BREAKING: Vatican dismisses Father Frank Pavone from priesthood

[chevyontheriver]

Were these righteous men abused, because they were obedient to their "superiors", or because they obeyed God?

Luk 11:49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,'
Luk 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation,
Luk 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it shall be required of this generation.

Nobody is killing Fr. Pavone. Nobody is restricting his speech even. It's about assignments. We might argue about the prudence of his superior's decisions, and I would say they were imprudent, but he is not being killed, or imprisoned, or even gagged.

 

[Michie]

It's said because they have misrepresented Catholicism in the past and now Pope Francis.

Go to Catholic sources for news about Catholicism and the Vatican.

I do and will continue to use LifeSite as well. But thanks for the advice.

 

[fide]

John of the Cross was placed under house arrest, not a prison cell.

Also, it wasn't because he was disobedient, but because what he wrote about contemplation
they had no clue about. What he got came from St Teresa of Avila, who also was brought
before the Spanish Inquisition. Thank God, one of the members of the inquisition panel,
was one of her fans.

And these distinctions that you see, show what exactly? That saints and other true prophets are actually received in accord with God's will? That God will is always aligned with the perceptions of bureaucrat "superiors" and He is honored best by following them into the ways of the world?

 

[fide]

Nobody is killing Fr. Pavone. Nobody is restricting his speech even. It's about assignments. We might argue about the prudence of his superior's decisions, and I would say they were imprudent, but he is not being killed, or imprisoned, or even gagged.

In the eyes of the world, is he being honored, or dishonored, by his obedience to God? Is the Church being honored? Is Christ being honored? Or is the world invited to see once more that the Church looks more and more like one more unjust organization of men. Reminds me of what I think it was Teresa's comment one time, "If God treats His friends this way, it is no wonder He has so few of them."

(That's something of a joke, I realize. I know of God's ways of inviting HIs righteous ones into the sufferings of His Son. If we die with Him, we will also live with Him. Injustice for the righteous only proves and judges the sins of the world. It is still, on the part of the world, wrong! And it is shameful when the Church is exposed as being so like the world!)

And no one YET is killing Pavone. This rise of injustice in the Church is only beginning.

 

[Michie]

Abp. Viganò: Fr. Pavone’s laicization is ‘unjust and illegitimate,' feeds 'a climate of terror' among clergy - LifeSite

Father Pavone ought to consider this shameful Vatican decision to be a source of pride.

www.lifesitenews.com

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And these distinctions that you see, show what exactly? That saints and other true prophets are actually received in accord with God's will? That God will is always aligned with the perceptions of bureaucrat "superiors" and He is honored best by following them into the ways of the world?

The distinctions were not about disobedience and sacrilege as in the case of Frank Pavone.

St John of the Cross was placed under house arrest by his order, The Carmelites, for the teachings
he and St Teresa of Avila were bring forth. His order had to study his writings and rescinded the
accusations of heresy against him and he was released. In fact, the Carmelites returned to their
original teachings because of what St John of the Cross taught.

Today, O'Carm and Discalced Carmelites use the writings of St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross
as well as other orders. Both are Doctors of the Catholic Church.

OCDS in my name is because I'm a member of the Discalced Carmelites, Secular (a third order).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Abp. Viganò: Fr. Pavone’s laicization is ‘unjust and illegitimate,' feeds 'a climate of terror' among clergy - LifeSite

Father Pavone ought to consider this shameful Vatican decision to be a source of pride.

www.lifesitenews.com

From the Lifesitenews article;

"The Bergoglian sect eclipses the Catholic Church with its arrogant occupation of leadership posts and scandalously abuses its authority"

LifeSiteNews has no clue about Catholicism and the statement above shows how they hate Pope Francis.

 

[chevyontheriver]

From the Lifesitenews article;

"The Bergoglian sect eclipses the Catholic Church with its arrogant occupation of leadership posts and scandalously abuses its authority"

LifeSiteNews has no clue about Catholicism and the statement above shows how they hate Pope Francis.

Sadly hatred seems to be a two way street, and a busy one at that. One that we should all turn off of to find another street.

 

[fide]

The distinctions were not about disobedience and sacrilege as in the case of Frank Pavone.

St John of the Cross was placed under house arrest by his order, The Carmelites, for the teachings
he and St Teresa of Avila were bring forth. His order had to study his writings and rescinded the
accusations of heresy against him and he was released. In fact, the Carmelites returned to their
original teachings because of what St John of the Cross taught.
.......

Your perspective on these things do not match with what I have read. The below is from:
Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, ICS Publications, Washington D.C. 1973
Translated by Kieran Kavanaugh, O.C.D and Otilio Rodriguez, O.C.D.
in their General Introduction, p.22:

In June of 1577, Ornaneto, the Nuncio who had been so friendly toward the Discalced, died. His death, together with the disturbing news that the Discalced had convened the Chapter at Almodovar, prompted the Calced to executed the resolutions of Piacenza. Thus during the night of December 2, 1577 a group of Calced Fathers, men-at-arms, and some seculars, seized Fray Juan and his companion to bring them to a Calced monastery. Fray John of the Cross was taken to Toledo where the acts of the Chapter of Piacenza were read to him and a complete renunciation of the Reform was demanded. If he refused to renounce the Reform, he would be declared a rebel. But Fray John of the Cross did not renounce it. He was keen-minded enough to distinguish properly in this maze of conflicting jurisdiction and conclude that the proscriptions of the Chapter were directed against the friars of Granada, Seville, and Penuela, and not against him, and that he had been at his post at the Incarnation by the orders of the Nuncio, which were still in effect. However, the tribunal called him both rebellious and contumacious and prescribed imprisonment.

Fray John was led to his prison cell, a little room originally intended as a closet, six feet wide and ten feet long. It had no window; the only opening was a slit high up in the wall. It was frightfully cold there in winter, and suffocating in summer. They deprived him of his hood and scapular as a token of punishment for his rebellion. His food was bread, sardines, and water. Three evenings a week he had to eat kneeling on the floor in the middle of the refectory. Then when the friars were finished their supper, his shoulders were bared and each member of the community struck him with a lash, some very vigorously, for the wounds he received world not heal properly for years. This scourging lasted for the time it takes to recite the Psalm Miserere. Since he continued in his refusal to renounce the Reform, they would then conduct him back to his bleak prison. No compassion could be shown him, for the Constitutions under the most severe penalties forbade one to show favor to a prisoner. After six months of prison life, the Saint was assigned a new warder. This one did manifest some elements of compassion; for instance, he gave him a change of clothes, and also furnished him with paper and ink, thus enabling him in these sad surroundings to write down the great lyric poems which, as a means of passing the time, he had been composing in his mind.

Taking advantage of the leniency of his new jailer, Fray John familiarized himself with every aspect of the monastery during his daily reprieves from the prison cell. On the night of August 16, 1578, in a manner some declare was miraculous, he managed to escape and find his way to the Discalced nuns in Toledo, who hid him from the search party. Eventually he was able to journey to El Calvario in the south of Spain, where he was safer and had the opportunity to restore his health.

I would call this imprisoned - and tortured, and severely punished - for the false charge of being "a rebel." That sounds like the charge against Pavone - rebellious, different, not a team player, disruptive, disobedient. [" rebellious and contumacious" - stubbornly or willfully disobedient to authority. Sound familiar?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

And yet that lisper Martin gets celebrated by the Vatican. Make it make sense.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And yet that lisper Martin gets celebrated by the Vatican. Make it makes sense.

I'm glad it makes sense to somebody. It's just a mess to me.

 

[fide]

I'm glad it makes sense to somebody. It's just a mess to me.

Faith assures us that it all makes sense to God. That is not a mere truism , and I believe God wants us to understand His ways, and His perspective on these confused and "messy" times. He did give us written testimony in the Book of Revelation - hard to understand, maybe so that we would be reduced to pleading for His grace that we might see that yes it is hard, but not impossible. I recommend to the whole Church to turn to His Holy Scripture, plead for the grace to hear, and to see, and to understand and to come into His Holy will.

 

[Michie]

Fr. Frank Pavone Laicized by Vatican - His Response & What Catholics Are Saying -

The Vatican dismissed Priests For Life founder and pro-life advocate Fr. Frank Pavone from the priesthood. Here's what Catholics are saying:

www.churchpop.com

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Your perspective on these things do not match with what I have read. The below is from:
Collected Works of St. John of the Cross, ICS Publications, Washington D.C. 1973
Translated by Kieran Kavanaugh, O.C.D and Otilio Rodriguez, O.C.D.
in their General Introduction, p.22:


I would call this imprisoned - and tortured, and severely punished - for the false charge of being "a rebel." That sounds like the charge against Pavone - rebellious, different, not a team player, disruptive, disobedient. [" rebellious and contumacious" - stubbornly or willfully disobedient to authority. Sound familiar?

I was going by what the Spiritual Assistants to my OCDS group has said about his imprisonment. It's harsh by
our standards, but compared to prisons in that time, it was essentially house arrest. He was considered disobedient
to his superiors it is true, but he was true to the Church and the Bishop. If anything, it was the superiors of the
Carmelite Order who had gone astray from Church teaching, which was later confirmed.

Keep in mind as well, that this was the time of the Spanish Inquisition, and people feared being brought before
them. St Teresa of Avila herself had to appear before the Ecclesiastical Court.

Also, his teachings as St Teresa of Avila's were considered rebellious, until they were explained. The leaders of his
former order to read his teachings and heard him. It changed their attitudes toward St John and St Teresa.

Today, the O'Carms use both St John of the Cross' writings and St Teresa's.

The bottom line is, that there is no comparison of Frank Pavone's sacrilege and disobedianece to St John of the Cross.

 

[BAChristian]

I have not really been following this but something that always comes to my mind when reading about the followers of the Church and their opinions on the issues within the Church is what a Catholic layperson wrote during the worst times of the Church back, I believe, in the Middle Ages. I can't remember her name, but she wrote a book of poems and she prayed for the Pope and the leaders of the Church. She never gave up on the Church because she said that the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

My suggestion, if I may, is to continullay pray for our leaders. Pray that the Holy Spirit convicts them. But also pray that the clergy will respond in humility and obediance to the Church.

Just from what I've read so far, I'm sure there's more to this subject than what anyone of us know (or will know). I like to compare it to, "he said, she said, and the truth."

It's important for us to maintain unity (as our name means) in times like this as to not allow Satan and his forces to gain more of a foothold within our Lord's Holy Church.

This is my first post on here in 10 years. I hope it's fitting. Everyone have a Blessed Christmas.

 

[fide]

I was going by what the Spiritual Assistants to my OCDS group has said about his imprisonment. It's harsh by
our standards, but compared to prisons in that time, it was essentially house arrest. He was considered disobedient
to his superiors it is true, but he was true to the Church and the Bishop. If anything, it was the superiors of the
Carmelite Order who had gone astray from Church teaching, which was later confirmed.

Keep in mind as well, that this was the time of the Spanish Inquisition, and people feared being brought before
them. St Teresa of Avila herself had to appear before the Ecclesiastical Court.

Also, his teachings as St Teresa of Avila's were considered rebellious, until they were explained. The leaders of his
former order to read his teachings and heard him. It changed their attitudes toward St John and St Teresa.

Today, the O'Carms use both St John of the Cross' writings and St Teresa's.

The bottom line is, that there is no comparison of Frank Pavone's sacrilege and disobedianece to St John of the Cross.

I'd just like to point out that the misleading description of John of the Cross's "house arrest," given by your "Spiritual Assistants," is an example of clericalism: "the clergy can do no wrong" - hence the overzealous overreaction to any perceived "disobedience" to a duly promoted "Superior" - such as was dispensed to Frank Pavone. Pavone was obedient to his original superior - was that first superior unfaithful to the proper discernment of the Church? Could he not see that Pavone ought to be a normal parish priest? Was he failing his duty to assert a Superior's superiority over Pavone's "mere preference", which the other "Superiors" all discerned? I know: I'm being sarcastic, which is unfitting. I am frustrated by the clericalism which still pervades this Church, and leads many - clergy and laity - to a false sense of obedience, and through that, injustice.

John suffered harsh treatment: "Three evenings a week he had to eat kneeling on the floor in the middle of the refectory. Then when the friars were finished their supper, his shoulders were bared and each member of the community struck him with a lash, some very vigorously, for the wounds he received world not heal properly for years. This scourging lasted for the time it takes to recite the Psalm Miserere." Clericalism justifies itself, and the Church suffers.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'd just like to point out that the misleading description of John of the Cross's "house arrest," given by your "Spiritual Assistants," is an example of clericalism: "the clergy can do no wrong" - hence the overzealous overreaction to any perceived "disobedience" to a duly promoted "Superior" - such as was dispensed to Frank Pavone. Pavone was obedient to his original superior - was that first superior unfaithful to the proper discernment of the Church? Could he not see that Pavone ought to be a normal parish priest? Was he failing his duty to assert a Superior's superiority over Pavone's "mere preference", which the other "Superiors" all discerned? I know: I'm being sarcastic, which is unfitting. I am frustrated by the clericalism which still pervades this Church, and leads many - clergy and laity - to a false sense of obedience, and through that, injustice.

John suffered harsh treatment: "Three evenings a week he had to eat kneeling on the floor in the middle of the refectory. Then when the friars were finished their supper, his shoulders were bared and each member of the community struck him with a lash, some very vigorously, for the wounds he received world not heal properly for years. This scourging lasted for the time it takes to recite the Psalm Miserere." Clericalism justifies itself, and the Church suffers.

I think you're using the term "house arrest," as compared to today.

It was not. It was compared to imprisonment during St John's time.

Back in his day, the penalty for stealing a sheep was disembowelment. Heresy often
called for death of the person.

So, what St John had, was house arrest compared to the levels given during his time.

We were studying the "Living Flaming Of Love" which he created while in prison and had
committed to memory and wrote it after he was set free.

St John was never removed from the priesthood, Frank Pavone was. He apparently did
something bad that caused such a move by both his Bishop and the Vatican itself.

 

[fide]

I think you're using the term "house arrest," as compared to today.

It was not. It was compared to imprisonment during St John's time.

Back in his day, the penalty for stealing a sheep was disembowelment. Heresy often
called for death of the person.

So, what St John had, was house arrest compared to the levels given during his time.

We were studying the "Living Flaming Of Love" which he created while in prison and had
committed to memory and wrote it after he was set free.

St John was never removed from the priesthood, Frank Pavone was. He apparently did
something bad that caused such a move by both his Bishop and the Vatican itself.

Does godly true justice depend of when, in human history, it is administered? - Or are we speaking here of human, worldly "justice" inflicted on the men ruled by men who have made themselves the rulers? In St. Augustine's terms, such men of the earthly city - the city of man - rule over others because of the love of ruling. In the City of God, men rule humbly as true servants in the love of God, for the good of all - truly in His name.

Clericalists have always, and still do, justify themselves and justify the systems and structures that benefit themselves and that enable the power to rule over others that they love to possess. "They rule for the love of ruling." Such is not the loving servitude, the servant-hearts within the living Body of Christ alive in His holy life and Spirit.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Does godly true justice depend of when, in human history, it is administered? -

It puts things in perspective to look at what things were like in that era, rather than judging according to
today's standards. No, our Spiritual Assistant, a Friar of the Discalced Carmelites, was not practicing
clericalism, but telling history according to the time it took place, and not according to our
mindset today.

St John of the Cross is a doctor of the Church.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Frank Pavone to be named a doctor, even in the distant future.

 

[mourningdove~]

Pavone could continue to lead priests for life I guess. I see no reason why he couldn't.

fyi:

This weekend, I received this informational email from Priests for Life.
In obedience, "Father Frank" has taken off his collar and is now "Pro-life Leader Frank Pavone".
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Father Frank takes off collar FOR THE BABIES!

Pro-life leader Frank Pavone offers Christmas Eve message of hope​

December 24, 2022

Pope Francis has told Frank Pavone (affectionately known worldwide as “Father Frank”) that he cannot be a priest or wear priestly clothing. He will, of course, be obedient and will now refer to himself as Pro-life Leader Frank Pavone.

You will see that in this short video he released in which he offers all of us in the pro-life movement a Christmas Eve message of hope and prayerfully asks for the intercession of St. Padre Pio to help restore him to the clerical state.

Frank Pavone has a devotion to St. Padre Pio, an Italian priest who received the holy wounds of Christ on his body and had other spiritual gifts. He was stripped of his priestly faculties and silenced for almost a decade, until subsequent popes restored him to public ministry and dismissed all accusations against him.

He also asks the intercession of two other saints who knew him and Priests for Life and strongly blessed and encouraged that work: Mother Teresa, and St. John Paul II (under whom he worked at the Vatican for some years).

As for his pro-life vocation and work, Pavone vows:

“Our pro-life work isn’t slowing down one bit!”

You are invited to watch his short video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znxk7d7ir-0

And you are also invited to show your support for him – as well as your commitment to help carry on the work of Priests for Life and end America's abortion holocaust’ – by making as large a Christmas Eve donation as you can.

Know that all of us at Priests for Life – the Board, the Pastoral team, and the entire staff -- have re-dedicated ourselves unanimously to Frank Pavone, to his pro-life vocation, to his leadership, and to our shared mission of winning victory over abortion.

As Frank says in the video, “We’ve only just begun.”

God bless and Merry Christmas.

The Priests for Life Team

PS: Stay tune next week for additional broadcasts from Prolife leader, Frank Pavone, with live Q&A.