Was the gospel that Jesus preached different to Israel under the law of Moses different to the gospel Paul preached to the world under grace.

[Clare73]

By focusing on religious governments complete with palaces and rule enforcers, something God by saying My will before the will of man never did

The kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is not visible (Lk 7:20-21), it is of the spiritual world.

Israel was 100% religious government, David and Solomon lived in palaces, the priests enforced the rules (ceremonial laws).

 

[Clare73]

Mark 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto dthem that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 eThat seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The parable of the wise and foolish builders, lost sheep, sheep and goats, good Samaritan, cost of discipleship, etc.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus also said, on more than one occasion, that HE gave eternal life, John 3:16, John 6:29, John 6:40, John 6:53.

Jesus is God's word made flesh so him saying that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's word is not different then him giving eternal life. Again, the fact that Jesus taught both that eternal life comes by obeying God's commandments and by believing in him means that obedience to God's commandments is the way to believe in Him. After all, he is God's word made flesh.

Jesus gave us a new commandment; to love as he loved us. The word that he used for love here is Agape - God's divine love. We cannot love as God loves - loving sinners, our enemies and those who don't deserve even friendship - unless we have first received that love from God. So it's not possible to obey the command that Jesus gave us unless we know him, have received his love, been born again and have the fruit of love growing in us.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so he did not give us a brand new command, but rather what was new was the quality of the example by which we should love our neighbor, and indeed, the Greek word used refers to newness with respect to quality, not newness with respect to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

In order to correctly obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves, we need to know how we should love ourselves, and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Jesus loved us, which is therefore how we should love our neighbor, so loving our neighbor as Jesus loved us is still in obedience to the command to love our neighbor as ourselves, so he was teaching how to correctly obey that command, not teaching a different command. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized God's law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so he loved us through his obedience to it, so that is therefore also how we should love our neighbor.

In any case, Luke 10:25-28 is another example of God's commandments being the way to enter eternal life, the way to know him, the way to receive his love, the way to be born again, and the way to have the fruit of love growing in us.

It's because Jesus loves us and has saved us, that we obey him.
Your statement makes it sound as thought we obey him, try ever so hard ourselves and then he says, "yep, ok; I'll save you."
Salvation comes first. We love because God loved us.

Hebrews 5:9 notably does not say that will obey Jesus after we have been saved, but rather it says that Jesus is a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not saved as the result of having done those works and we do not do those works as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents.

Again, we cannot love as he loved us - with divine, Agape love, unless we have first received it.
The most loving, charitable person in the world might be an atheist or a Muslim. They are not given eternal life because of their good deeds and loving nature. If they don't accept Jesus, they are still lost.

Again, those verses equate believing in Jesus with obeying God's commandments, so God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in him. The way that we live testifies about what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so by doing good works, we are testifying about and believing in God's goodness, which is why they give glory to the Father (Matthew 5:13-16). So expressing, experiencing, loving, believing in, and testifying about Christ nature is the way to accept him and I see no good reason to think that someone who is doing that has not accepted him.

No.
JESUS is the Way, the Truth and the Life, John 14:6. The law might have showed people the way - Jesus IS the Way. The law might have shown people truth, or even foreshadowed the Gospel. But Jesus IS Truth. The law might show people how to live, but Jesus IS the Life, and came so that we could have fulness of life, John 10:10.
People who have never heard of/read the law can still receive Jesus, then they will be saved, know the truth and have life.
The law is not greater than Jesus.

Do you think that the verses that show that God's law is the way, the truth, and the life are false? There are many verses that show that God taught how to walk in His way though His law, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Joshua 22:5, Isaiah 2:2-3, Psalms 103:7, and many others. God's way is the way in which He expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19), and Jesus is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so Jesus is God's nature made flesh, which is what he was claiming when he said that he is the way. Jesus is the living embodiment of God's law, so the law teaches us how to do what is righteous and he is the personification of righteousness. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is the way to receive him and people can't receive Jesus while having no understanding of his nature. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it, and it is contradictory for someone to be saved from living in transgression of God's law apart from living in obedience to it. I've said nothing to suggest that God's law is greater than Jesus.

 

[timothyu]

The kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36), it is of the spiritual world.

Agreed and runs polar opposite to the traditional ways of man

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Clare73]

Agreed and runs polar opposite to the traditional ways of man
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

All of which are in regard to living by "the flesh" (fallen nature), not in regard to kingdom building.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus is God's word made flesh so him saying that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's word is not different then him giving eternal life. Again, the fact that Jesus taught both that eternal life comes by obeying God's commandments

If by "God's commands" you mean all 613 OT commandments that were given to the nation of Israel after they were rescued from Egypt; no.
If you mean Jesus's command to love as he loves us, no one can love with Agape, divine, love unless they have first received that love from God. John said, "we love because he first loved us", 1 John 4:19. It starts with God - he loves us, and because we receive his love, we can share it with others.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so he did not give us a brand new command,

Yes, he did - he said "love one another as I have loved you."
How did Jesus love us? By laying down his life for sinners, godless, wicked people who did not deserve a second chance; dying in agony for his enemies. No one in the OT loved like that. If people wronged them, they took revenge; that's why they were told "an eye for an eye", to put a limit on the revenge that they took and not to let it get out of control.
None of us could love like God until Jesus came to show us just how much God did love us, 1 John 3:16. And no one can love with divine love unless the Spirit, who is God, produces that love in us, Galatians 5:22-23.

In order to correctly obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves, we need to know how we should love ourselves, and the answer to that is that we should love ourselves as Jesus loved us, which is therefore how we should love our neighbor,

Again, none of us can love as Jesus loved unless we have first received that love from God.
We do not have divine love without God; we have only human love. Jesus loved us with Agape love.

In any case, Luke 10:25-28 is another example of God's commandments being the way to enter eternal life, the way to know him, the way to receive his love, the way to be born again, and the way to have the fruit of love growing in us.

And Jesus said that whoever believed in HIM had eternal life.

Hebrews 5:9 notably does not say that will obey Jesus after we have been saved,

Again, we love - and obey - because God first loved us.
If you have a relationship with someone and really love them, I am quite sure that you will want to please them and make them happy. If a person was saying "I will only love you if you obey me", we would say that, at best, that person was insecure and unsure of your love. At worst, they could be said to be controlling and manipulative, making their love for you conditional on your obedience.

Again, those verses equate believing in Jesus with obeying God's commandments, so God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in him.

What commands? The whole of the OT law?
Jesus did not command his disciples to teach those laws to Gentiles, or to continue to obey them. Even Jews don't offer animal sacrifices today - we who believe in the once and for all sacrifice offered by the Lamb of God, certainly don't have to.

Do you think that the verses that show that God's law is the way, the truth, and the life are false? There are many verses that show that God taught how to walk in His way though His law, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Joshua 22:5, Isaiah 2:2-3, Psalms 103:7, and many others.

All OT verses.
Before Jesus came, God's law was all they had. It was given by God - it was his word, his law and his covenant with those whom he rescued from Egypt. It showed them how to live as God's holy people. It showed them how to please God, how to draw close to him, how to serve him and how to remember their rescue from Egypt and covenant at Sinai.
In the NT, we are God's holy people if we believe in his Word - Jesus; the one whop rescued us from sin and death. We have his teachings, and those of his apostles, to teach us how to live, love and serve him. We are saved by the blood of the NEW Covenant - the shed blood of the Lamb, and Son, of God.
There has been no instruction that we should return to live under the OLD Covenant - a covenant that was not made with Gentiles anyway. Paul, and the writer of Hebrews, are quite clear that the law was only for a time, that where there is a change of priest there is a change of law, that the law is obsolete and will soon fade away. Paul condemned anyone who taught that obedience to the law, and circumcision in particular, were important for salvation.

 

[timothyu]

All of which are in regard to living by "the flesh" (fallen nature), not in regard to kingdom building.

Man usually builds our constructed kingdoms in the image of our previous ones (flesh). The concept of the Kingdom (governance) of God is still alien in the minds of many as the world of man is all they have ever known. There is duality even within religion. Hence occasions where a church will align itself with the governance of man. We saw it centuries ago, we see it now. Discernment is a must.

 

[Soyeong]

If by "God's commands" you mean all 613 OT commandments that were given to the nation of Israel after they were rescued from Egypt; no.
If you mean Jesus's command to love as he loves us, no one can love with Agape, divine, love unless they have first received that love from God. John said, "we love because he first loved us", 1 John 4:19. It starts with God - he loves us, and because we receive his love, we can share it with others.

You've given no justification for you denies while I've cited a number of verses that show that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His way that he might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in God and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life. Again, Jesus expressed His love through his obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is the way that we should love as he loved us.

Yes, he did - he said "love one another as I have loved you."
How did Jesus love us? By laying down his life for sinners, godless, wicked people who did not deserve a second chance; dying in agony for his enemies. No one in the OT loved like that. If people wronged them, they took revenge; that's why they were told "an eye for an eye", to put a limit on the revenge that they took and not to let it get out of control.
None of us could love like God until Jesus came to show us just how much God did love us, 1 John 3:16. And no one can love with divine love unless the Spirit, who is God, produces that love in us, Galatians 5:22-23.

To suggest that Jesus taught a new command is to say that he sinned and to deny that he is our Savior.

Again, teaching an example of how we should love our neighbor is not teaching something different than obedience to the command to love our neighbor. At the point of John 13:34, Jesus had not yet given himself on the cross, so loving one another as he had loved them refers to the manner in which he expressed his love for them during his ministry, which was through obeying the Mosaic Law.

And Jesus said that whoever believed in HIM had eternal life.

Again, that combined with all of the verses that speak about obedience to God's law being the way to enter eternal life means that obedience to God's law is the way to believe in Jesus.

Again, we love - and obey - because God first loved us.
If you have a relationship with someone and really love them, I am quite sure that you will want to please them and make them happy. If a person was saying "I will only love you if you obey me", we would say that, at best, that person was insecure and unsure of your love. At worst, they could be said to be controlling and manipulative, making their love for you conditional on your obedience.

When we express an aspect of God's nature through our obedience to His law we are expressing our love for that aspect of who He is. So everything that God has chosen to command was specifically commanded in order to teach us how to love different aspects of His nature, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, so it is not an insecure, controlling, or manipulative type of love, but it is conditional on our obedience. In John 14:23-24, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, if we don't love him, then we will not obey his teachings, and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so again it is conditional. In any cast, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is a source of eternal life for those who obey Him, so it is a requirement for eternal life.

What commands? The whole of the OT law?
Jesus did not command his disciples to teach those laws to Gentiles, or to continue to obey them. Even Jews don't offer animal sacrifices today - we who believe in the once and for all sacrifice offered by the Lamb of God, certainly don't have to.

Yes, the Israelites needed to be taught how to believe in God and that was the purpose of the Mosaic Law, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to it. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which he commissioned his disciples to bring to the nations teaching everything that he taught them (Matthew 28:16-20).

In Acts 18:18, Paul took a vow involving shaving his head and the only vow in the Bible that involves doing that is a Nazarite vow in Numbers 6, which involves making offerings. Furthermore, in Acts 21:20-24, Paul intended to pay for the offerings of others who had undertaken as similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Mosaic Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it refers to offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Mosaic Law. So offerings did not cease with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only ceased because of the destruction of the temple, though the Bible prophesies a time when the third temple will be built and offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46). Furthermore, if all of Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah, then the 2nd temple would not have been destroyed, and there would still be sacrifices being offered.

All OT verses.
Before Jesus came, God's law was all they had. It was given by God - it was his word, his law and his covenant with those whom he rescued from Egypt. It showed them how to live as God's holy people. It showed them how to please God, how to draw close to him, how to serve him and how to remember their rescue from Egypt and covenant at Sinai.
In the NT, we are God's holy people if we believe in his Word - Jesus; the one whop rescued us from sin and death. We have his teachings, and those of his apostles, to teach us how to live, love and serve him. We are saved by the blood of the NEW Covenant - the shed blood of the Lamb, and Son, of God.
There has been no instruction that we should return to live under the OLD Covenant - a covenant that was not made with Gentiles anyway.

Indeed, before Jesus came, the OT was all that they had, so that is the context how they would have understood what Jesus was claiming when he claimed to be the way. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law, so I have not been suggesting that we should live under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather I have been speaking about how we should live under the New Covenant, which was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).

Paul, and the writer of Hebrews, are quite clear that the law was only for a time, that where there is a change of priest there is a change of law, that the law is obsolete and will soon fade away. Paul condemned anyone who taught that obedience to the law, and circumcision in particular, were important for salvation.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same law for how to act in accordance with His nature. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, in it was a sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of covenants being made or becoming obsolete that will ever change whether it is a sin to commit adultery, and if that were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. The only way to do away with laws for how to act in accordance with God's nature is to first do away with God.

So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as it becoming righteous to commit adultery or sinful to help the poor, but rather in context it is referring to a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete in 8:13, God's eternal law has not become obsolete along with it.

Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to requiring all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose, which should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

 

[Clare73]

Man usually builds our constructed kingdoms in the image of our previous ones (flesh).

Please give an example of a "constructed kingdom."
Please give an example of "our previous ones (flesh)."
Please give an example of "constructed kingdom in the image of our previous ones (flesh)."

 

[timothyu]

In man's terms, kingdom or empire, same thing. An empire was built within Christianity which resembled previous governments/cultures in image, thought and deed. As it splintered it for the most part carried on the human tradition it broke away from. It's hard to weed the flesh out of even Christianity and as the Bible says, leave it alone for fear of damaging the grain.

 

[JAL]

Gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of grace which one is it ?



This is just a quick study to outline the differences in the gospel that Jesus preached to the nation of israel and the gospel that is given to the gentiles by paul. I’m writing this so that we can recognise the differences between the two, the distinct purposes they both carry and how we should never blend the two together.



When Jesus arrived on the scene the first time 2000 years ago, he came specifically for the people of Israel and NOT the gentile nations.



Matthew 15:24



"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."



He even commanded the disciples only to go out and witness to Israel and not the gentile nations.



Matthew 10:5-7



These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



So we can see that in order to be eligible to enter this kingdom that Jesus was preaching you had to be of Jewish heritage.





This reason for this is because Jesus’s original objective was to bring in the prophesied earthly kingdom which was promised to Israel through their forefathers (David, Abraham ect...).



Jesus was ready to do this however Israel were not, they were not in the right state for this to occur. Therefore there were certain works that the entire nation of Israel needed to do, in order to get the nation as a whole into the right condition so that Jesus could then bring in the kingdom.



That’s why there’s lots of passages within the gospels that say things such as ”the kingdom is at hand” or the “kingdom is near”. The Gospel of the kingdom was something that was spoken of with a sense of urgency because Jesus was ready to implement it.



Matthew 10:6



And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



Mark 1:15



The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”



Matthew 4:17



From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”



Now some of the things they were required to do were things like.....



Water baptism



Water baptism today is not a requirement for someone to be saved.



But back in this time in order to receive the Holy Spirit they had to be baptised.



Acts 2:38



Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Everything that Jesus preached was pertaining to the nation of Israel.





However this is not the same under the gospel of grace, once someone puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ death burial and resurrection as full payment for their sin they receive the Holy Spirit at the very moment they make the decision to do this. We become baptised within the spirit.



Titus 3:5



Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Ephesians 1:13



In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.



1 Corinthians 12:13



For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we bebond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



The Jews were also required to sell all of their possessions if they wanted to inherit the kingdom and have everlasting life



Luke 12:32-33 KJV

[32] Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. [33] Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.



Acts 2:44-45



And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.



Even when the rich man asked what he must do to inherit eternal life Jesus said



Matthew 19:21



Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



Another requirement is that they also had to forsake family too.



Matthew 19:29



And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.



From this we can gather if one wanted to inherit eternal life and gain access into the earthly kingdom Jesus was preaching one had to..



Believe in Jesus as messiah as well as

Sell all their possessions to their poor

Forsake unbelieving family

Be baptised

Keep the commandments





We can see from these scriptures that this gospel that Jesus preached required an element of works in order to be eligible to fufill its requirements.



Now let’s move onto the gospel of grace



Because israel rejected their messiah Jesus Christ, the kingdom that was going to be brought into action to them was postponed and God turned his attention to the gentiles. The bible says that israel is now in darkness until God is finished with the gentiles at the rapture.



Romans 11:25



For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Because of this, a new gospel was given to the world in which we would be saved.



This is the gospel of grace that was given to Paul by Jesus Christ himself to be preached among the nations. Paul was raised up by God in order to instruct the gentiles on how to live their lives



Galatians 1:3-4

[3] Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, [4] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: …



Galatians 1:11-12



Galatians 1:11-12 KJV

[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. …



The gospel of grace is that



Salvation is now freely provided to anyone who simply believes in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins. It is completely void of works or behaviour and is a free gift given by solely by his grace through faith.



Romans 3:22-26



[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



Ephesians 1:7



In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;



1 Thessalonians 4:14



For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



Ephesians 2:8-9



For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.



Philippians 3:9



And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:







So from this study we can conclude that both of the messages that Jesus preached to israel and what Paul taught the gentiles are two totally different gospels that are used for different purposes.



Many preachers today do not correctly rightly divide the word and instead blend the two together, which not only causes confusion amongst believers but produces a gospel of works.



I will state again, we are under the gospel of grace if anyone wants to receive eternal life and enter into a personal relationship with God. Then all one must do is believe that Jesus died and shed his blood for their sins.







if you would like to receive eternal life and enter into a personal relationship with God just simply believe, if your not sure how to pray then start praying this prayer with a genuine heart.





Dear God



I admit that I am a sinner. I have done many things that don’t please, I believe that your son Jesus Christ died on the cross for me, to save me and I believe that he risen from the dead three days later to pay the penalty for my sins so that I could be forgiven. You did what I could not do for myself. I come to you now and ask you to take control of my life, I give it to you. Help me to live every day in a way that pleases you. I love you, Lord, and I thank you that I will spend all eternity with you in Jesus’ name amen.

This hyperdispensational drivel certainly divides the truth - it wrongly divides the entire body of believers creating friction. How sad. How superficial is the hyperdispensational "analysis" of Scripture.

Dispensationalism? Nope. Continuity. There is ONE economy from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with Adam and Eve:

"27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand." (John 10).

Saving faith comes by hearing that voice (Rom 10:17; cf Gen 15:1; John 5:37). Yahweh voiced even the 10 commandments to all Israel before engraving them on stone (Ex 20).

 

[Guojing]

This hyperdispensational drivel certainly divides the truth - it wrongly divides the entire body of believers creating friction. How sad. How superficial is the hyperdispensational "analysis" of Scripture.

Dispensationalism? Nope. Continuity. There is ONE economy from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with Adam and Eve:

"27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand." (John 10).

Saving faith comes by hearing that voice (Rom 10:17; cf Gen 15:1; John 5:37). Yahweh voiced even the 10 commandments to all Israel before engraving them on stone (Ex 20).

Paul stated in Ephesians 3:1-9 that a new dispensation was given to him.

 

[JAL]

Paul stated in Ephesians 3:1-9 that a new dispensation was given to him.

Typical superficiality. He didn't say "new", and that Greek term, as used in Ephesians, doesn't even mean covenant but rather describes Paul as being, in his day, the chief steward/administrator/dispenser of the Gentile revivals/outpourings of grace. Pentecost initiated probably the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in history. This grace quickly spawned many prophets but, even so, you'd not likely receive that gift until a chief prophet such as Paul or Peter laid hands on you, thereby dispensing it unto you. Similarly, "Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him" (Deut 34:9).

If the blood of bulls and goats could save OT and NT saints, Christ's suffering was wasted effort. Hence Paul had to regard the cross as retroactive to OT saints. This implies a single covenant of grace shared between OT and NT saints, a fact largely thematic to Romans 4 and Galatians 3. And it puts a huge burden of proof on the hyperdispensationalist to establish otherwise.

 

[Danthemailman]

In regards to the gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught, people need to understand that there is a distinctive element to the content of the gospel which is called "the mystery of the gospel" (see Ephesians 6:19 and compare with Colossians 1:26-27; 4:3) that Paul preached. This new revelation is that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6). Such equality, Jew and Gentile united together in one body was previously unknown. The distinctive message of the church is that Jew and Gentile alike may believe the gospel and be united together into ONE BODY. (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13)

"Gospel" simply means "good news." Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom, which was, "..Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2) This shows that before the cross, the content of gospel of grace that Paul taught and came to him through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12) was still a mystery.

Ephesians 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

That was not part of the content of the gospel which the twelve, John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ were preaching. Yet, they were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

Jesus Christ sent the twelve to preach only to Israel. Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ The disciples were specifically told to go only to the people of Israel, and they were not yet preaching anything about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

In Matthew 16:15, Jesus Christ asked His disciples, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Now Peter had no clue that Jesus Christ would be crucified, buried and resurrected. He only believed that Jesus was the Messiah at this point. This is obvious when, only moments later, Peter rebukes Jesus Christ for saying he will be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matthew 16:21). In verse 22, "..Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Before his death, Jesus told the twelve that he had to die and that he would rise on the third day. However, it is unquestionable that the disciples were ignorant of its meaning.

“Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem,…And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. – Luke 18:31-34. hmm... that's strange if the content of the gospel of grace that came through a revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul and was a mystery prior to that has the same content as the gospel of the kingdom prior to the cross.

This is where we need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

After his crucifixion, instead of anxiously waiting his resurrection, the apostles were still ignorant, disheartened at the death of their redeemer, and did not even at first believe the testimony of his resurrection. (Mark 16:14, Luke 24:19-24)

It was not until after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to the apostles and opened their understanding. (Luke 24:44-47)

 

[Guojing]

Typical superficiality. He didn't say "new", and that Greek term, as used in Ephesians, doesn't even mean covenant but rather describes Paul as being, in his day, the chief steward/administrator/dispenser of the Gentile revivals/outpourings of grace. Pentecost initiated probably the greatest outpouring of the Holy Spirit in history. This grace quickly spawned many prophets but, even so, you'd not likely receive that gift until a chief prophet such as Paul or Peter laid hands on you, thereby dispensing it unto you. Similarly, "Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him" (Deut 34:9).

If the blood of bulls and goats could save OT and NT saints, Christ's suffering was wasted effort. Hence Paul had to regard the cross as retroactive to OT saints. This implies a single covenant of grace shared between OT and NT saints, a fact largely thematic to Romans 4 and Galatians 3. And it puts a huge burden of proof on the hyperdispensationalist to establish otherwise.

It says that dispensation was given to him.

If it was earlier given to Peter and the others, whether Pentecost or otherwise, he would not claim it was given to him for us.

 

[JAL]

You're using the term "dispensation" in a sense similar to "covenant". The root of the Greek term simply means steward/administrator. You're putting words in Paul's mouth.

It says that dispensation was given to him.

If it was earlier given to Peter and the others, whether Pentecost or otherwise, he would not claim it was given to him for us.

God used Paul among the Gentiles. That implies a new covenant? So if God today sent me to Cambodia to preach to the Cambodians, that would mean a new covenant for the Cambodians? Again, superficial analysis.

 

[JAL]

It says that dispensation was given to him.

If it was earlier given to Peter and the others, whether Pentecost or otherwise, he would not claim it was given to him for us.

You've been on this forum for quite a while. By now you've had plenty of time to reflect on Rom 4 and Gal 3. Please comment on them. To get the ball rolling, I'll go first.

Paul distinguishes between salvation by law versus salvation by faith:

"11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” f 12The law is not based on faith" (Gal 3).

Hm...Is Paul saying that the OT saints went to hell? I don't think so.

"14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath" (Romans 4).

"16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."

The Abrahamic covenant preceded the Mosaic law by 400 years and was by faith. Did the law set aside the Abrahamic covenant/promise? Or even modify it?

"Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.... 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the [Abrahamic] promise." (Gal 3)

To summarize: in Galatians 3 and Romans 4, Paul makes explicit what we already knew logically - salvation had to be by faith/grace because we are all sinners by law.

Your turn.

 

[Clare73]

In man's terms, kingdom or empire, same thing. An empire was built within Christianity which resembled previous governments/cultures in image, thought and deed. As it splintered it for the most part carried on the human tradition it broke away from. It's hard to weed the flesh out of even Christianity and as the Bible says, leave it alone for fear of damaging the grain.

Which still does not answer the question whether the Kingdom of God is spiritual and invisible (Lk 17:20-21), or physical and visible, needing the flesh to be weeded out.

 

[timothyu]

Which still does not answer the question whether the Kingdom of God is spiritual and invisible

For now, although Jesus is visible, but it is still subject to the workings of adversarial flesh. The Kingdom is even subject to dismissal in favour of the kingdoms of man, both secular and religious. Fellow man still prefers we put their will ahead of the will of God.

Matthew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Clare73]

For now,

For now, what?

although Jesus is visible, but it is still subject to the workings of adversarial flesh. The Kingdom is even subject to dismissal

The spiritual and invisible Kingdom of God is not subject to dismissal by man.

in favour of the kingdoms of man, both secular and religious. Fellow man still prefers we put their will ahead of the will of God.

Matthew 23: 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Which has nothing to do with the endurance of the spiritual and invisible Kingdom of God on earth, and in heaven in the spirits of departed believers now (Heb 12:22-23).