Thanks for the reply Mark - now you're
really trying to break my brain! Indeed I previously had some early pondering into the "interface" between our temporal existence and the seemingly atemporal New Earth (e.g. are we already there and here simultaneously? Or does time just end at when we arrive? Will my beagle be there with me? Will he complete his commentaries?).
If convenient, I'd be interested in a suggested verse or two (above you pointed to some places in Scripture "even more than hinted at").
Appreciated as always, BM
I'll admit that some of the things that set me on this trajectory are not directly Biblical, as such, one of which is the obvious implication raised by the logical notion that God is not subject to time. I admit to the fact that thinking of this separately as a necessary fact, even if not completely understood, crossed over to suggest there is a reason for the curious language constructions that Biblical prophecies sometimes use.
From our necessarily temporal view, it is easy to say that, in a manner of thinking, we could 'right now' actually be 'up there' watching all this unfold as context for judgement upon every idle word, etc. In fact, some have gone way past this, to claim that we were once up there, and put down here, to later return up there. Now there's not much they have to back that up scripturally, but I think I have more.
I'm going to have to leave it there as I'm way past time for bed tonight, getting up 3:30 for a trip. Don't let me forget to show Scripture that may apply.
Continuing my disclaimers --I can't teach this notion as fact-- it seems only logical to me, and Biblical, though not exactly drawn from Scripture, specially since God's 'mode of existence' is not something our brains are currently built to handle.
(The older I get the more I see that
our conceptions of what God has said, are, (similar to how we use language to poorly convey thought), like handles or buckets to carry thoughts around in, and never quite full of understanding of the facts. This is particularly so when we consider God's person and being. I have no 'Christian indigestion' at the notion that God can 'talk down to us' and still be true. But, in fact, this is one of the mysteries I long to know more about, that the Word of God is perfect and true, yet he uses human language to do this. Anyhow, we can't help but use human language and concepts to think, and even this notion of God's timelessness is a humanly posited notion, and probably in some ways misleading to us. We will know more when we see him as he is!)
I have already referred to prophecies, particularly places such as in Revelation where the revelator says, as if in the past tense, "I saw", and makes many other such past-tense sounding statements, so I'll leave that as is, except, again as before to mention I am aware of the 'storytelling' method apparently employed --I can't immediately think of the literary term for that. But I think it could be both: one from a temporal point of view of something yet to happen, and the other from God's point of view, having 'already happened' (as we would describe it --past tense). Apparently, John and Daniel et al, saw it as God showed them, and could only describe it as past tense(?), I don't know...
Another category is where passages sound like, "already but not yet". I think I mentioned, the "slain from the foundation of the world" but wasn't slain (from our POV) until Calvary; and "chosen from the foundation of the world" but not yet all saved. Some will say that "now we know in part but then we will know completely" explains those, and there is something to that for many passages, but that still doesn't cover the curious language. Here's a few more:
Hebrews 2:
"7 '...You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor 8 and placed everything under his feet.' When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him." This one even comes right out and describes the principle! (And for anyone reading these, yes, I know there is a lot more to these passages than just the use I have made of them here).
Here's a curious one, and maybe it doesn't fit here, but: John 15:3
"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." And while I'm working on what may not fit: John 17:16
"They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world."
Ephesians 2:
"6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..."
Ephesians 1:
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ." (my emphasis)
And even John 3:16 and so many others like it, refer to God giving us
eternal life. We offhand translate that in our minds to something like, "Well, that is, eventually", or "Eternal, starting now", or "Well, it IS of an eternal nature, a new spiritual nature", but we may be missing something there --something that those who reject the security of God's having chosen us will probably dismiss outright, that even NOW we have it, yet don't see the consummation of it. This may also support the idea, which I DO teach for other reasons, that Regeneration and Salvific Faith are entirely the work of the Spirit of God in us.