The Most Passionate Science Deniers Are Pro-Trans ‘Experts’ Who Profit From Carving Up Kids

[rjs330]

No carving up kids' genitals, huh? I'm not opposed to that. We should wait until they're old enough to make that decision for themselves. Guess that means an end to circumcision for baby boys.

This is a patently ridiculous argument. We are talking chopping off perfectly healthy complete body organs. Are you trying to equate snipping off some foreskin with being equal to completely chopping off an arm?

 

[rjs330]

Also, no-one is "being made wealthy" from gender affirming care. There were less than 330 gender affirming care surgeries performed on minors across the entire US in 2021. Most of those were bilateral mastectomies - which is not a particularly expensive surgery. This is not some bizarre get rich quick scheme.

This kind of surgery is a huge money maker. Are you denying that it is? Who cares how many are being done. The fact is that it's very expensive and the doctors and hospitals make a lot of money when they do it.

21 Attorneys General Want U.S. Supreme Court to Uphold Immigration Law - Tennessee Star

Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich is leading a group of 21 attorneys general in an amicus brief regarding federal immigration law.

tennesseestar.com

 

[rjs330]

That's not what's happening. It's just not.

This is (at a minimum) a four sided conversation: the child, their parents (or legal guardians), child psychologists and the doctors that are actually going to be either administering the hormones or conducting the surgeries. There is informed consent all around - if there isn't, gender affirming care is usually with-held.

There's often other parties involved - usually multiple state entities and medical insurance providers. Sometimes there are independent bodies involved.

This is not something that happens just on a whim. Puberty blockers, hormone replacements and surgical intervention are stages in a process that is YEARS long.

Also, no-one is "being made wealthy" from gender affirming care. There were less than 330 gender affirming care surgeries performed on minors across the entire US in 2021. Most of those were bilateral mastectomies - which is not a particularly expensive surgery. This is not some bizarre get rich quick scheme.

If you want to be wealthy as a psychiatrist, psychologist or counselor, you don't go into child psychology (my sister happens to be a child psychologist and I know exactly how little she makes). And, you don't specalise in a field where there are less than 2000 medical interventions in a given year.

If you want to be wealthy as a doctor, you become a cosmetic surgeon, anesthetist, gastroenterologist, dermatologist or a radiologist. You don't move into a field that affects less than 0.5% of the population and where rates of surgical intervention happen in only 5% to 25% of cases.

Are you not aware that parents are losing their parental rights for not going along?

The kids are not able to give consent. They are not mentally capable.of understanding the long term consequences of their actions.

No one said it's in a whim. It's a coordinated effort by trans activists including doctors and psychologists.

Often the poor parents are stuck in the middle just trying to do what's best for their kid.

There are a number of parental groups who are dealing with these issues and realize the mistake of transing thier kids and are not trying to prevent it from happening to others.

 

[rjs330]

If you don't think it is happening, why are you getting so upset about it?

Think said that kids were having the decision for sex change surgery made for them. Tinker Grey said it wasn't happening, and then you said it was. So yeah, you did claim it was happening.

I didn't claim five year olds. And Tinker proved my point. I was right.

Kids can't make that decision on their own. They HAVE to have parental consent. Or in the case of the government taking away the parents rights because the parents won't agree then the government does it.

The kids do NOT have the mental maturity to know what they are doing.

Most people recognize this.

Young Teen Brains Are Immature, Just Like The Stereotype

According to popular stereotype, young teenagers are shortsighted, leaving them prone to poor judgment and risky decision-making when it comes to issues like taking drugs and having sex and a new study confirms that.

www.science20.com

 

[Gene2memE]

Are you not aware that parents are losing their parental rights for not going along?

The kids are not able to give consent. They are not mentally capable.of understanding the long term consequences of their actions.

No one said it's in a whim. It's a coordinated effort by trans activists including doctors and psychologists.

Often the poor parents are stuck in the middle just trying to do what's best for their kid.

There are a number of parental groups who are dealing with these issues and realize the mistake of transing thier kids and are not trying to prevent it from happening to others.

Now the doctors and psychologists - who are guided by the best medical ethics and practices (and have to be, as their actions in this regards are formally interrogated either on a daily or weekly basis) - are "trans activists". Yeah, right.

That rings about as true as flat earthers talking about 'globetards' or creationists talking about 'evolutionists'.

 

[rjs330]

Now the doctors and psychologists - who are guided by the best medical ethics and practices (and have to be, as their actions in this regards are formally interrogated either on a daily or weekly basis) - are "trans activists". Yeah, right.

Yes they are. You know where they get their guidance from? A Trans activist organization. Or they don't know what they are doing.

Transgender Docs Warn About Gender-Affirmative Care for Youth

What many transgender activists don't want you to know: and why you should know it anyway - PubMed

A transgender psychologist has helped hundreds of teens transition. But rising numbers have her concerned




The standards of care recommend mental health support and comprehensive assessment for all dysphoric youth before starting medical interventions. The process, done conscientiously, can take a few months (when a young person’s gender has been persistent and there are no simultaneous mental health issues) or up to several years in complicated cases. But few are trained to do it properly, and some clinicians don’t even believe in it, contending without evidence that treating dysphoria medically will resolve other mental health issues. Providers and their behavior haven’t been closely studied, but we find evidence every single day, from our peers across the country and concerned parents who reach out, that the field has moved from a more nuanced, individualized and developmentally appropriate assessment process to one where every problem looks like a medical one that can be solved quickly with medication or, ultimately, surgery. As a result, we may be harming some of the young people we strive to support — people who may not be prepared for the gender transitions they are being rushed into.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

I could go on. I've got the truth in my side. What you have is nothing more than sociopolitical ideology that has been spoon fed to too many people who just st gobble it up without digging into what's going on.

Doctors Debate Whether Trans Teens Need Therapy Before Hormones

Clinicians are divided over new guidelines that say teens should undergo mental health screenings before receiving hormones or gender surgeries.

www.google.com

 

[Pommer]

This is a patently ridiculous argument. We are talking chopping off perfectly healthy complete body organs. Are you trying to equate snipping off some foreskin with being equal to completely chopping off an arm?

If there’s a “religious” reason to sexually mutilate a baby boy, that’s “okay”?
You sure you wanna go with that?

 

[Pommer]

This kind of surgery is a huge money maker. Are you denying that it is? Who cares how many are being done. The fact is that it's very expensive and the doctors and hospitals make a lot of money when they do it.

21 Attorneys General Want U.S. Supreme Court to Uphold Immigration Law - Tennessee Star

Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich is leading a group of 21 attorneys general in an amicus brief regarding federal immigration law.

tennesseestar.com

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?
Are you suggesting that “it’s bad” that competent surgeons to provide these services?
Who better to fill this healthcare niche?

 

[KCfromNC]

Like I say every time somebody on your team issues this challenge, What exactly would you like me to present as evidence that you will not refute in any way, won't deny, won't diminish and try with all your might to explain away?

Seems like an unintentional admission that the yet-to-be-presented evidence must be pretty flimsy, given the acknowledgement that reasonable people will immediately see through it.

Because this certainly can't be an attempt to poison the well by implying that the person asking the question is not being sincere. Personal attacks like that are against the rules here.

 

[KCfromNC]

This kind of surgery is a huge money maker. Are you denying that it is? Who cares how many are being done. The fact is that it's very expensive and the doctors and hospitals make a lot of money when they do it.

21 Attorneys General Want U.S. Supreme Court to Uphold Immigration Law - Tennessee Star

Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich is leading a group of 21 attorneys general in an amicus brief regarding federal immigration law.

tennesseestar.com

Yeah, health care is a big business. Are we supposed to be surprised or something?
I mean, might as well complain about how cardiologists are in it for the money or something as a reason to avoid going to the ER if one has chest pains.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

This kind of surgery is a huge money maker. Are you denying that it is? Who cares how many are being done. The fact is that it's very expensive and the doctors and hospitals make a lot of money when they do it.

21 Attorneys General Want U.S. Supreme Court to Uphold Immigration Law - Tennessee Star

Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich is leading a group of 21 attorneys general in an amicus brief regarding federal immigration law.

tennesseestar.com

If you have any knowledge of healthcare billing, you'd know that $40,000 really isn't all that much money. It's about the same as the average hip or knee replacement. More complicated surgeries can run upwards of $100,000. And "a few thousand a year" for hormone treatments is a drop in the bucket.

It may be profitable, but "a huge money maker"? Hardly.

 

[rjs330]

If there’s a “religious” reason to sexually mutilate a baby boy, that’s “okay”?
You sure you wanna go with that?

Are you saying religious people are the only ones who do this?

There are a lot of non-religious people who do this and there are a lot of reasons why it's healthy to do so.

Are you seriously equating circumcision which has many health related benefits to chopping off a penis completely?

If so please explain how chopping of a penis and artificially creating a vagina is the same thing as circumcision which is the removal of some skin for health reasons FOR that particular organ.

 

[rjs330]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?
Are you suggesting that “it’s bad” that competent surgeons to provide these services?
Who better to fill this healthcare niche?

Yes let's have competent surgeons to mutilate kids.

That's the point. I don't understand how you could possibly miss this. The point is it should be done period. These people are making money doing this. They are recommending they do this TO MAKE MONEY. The welfare of the child is not the point to them. And as I have proven this kind of thing is not shown to be good care.

It's nothing more than a money maker. It's not care for the kids.

Are you not aware of the number of people who desist from this as they grow up? What do they do when they desist but have already had their breasts removed?

WATCH: Former transgender child suing doctors who mutilated her for malpractice

NHS gender clinic 'should have challenged me more' over transition

Australian woman suing psychiatrist who approved gender transition

A difficult legal case is unfolding in Australia where a woman is suing the psychiatrist who approved her gender transition to male.

torontosun.com

What do these poor people do when it's too late? Thier breasts are gone? Thier penis and vagina are gone?

Yes I know kids aren't getting bottom surgeries yet. But they have gotten their breasts removed. And now that there is more scrutiny on this and the light has been shown on the practice things are being done to stop this.

You could have the best doctor in the world amputate your arm. The question is, should your perfectly healthy arm be amputated in the first place?

And in this case kids are desisting and they can't recover what was lost.

 

[rjs330]

Yeah, health care is a big business. Are we supposed to be surprised or something?
I mean, might as well complain about how cardiologists are in it for the money or something as a reason to avoid going to the ER if one has chest pains.

Great you admit it's a money maker. Why not ask the question of should we b making money on this?

You guys say it's all about caring for the person. Now you shrug your shoulders at places doing this with the express purpose of making money.

What about the care?

This is about whether or not we should be doing this in the first place to kids. And these places are showing it's not about should we be doing this it's about we can make money doing it.

Cardiologists make money but they are doing it for a medical reason to save the person. They are not operating on perfectly healthy hearts and transplanting a liver in it's place.

 

[rjs330]

If you have any knowledge of healthcare billing, you'd know that $40,000 really isn't all that much money. It's about the same as the average hip or knee replacement. More complicated surgeries can run upwards of $100,000. And "a few thousand a year" for hormone treatments is a drop in the bucket.

It may be profitable, but "a huge money maker"? Hardly.

Wrong. It can cost upwards of a $100, 00. Did you not view the video?

"The Staggering Costs of Being Transgender in the US, Where Even Patients with Health Insurance Can Face Six-figure Bills" - Benji Jones | Mount Sinai - New York.

The staggering costs of being transgender in the US, where even patients with health insurance can face six-figure bills

The high cost of being transgender | CNN

What about the costs of psychological care and the puberty blockers in top of this?

Hormone Blocker Shocker: Drug Costs 8 Times More When Used For Kids

All of you leftists who support this always seem to be lacking in knowledge on this subject.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Wrong. It can cost upwards of a $100, 00. Did you not view the video?

"The Staggering Costs of Being Transgender in the US, Where Even Patients with Health Insurance Can Face Six-figure Bills" - Benji Jones | Mount Sinai - New York.

The staggering costs of being transgender in the US, where even patients with health insurance can face six-figure bills

The high cost of being transgender | CNN

I'm just going off of the article that you provided as your evidence of how this is all a money-making scheme. That's where the $40,000 for top surgery and "a few thousand a year" for hormones came from. And the post that you were responding to with that article was also specifically talking about top surgery.

The fact that it's generally not covered by insurance - from your most recent links - makes it even less of a money-maker as people are less likely to get surgeries done when insurance doesn't cover them (supported by the CNN article you posted, which cites cost as one of the major deciding factors on why transgender people choose to not get surgery).

Also, a quote from one of the articles you cited:

For many years, doctors tried to alleviate gender dysphoria with talk therapy, but in the absence of surgeries and other medical interventions, that approach was an “abysmal failure,” according to Joshua Safer, MD, executive director of the Mount Sinai Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery, and senior faculty of endocrinology, diabetes, and bone disease at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. “We have suicide attempt rates of 40 percent among transgender people where there are no medical interventions offered, and so we know that’s a failed strategy,” said Dr. Safer.

What about the costs of psychological care and the puberty blockers in top of this?

Hormone Blocker Shocker: Drug Costs 8 Times More When Used For Kids

All of you leftists who support this always seem to be lacking in knowledge on this subject.

Yes, the costs of healthcare are rising. We've seen a whole lot of drugs multiply massively in price recently. This is a systemic problem with the US healthcare system as a whole.

Why not ask the question of should we b making money on this?

Why should we be making money off of any healthcare?

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, it isn't.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the age of consent and why it exists.

I think we can safely say that trans activists wish to create an exception, for what may ultimately be an extremely risky set of treatments including hormones, puberty blockers, and surgery.

What is the reason for this exception?

I've heard tales of suicide prevention and whenever I check the data....suicide rates under 16 are remarkably low. I mean they're extremely low....amongst the lowest of any age group.

Is there any data that actually backs up these suicide claims? I'm aware trans people kill themselves at higher rates than the general population....but we're mostly talking about adults, many of whom have transitioned.

Is there a study showing trans kids are killing themselves at a young age...specifically because they cannot access life altering medical treatment?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm just going off of the article that you provided as your evidence of how this is all a money-making scheme. That's where the $40,000 for top surgery and "a few thousand a year" for hormones came from. And the post that you were responding to with that article was also specifically talking about top surgery.

The fact that it's generally not covered by insurance - from your most recent links - makes it even less of a money-maker as people are less likely to get surgeries done when insurance doesn't cover them (supported by the CNN article you posted, which cites cost as one of the major deciding factors on why transgender people choose to not get surgery).

Also, a quote from one of the articles you cited:



Yes, the costs of healthcare are rising. We've seen a whole lot of drugs multiply massively in price recently. This is a systemic problem with the US healthcare system as a whole.


Why should we be making money off of any healthcare?

Well it's a service bring provided....and typically, money attracts a better level of service.


Regardless though, if this is your complaint....I'd agree and say there's all sorts of problems with this industry.

Why wouldn't we fix that first before moving on to any transgender issues as a society?


Otherwise we risk making this industry vastly wealthier and harder to fix.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would say that the topic, in general (regardless of the side and advocate comes down on) has a "science problem".

In that, while the psychiatric and psychological professions have been well aware of gender dysphoria for quite some time, some of the current things being discussed and tried have no long term data, so for either side to pretend to know (and accuse the other side of science denial) is putting the cart before the horse.


While it's not an exact apples to apples comparison, look at what took place with regards to ADHD, and you'll see there are some similarities.

One of the key ones being both the polarization with regards to the "best approach", along with the influx of parents (who may have been well meaning) assuming "that must be what my kid has because I noticed a few of the same things described, let's get them on the medical intervention as soon as possible!"

It ended up with one part of the population insisting that "progressive parenting is to blame...the kids just need a good spanking, look at me, I turned out alright!" and another part of the population throwing caution to the wind & racing to prematurely put their kids on Ritalin. For a majority of kids, neither of those answers were the correct one.

I know you actually look for and read evidence sometimes....

Have you found the study proving suicide rates for prepubescent trans people are at some level that demands intervention?


Because I've looked...I can't find it.


That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. The closest I've found is some speculation about anecdotal cases that are slim on proof....nothing even remotely close to something we should consider "factual"...and every time I see even professionals talk about this suicide rate, there's no citation.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't see many kids suffering emotional trauma because they aren't allowed to.

But in any case, we aren't talking about KIDS. You specifically said this was about chopping off BREASTS, and I don't know about you, but I don't see many eight year olds who need bras. We are talking about young people who have reached puberty. Why shouldn't they be allowed to decide what happens to their own bodies?

I remember some girls developing early....and yes, we would call them children, early teens, or something similar. I myself began going through puberty in elementary school at 4th grade....before everyone. Full blown acne and the voice of a much larger person to the degree I'd see eyes widen when I spoke. By 5th or 6th grade I was the tallest in my class.

I can say to a certainty I should not have been granted autonomy for medical care....or much at all really.

I doubt I had the maturity at 18 to make such choices....but a line has to be drawn somewhere.