The Most Passionate Science Deniers Are Pro-Trans ‘Experts’ Who Profit From Carving Up Kids

[Ana the Ist]

No I didn't. These decisions aren't made in a vacuum. A parent works with the child to understand what problems they are experiencing and working out what solutions might be appropriate. Belly hurt? Appendicitis? Appendectomy!

The parent works out these solutions with the aid of doctors and other professionals. At least I can't recall the last time a mom cut out a kids appendix with her own pocket knife.

Do you not understand parenting at all?

My child starts expressing things that sound like gender dysphoria. "Daddy, I wish I were a boy." "Gee sweetie, why do you wish that?" Do you really think parents are dragging their kids to the doctor demanding that the doctor change the kid?

This is how it seems like you think reality goes:

• Parent: Change my boy to a girl
• Doctor: OK
• Timmy: But I don't want to be a girl
• Doctor: Shut up, Timmy. Yo daddy said you need to be girl, so you gonna be a girl

I mean, seriously.

After probably months of the kid expressing things that would disconcerting to any parent, the parent takes the kid to a psychologist. After months, years, of counseling, the psychologist says, "yunno, I think this could be real. I'm referring you to a specialist."

After much time with a specialist, a decision is made. The child isn't forced; the parent isn't forced. Whatever the decision is, it is made after much deliberation and care. And much like you might make a decision to treat your kid for cancer, you make a decision about Gender Reaffirming Surgery (or whatever the acronym is this week.)

This is NOT random, arbitrary, just because, decision making.

Here's a story for you.

I have a child with multiple psychological diagnoses. From the time the child was 4, we had her in counseling. At one point we had to switch counselors because the counselor said she was out of her depth with our kid.

From about age 8, she expressed gender dysphoria. From age 10 to 20, she tried to commit suicide about twice a year. This meant she was committed to psych wards at least twice a year. Sometimes we didn't have a choice because the law where we live is such that a person that is a danger to themselves had to be committed. Didn't matter what the conditions were. Didn't matter that we felt that this time wasn't as big a deal as last time. (Maybe that's good; maybe that's bad. But, that's life.)

All along the way gender dysphoria was expressed. The thing for my spouse and me was that this was not a constant. It came and it went. Her behavior patterns were in no way masculine. It turns out that one of her diagnoses comes with a side of gender dysphoria. We knew, somewhat instinctively and later more explicitly, that this was a side effect of her more serious problems.

Now, almost in her mid-20s, she understands herself better. She still has those feelings, but she knows that she experiences them in times of stress and she knows the feelings will go away in time. She no longer buys binders since they are a waste of money if the feelings will go away.

Thank goodness for reaching that magical time of 25-26 when the human brain is more-or-less mature. She may actually out-live us as we expect our other children will. She will likely die as she was born, a female.

You may think that this is a happy ending. And, it is. But not because she's staying a female. It's because, at least in this regard, she's figured out how to navigate her emotions and employ learned coping mechanisms. It is likely that she will never have a regular job. But, she may yet be able to describe her life as fulfilling.

See, here's the thing: it could have gone the other way. Maybe she didn't have other diagnoses. Maybe she wasn't suicidal. Maybe she did have persistent masculine traits (whatever those might be). And maybe, the psychologist, psychiatrist, and gender experts would have said, "yup, she/he is a classic case".

It would have been hard. But, we'd have paid for our child to be happy if we were convinced it were necessary -- even given a risk that all of it were wrong.

Y'all know nothing of what it is like to walk this walk or you wouldn't say such ignorant things.

I'd like to imagine this is what's happening. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way. I think the AMA or maybe it's the American Psychological Association literally provides the total picture of the affirmative care model (the standard care model for any gender dysphoria cases). It falls way short of what you think is happening.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No I didn't. These decisions aren't made in a vacuum. A parent works with the child to understand what problems they are experiencing and working out what solutions might be appropriate. Belly hurt? Appendicitis? Appendectomy!

The parent works out these solutions with the aid of doctors and other professionals. At least I can't recall the last time a mom cut out a kids appendix with her own pocket knife.

Do you not understand parenting at all?

My child starts expressing things that sound like gender dysphoria. "Daddy, I wish I were a boy." "Gee sweetie, why do you wish that?" Do you really think parents are dragging their kids to the doctor demanding that the doctor change the kid?

This is how it seems like you think reality goes:

• Parent: Change my boy to a girl
• Doctor: OK
• Timmy: But I don't want to be a girl
• Doctor: Shut up, Timmy. Yo daddy said you need to be girl, so you gonna be a girl

I mean, seriously.

After probably months of the kid expressing things that would disconcerting to any parent, the parent takes the kid to a psychologist. After months, years, of counseling, the psychologist says, "yunno, I think this could be real. I'm referring you to a specialist."

After much time with a specialist, a decision is made. The child isn't forced; the parent isn't forced. Whatever the decision is, it is made after much deliberation and care. And much like you might make a decision to treat your kid for cancer, you make a decision about Gender Reaffirming Surgery (or whatever the acronym is this week.)

This is NOT random, arbitrary, just because, decision making.

Here's a story for you.

I have a child with multiple psychological diagnoses. From the time the child was 4, we had her in counseling. At one point we had to switch counselors because the counselor said she was out of her depth with our kid.

From about age 8, she expressed gender dysphoria. From age 10 to 20, she tried to commit suicide about twice a year. This meant she was committed to psych wards at least twice a year. Sometimes we didn't have a choice because the law where we live is such that a person that is a danger to themselves had to be committed. Didn't matter what the conditions were. Didn't matter that we felt that this time wasn't as big a deal as last time. (Maybe that's good; maybe that's bad. But, that's life.)

All along the way gender dysphoria was expressed. The thing for my spouse and me was that this was not a constant. It came and it went. Her behavior patterns were in no way masculine. It turns out that one of her diagnoses comes with a side of gender dysphoria. We knew, somewhat instinctively and later more explicitly, that this was a side effect of her more serious problems.

Now, almost in her mid-20s, she understands herself better. She still has those feelings, but she knows that she experiences them in times of stress and she knows the feelings will go away in time. She no longer buys binders since they are a waste of money if the feelings will go away.

Thank goodness for reaching that magical time of 25-26 when the human brain is more-or-less mature. She may actually out-live us as we expect our other children will. She will likely die as she was born, a female.

You may think that this is a happy ending. And, it is. But not because she's staying a female. It's because, at least in this regard, she's figured out how to navigate her emotions and employ learned coping mechanisms. It is likely that she will never have a regular job. But, she may yet be able to describe her life as fulfilling.

See, here's the thing: it could have gone the other way. Maybe she didn't have other diagnoses. Maybe she wasn't suicidal. Maybe she did have persistent masculine traits (whatever those might be). And maybe, the psychologist, psychiatrist, and gender experts would have said, "yup, she/he is a classic case".

It would have been hard. But, we'd have paid for our child to be happy if we were convinced it were necessary -- even given a risk that all of it were wrong.

Y'all know nothing of what it is like to walk this walk or you wouldn't say such ignorant things.

I'll just elaborate....because frankly, I think what you're describing is what should happen.


However, you may recall a couple of years ago that the trans community succeeded in lobbying themselves out of the DSM. It, much like homosexuality, was no longer considered a mental illness.

That means there is no diagnosis process that's required.

So if you can now imagine if you took your 8yo daughter to the Dr, he'll refer you to a specialist. That specialist will diagnose the gender dysphoria, tell you your child is transgender, and to begin treatment immediately.

The trans activists who pushed for this change were deeply offended by these doctors who weren't immediately convinced of their claims....and now "transgender" isn't a diagnosis. Gender dysphoria is....and if the reason why the child feels any gender dysphoria is, because they claim to feel like the opposite gender inside....the affirmative care model says to agree they are.

That's the new process. You might think a Dr would be afraid of misdiagnosis but again, there's no diagnosis for transgender required to begin treatment....only a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Since it's the standard care model....a Dr can get in serious trouble for not following it.


Cases like your daughter's are actually far more common than cases of genuine transgenderism. That's why people are concerned....there's a real risk of children being permanently harmed.

 

[Kylie]

What an absolute joke that term is.

What an insult to anybody with half a brain.

That phrase was created, and embraced, by people who wish to make it sound like somebody acquired a terminal illness and this is what must be done to keep them comfortable until their final day.

How absolutely RIDICULOUS.

This entire movement is such an utter CHARADE.

I wouldn't want to offend anybody who's all for it, but WHAT ABOUT US? What about the rest of us who live here, pay taxes, raise and care for families and have to deal with the fallout of such lunacy on a daily basis.

Do WE get a vote? Is it ok if we're offended??

How does it even affect you?

 

[Kylie]

Have you done ANY research on this?

I never claimed a 5 year old got one. Where on earth did you ever come up with the claim that I said that happened. Kids as young as 13 have had surgeries. There is proof of that.

13-year-olds given mastectomies at California clinic

That's just one. The NY Times wrote an article on it being do w in New York.

So perhaps you can consider yourself more informed now.

No, but Hannah did, post 23.

And from the numbers in that article, it seems like that is a tiny percentage of the total cases of people who have such surgeries.

 

[Kylie]

I didn't claim five year olds. And Tinker proved my point. I was right.

Kids can't make that decision on their own. They HAVE to have parental consent. Or in the case of the government taking away the parents rights because the parents won't agree then the government does it.

The kids do NOT have the mental maturity to know what they are doing.

Most people recognize this.

Young Teen Brains Are Immature, Just Like The Stereotype

According to popular stereotype, young teenagers are shortsighted, leaving them prone to poor judgment and risky decision-making when it comes to issues like taking drugs and having sex and a new study confirms that.

www.science20.com

I'm not suggesting that kids should be able to have surgery. My argument is that if this happens, it is a SMALL NUMBER of cases, and certainly nowhere near sufficient to justify outlawing such surgeries for everyone.

"No, that 25 year old trans person can't get surgery because if they can, then soon doctors will be forcing them on preteens!"

 

[Ana the Ist]

How does it even affect you?

It seems like a mistake to wait until one is personally affected by this issue.

It appears as if a lot of people change their minds on the issue once personally affected.

This involves sweeping changes to society and social norms. Anyone in those societies has every reason to consider and question them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

"No, that 25 year old trans person can't get surgery because if they can, then soon doctors will be forcing them on preteens!"

Have you ever seen anyone actually make this argument?

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, but Hannah did, post 23.

And from the numbers in that article, it seems like that is a tiny percentage of the total cases of people who have such surgeries.

Following up on a child for 2 years isn't a great basis for long term results.

When you consider the suicide rates of adults who transition....it doesn't seem like an effective treatment.

 

[Kylie]

It seems like a mistake to wait until one is personally affected by this issue.

It appears as if a lot of people change their minds on the issue once personally affected.

This involves sweeping changes to society and social norms. Anyone in those societies has every reason to consider and question them.

How could it possibly affect anyone who isn't trans?

And if the societal norm is to force other people into the gender roles and identities that someone thinks they should have instead of letting the person decide for themselves, then I think that norm needs to be changed.

 

[Kylie]

Following up on a child for 2 years isn't a great basis for long term results.

When you consider the suicide rates of adults who transition....it doesn't seem like an effective treatment.

Got a source that shows those rates?

 

[Kylie]

Have you ever seen anyone actually make this argument?

It seems to be the general sentiment of opponents to trans folk. Do whatever they can to deny them the treatment they want and come up with some absolute nonsense to justify it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Got a source that shows those rates?

Suicide Thoughts and Attempts Among Transgender Adults

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

So we're looking at adults who are either openly trans or seen that way (because of some degree of transitioning).


50% roughly attempted suicide in the years studied.

Now, interestingly those who detransitioned were more suicidal. You know who was least suicidal? Those who don't transition.

That's odd. Do you have a source that shows that these trans children are killing themselves at some crisis rate? Because that's hard to find.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How could it possibly affect anyone who isn't trans?

Your job might fire you for "misgendering" someone.

Or perhaps that trans woman who joined the swim team now holds every record and you'll never win again.

Or perhaps that trans person in the showers makes people uncomfortable by parading their genitalia in front of children and happens to also be a sex offender.

And if the societal norm is to force other people into the gender roles.

This has nothing to do with gender roles. Any woman who wants to pursue any occupation or opportunity a man does.....can.

and identities that someone thinks they should have

Nobody cares about anyone's identity. You can scream that you're trans in the streets for all I care.

instead of letting the person decide for themselves, then I think that norm needs to be changed.

They can decide for themselves....when we typically hold them to the same level of responsibility for their actions as everyone else....18 years old, generally speaking.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It seems to be the general sentiment of opponents to trans folk. Do whatever they can to deny them the treatment they want and come up with some absolute nonsense to justify it.

I've never seen anyone suggest that they cannot have any elective surgery or treatment at 18. I've seen people suggest that perhaps they shouldn't....but not support the idea of preventing them.

 

[Kylie]

Suicide Thoughts and Attempts Among Transgender Adults

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

So we're looking at adults who are either openly trans or seen that way (because of some degree of transitioning).


50% roughly attempted suicide in the years studied.

Now, interestingly those who detransitioned were more suicidal. You know who was least suicidal? Those who don't transition.

That's odd. Do you have a source that shows that these trans children are killing themselves at some crisis rate? Because that's hard to find.

I have a source that shows that gender affirming care for trans people, particularly youths, can reduce the risk of suicide by 73%.

Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care

This cohort study investigates whether gender-affirming care is associated with decreased depression, anxiety, and suicidality among transgender and nonbinary youths.

jamanetwork.com

Here's another source that shows that the health care reduces the risk of suicide.

Gender-Affirming Care Linked To Less Depression, Lower Suicide Risk For Trans Youth

Here's another source.

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health: Health Care Is A Right, Not A Privilege.

And here's a source which shows that the things that increase the risk of a trans person taking their own lives is bullying, discrimination, mistreatment from family, etc.

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health: Health Care Is A Right, Not A Privilege.

In short, treating trans people as less than human and denying them healthcare increases the risk of suicide and depression, while giving them gender affirming healthcare if they desire it increases the chance that they will not suffer from depression or take their own lives.

 

[Gene2memE]

Is there a study showing trans kids are killing themselves at a young age...specifically because they cannot access life altering medical treatment?

Multiple studies:

New Study Shows Gender-Affirming Care Reduces Teen Suicide

What Is the Transgender Suicide Rate? Why Is the Transgender Suicide Rate So High? Affirming care results in a 73% decrease in suicidality.

www.gendergp.com

​

In a study presented to the American Academy of Pediatrics, research showed a 60% decrease in moderate and severe depression who received gender-affirming care.​

​

Additionally, there was 73% decrease in suicidality among transgender youth and non-binary youth. A fantastic feat for a community with an alarmingly high transgender suicide rate.​

​

What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? | What We Know

Overview We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%)...

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.​

Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transition in decreasing suicidal ideation and suicide attempt | Emerald Insight

Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transition in decreasing suicidal ideation and suicide attempt - Author: Louis Bailey, Sonja J. Ellis, Jay McNeil

www.emerald.com

​

The study revealed high rates of suicidal ideation (84 per cent lifetime prevalence) and attempted suicide (48 per cent lifetime prevalence) within this sample. A supportive environment for social transition and timely access to gender reassignment, for those who required it, emerged as key protective factors. Subsequently, gender dysphoria, confusion/denial about gender, fears around transitioning, gender reassignment treatment delays and refusals, and social stigma increased suicide risk within this sample.​

Even just reducing rates of misgendering of trans youth has been shown to have a major impact on suicide rates:

Chosen Name Use Is Linked to Reduced Depressive Symptoms, Suicidal Ideation, and Suicidal Behavior Among Transgender Youth - PubMed

For transgender youth who choose a name different from the one given at birth, use of their chosen name in multiple contexts affirms their gender identity and reduces mental health risks known to be high in this group.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.​

 

[Kylie]

Your job might fire you for "misgendering" someone.

Trans people shouldn't be allowed to present as their identified gender because you find it confusing to use the pronouns they ask you to.

Really. That's your argument?

Or perhaps that trans woman who joined the swim team now holds every record and you'll never win again.

Yeah, because the hormones a transwoman uses as part of the transitioning process don't affect her strength, stamina or endurance at all.

Or perhaps that trans person in the showers makes people uncomfortable by parading their genitalia in front of children and happens to also be a sex offender.

Ah, the old "trans people are sexual predators" argument. Yeah, that's real convincing. How many times has a person pretended to be trans in order to sexually assault someone else?

This has nothing to do with gender roles. Any woman who wants to pursue any occupation or opportunity a man does.....can.

Please tell me you aren't so deluded as to believe this.

Gender Inequality in the Workplace: The Fight Against Bias

Gender inequality in the workplace is fueled by many factors. This article provides tips to avoid gender inequality for both employees and managers.

www.betterup.com

Nobody cares about anyone's identity. You can scream that you're trans in the streets for all I care.

You seem to care an awful lot, considering the arguments against it you just presented.

They can decide for themselves....when we typically hold them to the same level of responsibility for their actions as everyone else....18 years old, generally speaking.

And most trans people don't start transitioning until they are older than that. "Transgender women lived an average 27.1 years and transgender men 22.9 years before they began social transition and/or hormonal therapy treatments." Most Gender Dysphoria Established by Age 7 | Cedars-Sinai

I agree that we shouldn't be putting kids under the knife because they are trans. But that pretty much never happens. A few extraordinarily rare cases, but it is nowhere near the alarmist numbers the OP would have us believe.

 

[Kylie]

I've never seen anyone suggest that they cannot have any elective surgery or treatment at 18. I've seen people suggest that perhaps they shouldn't....but not support the idea of preventing them.

Really? You've never seen anyone say that they think trans people getting gender affirming surgery is a bad thing?

REALLY?

 

[rjs330]

No, but Hannah did, post 23.

And from the numbers in that article, it seems like that is a tiny percentage of the total cases of people who have such surgeries.

Yet they still happened.

 

[rjs330]

How could it possibly affect anyone who isn't trans?

And if the societal norm is to force other people into the gender roles and identities that someone thinks they should have instead of letting the person decide for themselves, then I think that norm needs to be changed.

Your argument is faulty. If it doesn't affect me but affects someone else I have nothing to say about it?

You don't think transgenderism affects anyone who isn't trans?

What about parents? What about women in women's sports? What about the women in prison who now have a man in with them and who have been raped by them? What about the girls in a locker room who are forced to change in front of a male?

To say transgenderism and specifically transgenderism of kids affects no one but the trans is ignorant.