullet in its brain - prosecute to as fully as you like and the family will still have lost their child while gun companies continue to sell more lethal weapons.

And removing the police? Seriously - 99.9% of people would think that insane. What possible evidence do you have to support that prospect being a good idea.
No of those were ever good ideas and we can clearly see the results of liberal policies.
 
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disciple Clint

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But how does that apply to prevention of these shootings?

While I'd agree that certain liberal prosecutors are far too eager to "let people off the hook for certain crimes in order to appear progressive", that's dealing with the situation after the crime has already happened.

Defunding the police (which is a sentiment I disagree with btw) isn't relevant, because a lot of these mass shootings are carried out by people who the police could do nothing about. If a deranged person without a criminal history goes on a shooting spree one day, what could the police have done? I'm to understand that "preventatively removing firearms from people we think *may* be a potential threat" is a big no-no. If one opposes red flag laws, then it really doesn't matter if you have 1 cop or 10,000 cops, they can't take the person's guns away until they actually "do something" with them.

Repairing the mental health system requires funding. Funding that many pro-gun advocates don't want to take part in. If one's answer to the premise of increasing public healthcare spending is "no, I don't wanna...that's socialism", then they forfeit the right to complain about the current state of healthcare in the US. Plain & simple.

The fact is, many mentally unstable people can't hold down good jobs due their mental instability, which means they can't get health insurance, which means their conditions will go untreated. Would you be willing to pay a couple extra bucks per paycheck in order to medically cover those folks so they can get the meds and help they need which could be the difference between going to the local pharmacy to get bipolar meds, instead of heading to the local gun store to make a purchase?
If criminals who commit violent acts were punished and kept in jail the public would not have the same people over and over again shooting people, this continues to happen because they know nothing is going to happen to them and they will be back on the streets in a few days so they can shoot someone else. Since we now have fewer police on the job and the are not being supported by the justice system we have fewer arrests again this allows the same people to shoot people any time they like, who is going to stop them? We are not talking about just mass shooting in the numbers that were posted. We have health insurance to covers mental illness we just do not have a system in place to deliver the required help. And yes it would be much less expensive to treat people than to deal with the crime that results from not treating them. By the way most of the killings are done by people who do not go to a gun store and buy a gun. Look at the cities where the killings are happening, gun laws do not work, it is obvious for anyone who looks at the facts.
 
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Whyayeman

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Go on. I could be wrong. Yet gun ownership in America is staggering to the rest of the world. Here are some slightly out of date numbers from Wikipedia:

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[7] U.S civilians own 393 million guns. American civilians own more guns "than those held by civilians in the other top 25 countries combined.[8]

American civilians own nearly 100 times as many firearms as the U.S. military and nearly 400 times as many as law enforcement."[9] Americans bought more than 2 million guns in May 2018,[9] more than twice the total number of arms possessed by law enforcement agencies in the United States combined.[9] In April and May 2018, U.S. civilians bought 4.7 million guns, which is more than all the firearms stockpiled by the United States military.[9] In 2017, Americans bought 25.2 million guns, which is 2.5 million more guns than possessed by every law enforcement agency in the world put together.[9] Between 2012 and 2017, U.S. civilians bought 135 million guns, 2 million more guns than the combined stockpile of all the world's armed forces.
[9]
 
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Nithavela

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It is probably true that there are more guns in American civilians' hands than in the rest of the world put together.
"Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[7]
There you go.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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If criminals who commit violent acts were punished and kept in jail the public would not have the same people over and over again shooting people, this continues to happen because they know nothing is going to happen to them and they will be back on the streets in a few days so they can shoot someone else.
That's another thing that would require a tax increase.

As it is, we already have the highest per capita number of people incarcerated
1672327098121.png


We even beat out the two commie bloc countries that people often make "gulag jokes" about.

"More Jail" hasn't been a particularly effective strategy for us, and has produced a pattern of recidivism. If you're not going to do anything for the people while they're in and focus on some rehabilitative aspects, there's no reason to expect that their behavior will be any better when they leave. A person with no substantive opportunities is going to be in the exact same position when they get out in 5-10 years.

It makes people shutter to think of doing something like Norway does, and is often met with scoffs and snark about how "that looks like an apartment, they're being too soft on them, the bad guys deserve harsh punishment and conditions"

But their end results are better.
In the US, 76% of prisoners released are back in jail again within 5 years. In Norway, that number is 20%.

Since we now have fewer police on the job and the are not being supported by the justice system we have fewer arrests again this allows the same people to shoot people any time they like, who is going to stop them?
Police are often ill-equipped to prevent shootings, only respond to them. It's simple logistics. Even if we quadrupled the size of the police force in the US, they still can't be everywhere at once. Unless you want a full-blown police state?
We have health insurance to covers mental illness we just do not have a system in place to deliver the required help.
"We have health insurance" is a bit misleading. People who can hold down steady jobs that offer benefits have health insurance. And even many of those have high deductibles and out of pocket thresholds to meet before the insurance starts chipping in. Even if one is fortunate enough to have one of the retail jobs that offer a health plan, trying to meet a $2500 deductible and cover a $50 copay on monthly prescriptions is a daunting task for a person on a very fixed income.

And we have some free clinics in low income areas, but those hardly fill the gaps. If you're a broke mentally ill person, trying to find someone to give you a ride so you can wait 3 hours to see a nurse practitioner (with little to no training in psychiatry) so they can give you an Ativan and send you on your way is hardly suitable.
By the way most of the killings are done by people who do not go to a gun store and buy a gun. Look at the cities where the killings are happening, gun laws do not work, it is obvious for anyone who looks at the facts.
Almost every gun was legally purchased at some point if you trace it back far enough, it's not as if gang members are constructing Glock 9mm and 38 specials in their garage. If the problem is that unscrupulous people are selling guns to other unscrupulous people without a paper trail, that sounds like a justification for some restrictions on private sales, yes?

Saying this as a person who enjoys guns and owns several (from handguns all the way up a few decked out AR's), people are looking for a "best of both worlds" option where one doesn't exist. They want them to "crack down on the bad guys ability to get a gun", but refuse to entertain any law or measure that would inconvenience their gun buying experience in any way or impose anything they see as a "hassle".
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Go on. I could be wrong. Yet gun ownership in America is staggering to the rest of the world. Here are some slightly out of date numbers from Wikipedia:

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[7] U.S civilians own 393 million guns. American civilians own more guns "than those held by civilians in the other top 25 countries combined.[8]

American civilians own nearly 100 times as many firearms as the U.S. military and nearly 400 times as many as law enforcement."[9] Americans bought more than 2 million guns in May 2018,[9] more than twice the total number of arms possessed by law enforcement agencies in the United States combined.[9] In April and May 2018, U.S. civilians bought 4.7 million guns, which is more than all the firearms stockpiled by the United States military.[9] In 2017, Americans bought 25.2 million guns, which is 2.5 million more guns than possessed by every law enforcement agency in the world put together.[9] Between 2012 and 2017, U.S. civilians bought 135 million guns, 2 million more guns than the combined stockpile of all the world's armed forces.
[9]
While we do have a lot of guns, and we do have a lot of people with guns that shouldn't have them, and we do need to have some common sense restrictions like universal background checks and restrictions on private sales...

I've never found the "X number of guns per Y number of citizens" a particularly meaningful statistic, as it ropes in a lot of hobbyists and enthusiasts who own several. And if a bad guy or unstable guy is a gun owner, that's the real problem, whether that bad guy owns 2 or 20 isn't terribly relevant as they've only got two hands.

I think the "percentage of households with guns" is a far more meaningful stat to get a better picture of the situation

While the US still tops the list with this statistic as well, the contrast isn't as drastic.
1672329045302.png
 
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RocksInMyHead

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Even if one is fortunate enough to have one of the retail jobs that offer a health plan, trying to meet a $2500 deductible and cover a $50 copay on monthly prescriptions is a daunting task for a person on a very fixed income.
Ha! $2500 deductible? That's generally the "low deductible" option. I know plenty of people whose best option (or at least the option that they could afford) has closer to a $10000 deductible. It's basically only useful for catastrophic injury. And I recently found out that my sister is paying about $600/month out of pocket for her migraine medication, without which she would spend several days per month completely incapacitated.
 
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Whyayeman

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I think the "percentage of households with guns" is a far more meaningful stat to get a better picture of the situation
How does this give us a better picture of the situation of 'America's deadliest year for mass shootings?'

If we are to come anywhere near an understanding of the appalling truth about America - that Americans kill one another with a readiness never seen outside a was zone - debating gun ownership will not help much. America needs a national discussion about what the root causes of the slaughter might be.

Some suggestions:
Poor access to mental health treatments; there is an obvious connection between mass shootings and mental illness
Why mentally ill people in America resort to killing people - a peculiarly American phenomenon, not unknown elsewhere but comparatively rare
How ridiculously easy the law has made it for mentally ill people to access weapons so lethal that they are not available anywhere else
Why the American gun lobby has such a firm grip on the legislature that no effective gun control legislation ever succeeds.

(Referrals to the second Amendment are not much help in any discussion, as I have discovered in earlier discussions of the topic.)
 
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ThatRobGuy

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How does this give us a better picture of the situation of 'America's deadliest year for mass shootings?'

If we are to come anywhere near an understanding of the appalling truth about America - that Americans kill one another with a readiness never seen outside a was zone - debating gun ownership will not help much. America needs a national discussion about what the root causes of the slaughter might be.

Some suggestions:
Poor access to mental health treatments; there is an obvious connection between mass shootings and mental illness
Why mentally ill people in America resort to killing people - a peculiarly American phenomenon, not unknown elsewhere but comparatively rare
How ridiculously easy the law has made it for mentally ill people to access weapons so lethal that they are not available anywhere else
Why the American gun lobby has such a firm grip on the legislature that no effective gun control legislation ever succeeds.

(Referrals to the second Amendment are not much help in any discussion, as I have discovered in earlier discussions of the topic.)
You had posted the stats about how many guns their are for the entire population. (393 million guns for the 330 million people)

The number of households with guns is a stat that can help put some other things in perspective.

If it were purely a problem of "a lot of guns being out there", then I would expect the household stats to be proportional to the gun homicide rates. If we're talking about a person with unsecured firearms in their home and someone getting their hands on a gun that shouldn't, whether that gun owner has 1 gun or 3 isn't really meaningful and isn't getting to the root of the issues.

While it's true that the US has more guns out there by a lot, in terms of the number of households that have guns available, we're not that far ahead of Finland. Yet, Finland is much safer than we are. Norway has more households with guns than Canada, yet Norway has a much lower murder rate.

I'd suggest that with our current (weak in many ways) laws, even if our "households with guns" and "guns per 100k citizens" stats were identical to Switzerland or Iceland, we'd still have a much larger problem with gun crimes and murder rates than those two nations do.

Even domestically, there's not a huge correlation between the gun ownership rates and homicide rates.

 
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Whyayeman

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You had posted the stats about how many guns their are for the entire population. (393 million guns for the 330 million people)

The number of households with guns is a stat that can help put some other things in perspective.

If it were purely a problem of "a lot of guns being out there", then I would expect the household stats to be proportional to the gun homicide rates. If we're talking about a person with unsecured firearms in their home and someone getting their hands on a gun that shouldn't, whether that gun owner has 1 gun or 3 isn't really meaningful and isn't getting to the root of the issues.

While it's true that the US has more guns out there by a lot, in terms of the number of households that have guns available, we're not that far ahead of Finland. Yet, Finland is much safer than we are. Norway has more households with guns than Canada, yet Norway has a much lower murder rate.

I'd suggest that with our current (weak in many ways) laws, even if our "households with guns" and "guns per 100k citizens" stats were identical to Switzerland or Iceland, we'd still have a much larger problem with gun crimes and murder rates than those two nations do.

Even domestically, there's not a huge correlation between the gun ownership rates and homicide rates.

I agree about all that. These don't help to advance discussion about the catastrophic level of shooting sprees by the mentally ill - young men mainly. The debate here and elsewhere seems always to come down to gun ownership. As you rightly point out (and others before you too) the vast majority of gun owners are innocent of gun-related crime. The problem is that there is no effective support for the very few who find it in them to kill random strangers.

Until that is addressed there is unlikely to be much in the way of change.
 
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