Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[RDKirk]

Culture plays a role, but if we really hope to change the average outcomes for those born into it, we have to find a way to change that culture, not just encourage people to leave it.

It would be nice to change the culture, but politically speaking, changing the culture has to be done by people within the culture, or the operation will look like the forced changes of culture that were practiced on Native Americans in the US and Canada.

Dysfunctional culture patterns and practices have to be pointed out and derided by people within the culture, and not accepted, celebrated, or excused.

White people deride their dysfunctional cultures. For instance, if you ever see "cracker" culture (which is not the same thing as "redneck" culture) portrayed in the media, it's always derided. Down here in Texas, white people are viscerally terrified of crackers. They literally escape from the presence of a cracker that wanders into their midst.

 

[Ken-1122]

If you read carefully, you will see that your question is irrelevant. If you accept the premise that a percentage of police encounters can and will become abusive - even if that percentage is tiny - and you subsequently accept the premise that Black people are involved in more police encounters per capita than white people, then you *must* accept the conclusion that Black people are abused more by police on average than white people. You’re just not bothered by it.

Wouldn't that also cause one to conclude that black people are also given favorable treatment more often by police than white people?

 

[RDKirk]

If you read carefully, you will see that your question is irrelevant. If you accept the premise that a percentage of police encounters can and will become abusive - even if that percentage is tiny - and you subsequently accept the premise that Black people are involved in more police encounters per capita than white people, then you *must* accept the conclusion that Black people are abused more by police on average than white people. You’re just not bothered by it.

Well, no, not at all. As you have stated it, that would mean black people are "on average" abused no more than anyone else.

 

[gaara4158]

It would be nice to change the culture, but politically speaking, changing the culture has to be done by people within the culture, or the operation will look like the forced changes of culture that were practiced on Native Americans in the US and Canada.

Dysfunctional culture patterns and practices have to be pointed out and derided by people within the culture, and not accepted, celebrated, or excused.

White people do that. For instance, if you ever see "cracker" culture (which is not the same thing as "redneck" culture) portrayed in the media, it's always derided. Down here in Texas, white people are viscerally terrified of crackers. They literally escape from the presence of a cracker that wanders into their midst.

I don’t know anything about “crackers,” but as far as cultural change goes, you can’t expect something to change from the bottom-up just because you want it to. Culture doesn’t develop in a vacuum, it develops directly in response to the material conditions a people experience in their everyday lives. How can a culture change if the conditions stay the same?

 

[gaara4158]

Well, no, not at all. As you have stated it, that would mean black people are "on average" abused no more than anyone else.

The are in fact abused three times more than their white counterparts, due to being policed more closely.

 

[RDKirk]

I don’t know anything about “crackers,” but as far as cultural change goes, you can’t expect something to change from the bottom-up just because you want it to. Culture doesn’t develop in a vacuum, it develops directly in response to the material conditions a people experience in their everyday lives. How can a culture change if the conditions stay the same?

The dysfunctional culture causes the conditions. The reason black Americans do more poorly than African immigrants today is solely a matter of culture. I saw that back in the 80s when I found myself so often answering African immigrants who asked, "Why do black Americans do this ridiculous thing?" But in the same social environment, they weren't doing such rediculous thins. That is nothing but a difference of culture, one being functional, the other being dysfunctional. The NOI (Black Muslims) was right about that all along, and continues to be right about that.

 

[RDKirk]

The are in fact abused three times more than their white counterparts, due to being policed more closely.

But whites who are policed as closely (in certain "cracker" areas of the country) also report being abused. So, when the factor is "policed more closely," the level of abuse is the same.

But if the internal crime rate is higher--which it is--then that calls for closer policing. Or do you believe people in high crime areas should be ignored and left to their plight?

 

[gaara4158]

The dysfunctional culture causes the conditions. The reason black Americans do more poorly than African immigrants today is solely a matter of culture. I saw that back in the 80s when I found myself so often answering African immigrants who asked, "Why do black Americans do this ridiculous thing?" But in the same social environment, they weren't doing such rediculous thins. That is nothing but a difference of culture, one being functional, the other being dysfunctional. The NOI (Black Muslims) was right about that all along, and continues to be right about that.

It’s a vicious cycle, to be sure, but it’s no mystery which came first. It also happens to be the part that can be changed from the outside. Why resist?

 

[gaara4158]

But whites who are policed as closely (in certain "cracker" areas of the country) also report being abused. So, when the factor is "policed more closely," the level of abuse is the same.

But if the internal crime rate is higher--which it is--then that calls for closer policing. Or do you believe people in high crime areas should be ignored and left to their plight?

Again, policing isn’t the be-all end-all of crime prevention. A myriad of factors go into predicting crime rates, and it’s absurd to suggest it’s just one factor or another. It might even be racist, depending on what you choose to focus on.

 

[rjs330]

We should be concerned deeply about the systems that make society run making life especially unfair for people of color.

There aren't any. You have failed to prove your point other than saying black communities have more crime and because if their own actions there are more police needed to protect the black victims of black crime.

Your anti-police rhetoric is noted.

According to Wikipedia 85% of the redlined residents were white. The other 15% did make up for a large majority of minorities but this only proves that redlining wasn’t a result of racism it was another result of low income.

This is interesting. It's not something I've done a deep dive on. Thanks for sharing this. It simply shows reality that redlining was not a system designed to be racist. It's was simply bad for all people. Once again thenleft has twisted a policy that affected everyone to make it sound like it was racist because they just didn't want to give black people stuff.

These people are just dishonest or ignorant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Of course not. I have white privilege thanks to my wealthy white father, despite spending considerable time there visiting my mother’s side of the family. Why do you ask?

Just to see if your speaking from actual personal experience or going off of what some psychologists says about it.

 

[rjs330]

It’s a vicious cycle, to be sure, but it’s no mystery which came first. It also happens to be the part that can be changed from the outside. Why resist?

You are right that there is no mystery which comes first. It's criminal activity that victimizes black people that came first. You stop that and you stop the need for policing those areas.

The balck community is solely responsible for changing the culture. As you pointed out it starts from the top down. That means black leaders need to start taking responsibility for pushing a change in culture. Black mayor's, black representatives and senators, black governors, black teachers and city councilmen are are responsible for this. A change is culture is needed.

As we see everyday, when black people leave the hood and the culture there they do much better financially and build more stable lives. Black people who come from other countries do very well because they do not embrace the hood culture.

The opportunities are there just like they are for everyone else. But white people cannot change a black hood culture. It's not our responsibility not is it our place to do so.

 

[rjs330]

Just to see if your speaking from actual personal experience or going off of what some psychologists says about it.

I think he's going off of what the left says about it. His white privilege has been exposed by his education system which has taught him this nonsense.

 

[gaara4158]

There aren't any. You have failed to prove your point other than saying black communities have more crime and because if their own actions there are more police needed to protect the black victims of black crime.

You understand it’s a minority of Black people committing these crimes that affect everyone around them, right? But because the problems involve other Black people, you see that as an “internal” problem and therefore not systemic. Your thoughts terminate there.

 

[gaara4158]

Just to see if you’re speaking from actual personal experience or going off of what some psychologists says about it.

Data isn’t the plural of anecdotes. Your personal experience does not override statistical data.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Data isn’t the plural of anecdotes. Your personal experience does not override statistical data.

But statistical data doesn’t indicate causes only the effects. Statistical data will give you the sum but not the cause from which it was actually derived. Statistical data allows for the misinterpretation of the cause as opposed to personal experience which offers a much more comprehensive understanding of the situation.

 

[RDKirk]

It’s a vicious cycle, to be sure, but it’s no mystery which came first. It also happens to be the part that can be changed from the outside. Why resist?

It doesn't matter which came first in terms of fixing the problem. And your answer about changing it from the outside seems to be withdrawing police presence from urban areas...is that your answer?

 

[RDKirk]

Again, policing isn’t the be-all end-all of crime prevention. A myriad of factors go into predicting crime rates, and it’s absurd to suggest it’s just one factor or another.

I've told you that myself at least twice in this thread.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Again, policing isn’t the be-all end-all of crime prevention. A myriad of factors go into predicting crime rates, and it’s absurd to suggest it’s just one factor or another. It might even be racist, depending on what you choose to focus on.

Three pages on, and still no reply....

Were you going to respond or not? Because if you prefer to stay silent, I don't mind using your own words to show everyone else how people end up saying ridiculous things like ....

"Math is racist."

Or

"Grades are racist."

And I don't need your response to do it....I can explain it quite clearly without any reply from you at all. I just figured I'd give you a chance first.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Data isn’t the plural of anecdotes. Your personal experience does not override statistical data.

Certainly not...but no one ever sticks to this position. I imagine that is because it’s untenable. People tend to drift into blaming racist individuals or pull examples from the Jim Crow days for racist laws and policies. We can skip that though...if you intend to keep this position....




Or to the one who doesn't speed.




Well the speed traps exist as a solution to a problem....speeding. It's a problem that kills people every year and before I would agree to do away with or alter speed traps....I'd need a pretty good reason why.





I don't want this to come off the wrong way since you had me on ignore, so please, consider the following words as honest and my tone as sincere...

I genuinely don't see the problem. It's because I can separate the concept you're describing from the phrase you use to describe it...systemic racism. Without any racist actors or laws or rules, the racism part of the concept can be dropped...and along with it, any moral imperative derived from the word. Systemic, imo, just a descriptor floated in front of "racism" to confuse people and get them to stay silent for fear of sounding ignorant. Fortunately for me, I can't even remember the last time I feared sounding ignorant.

If we're assuming procedural fairness....then it's safe to say that we won't find any racism in the system. Indeed, you're claiming that the racism is found in the outcomes. I'd say that this conception of "systemic racism" is only about outcomes....and frankly, a more accurate term for the concept would be....

"Average racial group outcomes".

Hopefully, I'm not wrong....and you would agree that is what you're talking about. If I am correct...then you would say we have a problem whenever average racial group outcomes are different....but we don't have a "problem" whenever "average racial group outcomes" are the same.

Is that a fair description of the position you're taking? We can go back to calling it systemic racism if you want.....the label on the jar doesn't matter to me. We can call it "furry hobbit feet" if you want....I just want to be sure we're talking about the same thing. It's typically at this point where the person I'm speaking with reverts to something about racist individuals or laws....
.
.I'm hoping that's not the case with you.