How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Clare73]

Not an argument: Foreknowledge just means known ahead of time.

There is no Biblical warrant in the NT for "foreknowledge" referring to man's actions.

That is a notion of man interjected into the NT,
much like the notion of immaterial, non-physical is interjected into Paul's use of "spiritual," which never means immaterial in Paul, but always means of the realm of the Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

There is no Biblical warrant in the NT for "foreknowledge" referring to man's actions.

Didn't we just recently talk about that?

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

What was foreknown? That man would deliver over Christ, no?

 

[Clare73]

Didn't we just recently talk about that?

Have you forgotten what I explained then?

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

What was foreknown? That man would deliver over Christ, no?

Which deliverance was foreordained (decreed before the foundations of the world) by God (Mt 26:24), which is why it was foreknown by him, and not because God "looked down the corridors of time and saw" what the Jews would do.

That notion is nowhere found in Scripture, it being a construct of man.

 

[John Mullally]

There is no Biblical warrant in the NT for "foreknowledge" referring to man's actions.

That is a notion of man interjected into the NT,
much like the notion of immaterial, non-physical is interjected into Paul's use of "spiritual," which never means immaterial in Paul, but always means of the realm of the Holy Spirit.

Foreknowledge simply means to know beforehand. You believe God knows man's actions beforehand, but then say that foreknowledge is not referring to man's actions.

Calvinism is a non-starter, God is love (1 John 4:16), who desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). Our God of love does not predestine any to eternal torment in order to receive glory for himself - as Calvin states, as shown below.

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)​

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“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)​

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“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)​

Calvin say that what he teaches is dreadful - on this point I agree.

“Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam’s fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 7)​

 

[Clare73]

Foreknowledge simply means to know beforehand. You believe God knows man's actions beforehand, but then say that foreknowledge is not referring to man's actions.

Previously addressed. . .failed try at confuscation. . .did not say that God's foreknowledge is not referring to man's actions.
It's not about to what foreknowledge is referring, it's about what is foreknowlege's cause.

You base God's foreknowledge in man's actions.
Scripture bases God's foreknowledge in his own actions (decrees).

God knows beforehand because he has decreed that it shall occur, not because man has or will decide anything.

God's own fore-ordination (decree) is God's fore-knowledge, and it is not based in/on anything else, including what anyone does.

"Known to the Lord for ages (fore-knowledge) is his work." (Ac 15:18)

They did what your power and will had decided beforehand (fore-ordained) should happen." (Ac 4:28)

 

[zoidar]

Have you forgotten what I explained then?

Which deliverance was foreordained (decreed before the foundations of the world) by God (Mt 26:24), which is why it was foreknown by him, and not because God "looked down the corridors of time and saw" what the Jews would do.

That notion is nowhere found in Scripture, it being a construct of man.

Why would God need to foreknow what He decreed? Doesn't He know what He decrees? Makes no sense. And what would be the point to say it was foreknown? Wouldn't it be enough to say it was predetermined if it means the same thing?

 

[Clare73]

Why would God need to foreknow what He decreed?

I give up. . .why would he?
See Ac 4:28.

Doesn't He know what He decrees? Makes no sense.

When you get the sense of Ac 4:28, you will get the meaning of God's foreknowledge being based on his own decrees, rather than on what man does.

"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand (decree) should happen." (Ac 4:28)

 

[zoidar]

God knows beforehand because he has decreed that it shall occur, not because man has or will decide anything.

That will be hard for you to prove.

 

[zoidar]

I give up. . .why would he?

When you get the sense of Ac 4:28, you will get the meaning of God's foreknowledge being based on his own decrees.

"They did what your power and will had decided beforehand (decree) should happen." (Ac 4:28)

I think God decrees from His foreknowledge or else the word foreknowledge has no meaning. Of course God knows what He decrees. He doesn't need to foreknow His decrees.

 

[Clare73]

I think God decrees from His foreknowledge or else the word foreknowledge has no meaning. Of course God knows what He decrees.

In Scripture, God's foreknowlege is always of his actions, his decrees (Ac 2:23, 1Pe 1:2, Ac 4:28, Ac 15:18), not man's action.
God decrees based on his purpose and its plan, not on what man does.

 

[zoidar]

In Scripture, God's foreknowlege refers to his actions, his decrees, not man's action.
God decrees based on his purpose and its plan, not on what man does.

You keep saying. Waiting for proof.

You put man's actions against God's actions. That is not necessary to do. I believe God uses man's free will actions when He decrees after His plan and purpose.

 

[Clare73]

You keep saying. Waiting for proof.

You put man's actions against God's actions. That is not necessary to do. I believe God uses man's free will choices when He decrees.

I am speaking of the NT's use of divine foreknowledge. . .what it means in the NT (of God's actions), and what it does not mean in the NT (of man's actions).
The use of divine foreknowledge in the NT cannot be construed to refer to the actions of men.
That is a construct of man.

 

[zoidar]

I am speaking of the NT's use of divine foreknowledge.

So do I.

 

[zoidar]

In Scripture, God's foreknowlege is always of his actions, his decrees (Ac 2:23, 1Pe 1:2, Ac 4:28, Ac 15:18), not man's action.
God decrees based on his purpose and its plan, not on what man does.

You seem to think these verses prove me wrong. Well, they don't. They are just in line with what I believe.

 

[Clare73]

You seem to think these verses prove me wrong. Well, they don't. They are just in line with what I believe.

Then we are agreed. . .

 

[zoidar]

In Scripture, God's foreknowlege is always of his actions, his decrees (Ac 2:23, 1Pe 1:2, Ac 4:28, Ac 15:18), not man's action.
God decrees based on his purpose and its plan, not on what man does.

Why do you think Ac 15:18 says "known" and not "foreknown"?

 

[Clare73]

Why do you think Ac 15:18 says "known" and not "foreknown"?

"Known for ages" implies God knowing from the beginning, or according to Scripture, from before the foundations of the world, what he will do (i.e., divine foreknowledge) because, from before the foundations of the world, he has decreed that he shall do it.

 

[JAL]

In my opinion, a number of passages, on face value, lend some support to the Calvinistic position. I've personally never denied that. However, the mileage varies - some lend more support than others.

In Scripture, God's foreknowlege is always of his actions, his decrees (Ac 2:23, 1Pe 1:2, Ac 4:28, Ac 15:18), not man's action.
God decrees based on his purpose and its plan, not on what man does.

Predetermination and foreknowledge need not mean "in every last detail, from eternity". For example suppose I have predetermined to pay my college loan. And I save up money accordingly. Ten years later, I'm finally able to hand over a check to a (newly hired) receptionist named Barbara.

I foreknew I was going to pay that money - but specifically to Barbara? No. In the same way:
....(1) God foreknew/predetermined that IF Adam fell, Christ would pay for ours sins - specifically via Pontius Pilate ??????
....(2) And once Adam HAD sinned, He DEFINITELY foreknew/predetermined to pay for our sins - specifically via Pontius Pilate ??????

My point: please try not to presumptuously read into such passages more than is fully warranted.

I'll say it again: once we fell in Adam, we lost our rights. At that point God was therefore at liberty to harden any of us to any of His purposes, even to function as a Judas or a Pontius Pilate, predetermining as He wills. This is not necessarily the same as "all things predetermined in every last detail from eternity."

 

[Clare73]

In my opinion, a number of passages, on face value, lend some support to the Calvinistic position. I've personally never denied that. However, the mileage varies - some lend more support than others.

So Calvin wasn't all wrong. . .

Predetermination and foreknowledge need not mean "in every last detail, from eternity". For example suppose I have predetermined to pay my college loan. And I save up money accordingly. Ten years later, I'm finally able to hand over a check to a (newly hired) receptionist named Barbara.
I foreknew I was going to pay that money - but specifically to Barbara? No. In the same way:
....(1) God foreknew/predetermined that IF Adam fell, Christ would pay for ours sins - specifically via Pontius Pilate ??????
....(2) And once Adam HAD sinned, He DEFINITELY foreknew/predetermined to pay for our sins - specifically via Pontius Pilate ??????
My point: please try not to presumptuously read into such passages more than is fully warranted.

Likewise, let's not deny the sovereignty of God in the matters of men to which the Scriptures so amply testify (Da 4:35, Ac 2:23, Ac 4:28, Ac 13:48; Lk 22:22, Ro 8:29-30, Ro 9:14-29, Ro 11:25-34, Eph 1:4-12, 2 Th 2:13, 1Pe 1:2).

I'll say it again: once we fell in Adam, we lost our rights. At that point God was therefore at liberty to harden any of us to any of His purposes, even to function as a Judas or a Pontius Pilate, predetermining as He wills. This is not necessarily the same as "all things predetermined in every last detail from eternity."

And I will remind you again that you have provided no Biblical source for your assertion of these "rights."

 

[zoidar]

"Known for ages" implies God knowing from the beginning, or according to Scripture, from before the foundations of the world, what he will do (i.e., divine foreknowledge) because, from before the foundations of the world, he has decreed that he shall do it.

Without checking any verses a guess of mine is that "known" refers to what God will do and "foreknown" what man will do.