The Most Passionate Science Deniers Are Pro-Trans ‘Experts’ Who Profit From Carving Up Kids

Ana the Ist

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I have a source that shows that gender affirming care for trans people, particularly youths, can reduce the risk of suicide by 73%.


Here's another source that shows that the health care reduces the risk of suicide.

Gender-Affirming Care Linked To Less Depression, Lower Suicide Risk For Trans Youth

Here's another source.

I'm interested in actual suicide rates. I get they're depressed. Lots of teens struggle with multiple psychological issues. I don't intend to solve them all....but if a particular group is actually killing themselves at an abnormally high rate...I think that's worth looking into.

I remember reading a couple of years ago that the suicide rate of young black men from 13-17 had jumped significantly. This made a couple of headlines....then went away.

This isn't the worst study I've seen...it's actually pretty fair. It openly admits it doesn't demonstrate correlation between receiving hormones and suicidality. It points out some of the weaker flaws in the math when so much relies on guesswork. It's honest.

The thing is....it doesn't remotely tell me what I'm trying to find out. I want to know the suicide rate of transgender youth. We aren't talking about a small issue here....we're talking about giving children the ability to give consent to the sort of life altering medical treatments an adult would struggle with. To even bother with considering this problem I'd like to know how big the problem actually is.


I'm old enough to remember when this community lied about the number of times they got murdered compared to everyone else. I did the math, and found out the only group that got murdered less was the asian community. Why did everyone believe they were murder victims at some extraordinary rate? Because they made this claim over and over again and people are dumb. They don't check the numbers. So, because you're a logical person, and I'm sure you wouldn't risk widespread harm to children over some made up problem.....


Can you tell me what the trans youth suicide rate is? I don't even care if they killed themselves over the supposed unavailability of treatments....I'm making it really simple. We're talking about trans youth....17yo and younger....who succeeded in a suicide against the entire population of trans youth.

Because once we have that number (an actual number not a multivariate regression estimate based on 12 dead kids or something) we can compare it against others to see who has a problem.

Does that make sense to you?


Multiple studies:

In a study presented to the American Academy of Pediatrics, research showed a 60% decrease in moderate and severe depression who received gender-affirming care.
Additionally, there was 73% decrease in suicidality among transgender youth and non-binary youth. A fantastic feat for a community with an alarmingly high transgender suicide rate.

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

The study revealed high rates of suicidal ideation (84 per cent lifetime prevalence) and attempted suicide (48 per cent lifetime prevalence) within this sample. A supportive environment for social transition and timely access to gender reassignment, for those who required it, emerged as key protective factors. Subsequently, gender dysphoria, confusion/denial about gender, fears around transitioning, gender reassignment treatment delays and refusals, and social stigma increased suicide risk within this sample.

Even just reducing rates of misgendering of trans youth has been shown to have a major impact on suicide rates:


After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.



New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health: Health Care Is A Right, Not A Privilege.

And here's a source which shows that the things that increase the risk of a trans person taking their own lives is bullying, discrimination, mistreatment from family, etc.

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health: Health Care Is A Right, Not A Privilege.

In short, treating trans people as less than human and denying them healthcare increases the risk of suicide and depression, while giving them gender affirming healthcare if they desire it increases the chance that they will not suffer from depression or take their own lives.
I read the first study...really not bad. I'm not going to shred it apart. It's honest.

Just looking at the titles of the rest of your gish gallop doesn't encourage me to hope the number I'm looking for is in there somewhere.
 
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rjs330

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Multiple studies:

In a study presented to the American Academy of Pediatrics, research showed a 60% decrease in moderate and severe depression who received gender-affirming care.
Additionally, there was 73% decrease in suicidality among transgender youth and non-binary youth. A fantastic feat for a community with an alarmingly high transgender suicide rate.

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

The study revealed high rates of suicidal ideation (84 per cent lifetime prevalence) and attempted suicide (48 per cent lifetime prevalence) within this sample. A supportive environment for social transition and timely access to gender reassignment, for those who required it, emerged as key protective factors. Subsequently, gender dysphoria, confusion/denial about gender, fears around transitioning, gender reassignment treatment delays and refusals, and social stigma increased suicide risk within this sample.

Even just reducing rates of misgendering of trans youth has been shown to have a major impact on suicide rates:


After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.

The truth is those so called studies are extremely flawed. So flawed in fact that they are not accepted as reliable.

There are so many things wrong with all of them. They are scientifically accurate and cannot be listed as true scientific research.

Yet the transactivista keep using them any way.

I already had this discussion with another trans activist supporter. I provided the evidence why these so called studies are completely unreliable and cannot be used to support the claim that transgendering actually reduces suicidal tendencies.

They are using control groups they are losing track of those they study. Here's what one researcher had to say.

Overall, the quality and strength of evidence were low due to mostly observational study designs with no comparison groups, subjective endpoints, potential confounding (a situation where the association between the intervention and outcome is influenced by another factor such as a co-intervention), small sample sizes, lack of validated assessment tools, and considerable lost to follow-up.

So there is no real evidence that transgendering really reduces suicidial tendencies long term.

There do seem to be some short term benefits in this area. It's called a euphoric stage where the person feels better for a while. But it's not long term.
 
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Kylie

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Yet they still happened.
I'd find the claim of care more convincing if those who called this out also called out the greater threats to people.

But it's hypocrisy to turn a blind eye to one threat while claiming that a much smaller danger requires urgent action to be taken against it.
 
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Kylie

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Your argument is faulty. If it doesn't affect me but affects someone else I have nothing to say about it?

You don't think transgenderism affects anyone who isn't trans?

What about parents? What about women in women's sports? What about the women in prison who now have a man in with them and who have been raped by them? What about the girls in a locker room who are forced to change in front of a male?

To say transgenderism and specifically transgenderism of kids affects no one but the trans is ignorant.
And of course the answer to this is to not allow trans people to transition at all, isn't it?

Do you also believe the best way to avoid children being killed in car accidents is to make car use illegal?
 
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Kylie

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I'm interested in actual suicide rates. I get they're depressed. Lots of teens struggle with multiple psychological issues. I don't intend to solve them all....but if a particular group is actually killing themselves at an abnormally high rate...I think that's worth looking into.

I remember reading a couple of years ago that the suicide rate of young black men from 13-17 had jumped significantly. This made a couple of headlines....then went away.

This isn't the worst study I've seen...it's actually pretty fair. It openly admits it doesn't demonstrate correlation between receiving hormones and suicidality. It points out some of the weaker flaws in the math when so much relies on guesswork. It's honest.

The thing is....it doesn't remotely tell me what I'm trying to find out. I want to know the suicide rate of transgender youth. We aren't talking about a small issue here....we're talking about giving children the ability to give consent to the sort of life altering medical treatments an adult would struggle with. To even bother with considering this problem I'd like to know how big the problem actually is.


I'm old enough to remember when this community lied about the number of times they got murdered compared to everyone else. I did the math, and found out the only group that got murdered less was the asian community. Why did everyone believe they were murder victims at some extraordinary rate? Because they made this claim over and over again and people are dumb. They don't check the numbers. So, because you're a logical person, and I'm sure you wouldn't risk widespread harm to children over some made up problem.....


Can you tell me what the trans youth suicide rate is? I don't even care if they killed themselves over the supposed unavailability of treatments....I'm making it really simple. We're talking about trans youth....17yo and younger....who succeeded in a suicide against the entire population of trans youth.

Because once we have that number (an actual number not a multivariate regression estimate based on 12 dead kids or something) we can compare it against others to see who has a problem.

Does that make sense to you?
I literally provided you with several sources about trans youth suicides.
Just looking at the titles of the rest of your gish gallop doesn't encourage me to hope the number I'm looking for is in there somewhere.
Gish gallop? All my sources were saying the same thing. That's not a gish gallop.
 
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rjs330

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I'd find the claim of care more convincing if those who called this out also called out the greater threats to people.

But it's hypocrisy to turn a blind eye to one threat while claiming that a much smaller danger requires urgent action to be taken against it.

We are talking about kids. Period. Kids with a desist rate of as high as 85%. That's a very good reason to not allow this, period.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Trans people shouldn't be allowed to present as their identified gender because you find it confusing to use the pronouns they ask you to.

Really. That's your argument?
No....and judging by the rest of your post, your repeated mischaracterization of my position is going to be a running theme.

Is this some sort of reading issue? Do you understand the words I'm saying?

Trans people can present however they want. If you look like a man or woman in my eyes though....I shouldn't fear punishment because you disagree based upon some feelings. I can't see your feelings. I don't care enough about most people to remember their names let alone their pronouns. I do what trans people do and everyone else does and has done for all time....I call it as I see it.




Yeah, because the hormones a transwoman uses as part of the transitioning process don't affect her strength, stamina or endurance at all.

I didn't say anything about that....nor do I see why it's relevant. We all watched a transwoman who when competing as a man wouldn't be in the top 300....end up 1st against the actual woman. It doesn't really seem to matter what hormones anyone takes or doesn't.



Ah, the old "trans people are sexual predators" argument. Yeah, that's real convincing. How many times has a person pretended to be trans in order to sexually assault someone else?

You want a hard number or just anecdotal recent cases?

Because when this issue was first brought up, we were assured by it's advocates that such victimization wouldn't happen....and we had no reason to believe it would.

Since then it's happened repeatedly....over and over. I don't know how many more women have been victimized by what you support, but we know some have. I suppose that's ok for you....since you don't really know how big this problem is you can imagine it larger or smaller as best suits your position.



Please tell me you aren't so deluded as to believe this.


You seem to care an awful lot, considering the arguments against it you just presented.

I said they have equal opportunities....not equal outcomes.

Unfortunately, there was this whole "MeToo" movement where mob justice was used to ruin the lives and careers of men who had never faced any sort of criminal accusation at all.

Someone made an analogy I thought was fitting....imagine you had a big bowl of skittles and I told you that one could be poisonous. How many would you eat?

Since then men have been a little reluctant to work closely with women.



And most trans people don't start transitioning until they are older than that. "Transgender women lived an average 27.1 years and transgender men 22.9 years before they began social transition and/or hormonal therapy treatments." Most Gender Dysphoria Established by Age 7 | Cedars-Sinai

I agree that we shouldn't be putting kids under the knife because they are trans. But that pretty much never happens. A few extraordinarily rare cases, but it is nowhere near the alarmist numbers the OP would have us believe.

It's the care model that's really at the heart of this problem. I don't think you know what it says to do.


Regardless, imagine I told you that I had a problem....a really significant problem that was part of my identity.....in fact, it makes me suicidal.

Regardless of whatever this problem is...would it be reasonable for me to suggest all of society changes to my liking? That they accept what I say is true or remain silent? If these are the only possible ways to "fix" my problem I would expect people to tell me I need to learn to live with it....to accept I cannot solve it. It's an unreasonable request.

What do you think? Should all society change to accommodate me and those like me? Is that a reasonable solution?


I would contend that fundamentally that what I'm asking of you....and all society....is far more immoral than what you ask of me, to learn to deal with it. It shouldn't matter how pathetic I portray myself as... nor how difficult my struggle. To ask such things of you and everyone else makes me a tyrant beyond the need of any compassion or consideration. After all, there's nothing stopping me from doing what everyone else does....my problem is that doing so makes me suicidal, so everyone has to change.
 
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kiwimac

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I'd be curious to see the raw data which led to the conclusion in the thread title, assuming there is actually are studies empiricily ranking the passion of various groups of science deniers.
Assuming it isn't simply made up click bait, of course.
Wouldn't hold the breath.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'll just save people some time here....you trust the New York Times, right?


The [COLOR=var(--color-signal-editorial,#326891)]U.S. Census Bureau[/COLOR] began asking questions about sexual orientation and gender identity only last year, part of a new data collection effort. And even national suicide statistics — important in the study of this vulnerable population — do not have information about sexuality or gender identity.

So we don't know, because we don't have the number.


When we talk about people at risk of suicide....you know who gets top priority from me? The people actually killing themselves.

Who are they? We can tell you by race....but not gender dysphoria. We have exactly 0 hard facts to point to.


That means this problem is either huge and very important....more teeny tiny and just has a lot of people lying about it's importance. Suicidal ideation and suicide attempts aren't suicide. For all we know....hetero black youth commit suicide far more frequently. Maybe middle aged asians.....who knows?


Nobody arguing that this is a problem so important it requires the restructuring of all society knows. Those people ain't so bright.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Really? You've never seen anyone say that they think trans people getting gender affirming surgery is a bad thing?

REALLY?

Sorry, I almost forgot about this one....

I didn't say I never see anyone say gender affirming surgery is a bad thing. I've seen people who have gone through it say this. Of course I've heard that....

I said I've never heard anyone advocate this is something adults should not be allowed to choose to do to themselves. If gender affirming treatment is what you want....I hope it works out for you, sincerely.

In case you missed my previous post....that's not the problem. The problem is people have been told there's a suicide crisis....trans youth bodies dead and lifeless, just cluttering the streets. A mountain of corpses so high it demands we rethink everything we previously thought and give children the ability to consent to lifelong medical treatments and interventions for which they cannot possibly understand the consequences of....to save them from a similar fate.

I mean, fortunately I'm not an idiot who would just believe something like that without at least checking first. I don't want to advocate for something that might actually be doing more harm than good because I'm lazy or stupid.

I'm curious on how you arrived at your conclusion? How did you end up sooooo confident about a problem that you don't actually know exists? I mean, I'm sure there's some process by which one arrives there but please....describe it....because it's baffling to me. Obviously we can assume that there's some trans youth committing suicide....and even though I couldn't find the suicide rate, once I learned they were now a significantly larger portion of that age group I thought "perfect, there should be a corresponding raise in suicide across the entire age group" but I didn't see that either.


Any chance you think this likelihood of suicide has been....I dunno....dramatically misrepresented in order to gain a sort of sympathy from people who seem to think morality is something to demonstrate online devoid of any knowledge of the issue?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'd find the claim of care more convincing if those who called this out also called out the greater threats to people.

Greater threats?

Compared to this one? We don't seem to know how big this problem is....and it's not impossible to find out. We definitely could know.


But it's hypocrisy to turn a blind eye to one threat while claiming that a much smaller danger requires urgent action to be taken against it.

Smaller? Than what? Trans youth suicide?


Do you have the rate for trans youth suicide or not? I don't care about ideation or failed attempts. In terms of damage, those are far less significant than actual suicide.

For example, we've known for a long time women attempt suicide more often than men....but men succeed more often.


If I'm going to prioritize those problems...I'm more concerned about the people killing themselves. I've got more time to deal with those who try and fail....they're still alive.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I literally provided you with several sources about trans youth suicides.
You provided me with sources about suicidal ideation (thinking about suicide) which will never be a high enough priority to justify the treatments suggested.

You also included attempted suicide. I'm assuming they failed in their attempts because they filled out surveys.

I have no idea what the actual suicide rates are....and that seems like it's really important to know for what is being suggested to treat it.


Gish gallop? All my sources were saying the same thing. That's not a gish gallop.

When I ask for 1 number that only requires knowing 2 other numbers and a calculator...anything more than 1 source is overkill.
 
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rjs330

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What in the world is a desist rate?

You have proven yourself over and over again to not know much about this issue. It's time you did your own deep dive research.

You'll find the majority of "we have to allow kids to transgender" information is bogus.
 
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KCfromNC

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Great you admit it's a money maker. Why not ask the question of should we b making money on this?

This isn't really the thread for advocating for the benefits of replacing our for-profit health care industry with a more efficient government-run option.
 
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KCfromNC

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I'm interested in actual suicide rates. I get they're depressed. Lots of teens struggle with multiple psychological issues. I don't intend to solve them all....but if a particular group is actually killing themselves at an abnormally high rate...I think that's worth looking into.
Perhaps others are willing to look at interventions to help before kids start killing themselves.
Just a thought.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Ana the Ist

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You have proven yourself over and over again to not know much about this issue. It's time you did your own deep dive research.

You'll find the majority of "we have to allow kids to transgender" information is bogus.
Is this weird to you?

I know you were on that other thread I made about the shooter and everyone there was basically completely unfamiliar with the rule that you cannot question a gender identity and claim to believe this stuff.

I honestly expected a completely different convo....instead it was just a list posters supporting something they clearly haven't even skimmed the notes on.

And here's a list that again shows....no clue on the facts. I don't understand how someone doesn't understand either the theory or the science....but fully supports the claims.
 
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