The Messianic was the first congregation

[rockytopva]

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado? And... If you have a better interpretation please post your info! I dont mind for people to disagree with me and may end up learning a thing of two! I believe the churches came down as seven and each congregation is different in their generation!

I place the Messianic church as the first congregation and am amazed that it dissipated away with the Roman persecution. I value the Messianic and wish I would have met one personally. Noting, though, as a Gentile, I would of never completely have fit in. Please give some Messianic insight on this interpretation, noting, that I do not expect agreement, and that your interpretation would expectedly be different.

 

[rockytopva]

Also wondering if God has not wearied of Gentiles.. “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” - Matthew 21:24

 

[daq]

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado? And... If you have a better interpretation please post your info! I dont mind for people to disagree with me and may end up learning a thing of two! I believe the churches came down as seven and each congregation is different in their generation!

I place the Messianic church as the first congregation and am amazed that it dissipated away with the Roman persecution. I value the Messianic and wish I would have met one personally. Noting, though, as a Gentile, I would of never completely have fit in. Please give some Messianic insight on this interpretation, noting, that I do not expect agreement, and that your interpretation would expectedly be different.

Every word counts. For example, in your statement concerning Thyatria, you say:

"Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate."

So then, accordingly, the Son of Elohim is going to kill their children with death? And moreover he will do so in order that all the assemblies may know that it is he who searches the reins and hearts? (Revelation 2:23).

Asia is Tarshiysh, the body of the Malak described in Daniel 10:5-6, and everything else in the description of the Malak in Revelation 1 matches the description of the Malak in Daniel 10:5-6, (the word beryl in most English renderings of Dan. 10:6 is Tarshiysh, just as sure as Paul was from Tarsus).

 

[rockytopva]

Every word counts. For example, in your statement concerning Thyatria, you say:

"Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate."

So then, accordingly, the Son of Elohim is going to kill their children with death? And moreover he will do so in order that all the assemblies may know that it is he who searches the reins and hearts? (Revelation 2:23).

Asia is Tarshiysh, the body of the Malak described in Daniel 10:5-6, and everything else in the description of the Malak in Revelation 1 matches the description of the Malak in Daniel 10:5-6, (the word beryl in most English renderings of Dan. 10:6 is Tarshiysh, just as sure as Paul was from Tarsus).

I have thought that this is similar in trying to determine Paul’s thorn in the flesh. We can all come up with estimations, but… We are dealing with metaphors… In which whole books could be written on each metaphor.

 

[daq]

I have thought that this is similar to trying to determine Paul’s thorn in the flesh. We can all come up with estimations, but… We are dealing with metaphors… In which whole books could be written on each metaphor.

I do not recognize any estimations or speculations in what I said. Jezebel is a false prophetess spirit. This is obvious because when the Apocalypse was written Jezebel was already long since dead, (2 Kings 9:30-37).

How does one fornicate with a false prophetess spirit? and what kind of offspring would this sort of spiritual fornication produce? No doubt false doctrines, and therefore, the false doctrines are the evil offspring. Elohim does not physically kill his own beloved creation, (mankind). If indeed you wish to understand the Apocalypse this truth is absolutely critical to the entire understanding. The Spirit of the Prophecy is the Testimony of the Meshiah, (Revelation 19:10).

 

[Torah Keeper]

Messianic is indeed the original Christian Church. But as for the 7 Churches, I have looked into the 7 Church ages doctrine, but it doesn't work. I suggest you let it go.

A better doctrine is the 7 branches of the Church. Each branch corresponds to a different major denomination,  or branch of Christianity. This is close to what you present here, but not quite.
Each branch may have fulfilled certain of these prophecies at times. Additionally, each prophecy can have multiple fulfillments, in similar but different ways, at different times, such as Smyrna.

Smyrna had nothing at all to do with Paul.

The 7 churches were actual churches at the time John wrote Revelation. The bishop of Smyrna at that time was Polycarp. He was appointed by the last living apostle: John. The message to Smyrna contained no rebuke, but to be faithful unto death. After John died, Polycarp was called "the father of the Christians".

Sadly, Polycarp was martyred by being stabbed to death after he miraculously survived being burned alive in a public spectacle. His famous quote is "Away with the atheists!"

The church of Smyrna would later fulfill this prophecy of martyrdom again in World War 1, when the Muslim Ottomans killed so many Smyrnean Christians that the propellors of ships in the harbor were clogged by the hair from all the decapitated human heads.

Let us hope to be in the Church of Philadelphia. Notice that Philadelphia are at odds with false jews. The synagogue reference suggests that the Church of Philadelphia was composed of Jews. Some believed in Yeshua, while others did not. These false jews are the synagogue of satan. True Jews follow Yeshua HaMashiach.

 

[rockytopva]

Well… I gave it a try. I do, though, believe we are living in the Laodicean church age and the message is pertinent to the times. In choosing a church in this time I would want to get to know the Senior Pastor before putting any kind of weight in the movement.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Well… I gave it a try. I do, though, believe we are living in the Laodicean church age and the message is pertinent to the times. In choosing a church in this time I would want to get to know the Senior Pastor before putting any kind of weight in the movement.

I would say instead of a Laodicean "age", Laodicea is one branch of Christians. The type that are Christian in name only, not in word or deed.

If you are going with the Church age thing, what does Wesley have to do with false and true Jewish believers in Yeshua? Philadelphia is the best fit for Messianics. Some of us actually are dealing with what it means to be "Jewish" on a personal level. Ex: Being shunned by the local synagogue, shul, or Jewish community, or even family for the "heresy" of believing in "Jesus the God of the Christians".

I applied for aliyah to Israel but was denied because I am a Christian. It does not matter how frum I am or what my heritage is to them.

 

[Yusuphhai]

From the perspective of Messianic, the seven spirit of Menorah represent seven “Eyes” from God, searching all the world(Olam) across all space and time.

 

[rockytopva]

Everyone... Unique perspectives! And thank you for sharing. I will drive the hour to get to the Indian Valley Church of God tucked in the mountains of Virginia. The road there went from two lanes, unmarked road, to dirt road before getting there. It is amazing to find a very large church with well dressed people, smiley faces, warm hearts, and the Spirit I found in the church many decades ago. When going to prayer after the sermon the men will pray on the left side and the woman on the right. I asked the preacher when the people started doing this and his reply was somewhere in the middle east. Does anyone here know? In which, I don't know. So a lot I don't know and it is always nice to go to church and learn something new.

The link below is the Thanksgiving service I went to Sunday where the minister preached wonderfully from Psalms 103...

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4 Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
5 Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's. - Psalms 103

 

[rockytopva]

And... In the wrong time and geography... The congregations I like to follow would have been at the expense of my life!

 

[dani'el]

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
Angels - The current preacher to the congregation.

Not disagreeing with your analogy here, just curious about one thing. Since the scripture you quote says "seven stars are the angels of the seven churches" why do you break the two down as the underlined above?

Stars always represent people, yes; however the pastor/rabbi/leader would be a person. And clearly (to me anyhow) the scripture says the ἄγγελος aggelos (incorrectly seen as an "angel" in most of Christianity) is the leader in the ἐκκλησία ekklēsia (again incorrectly seen as a church in most of Christianity). These were Messianic assemblies, of the sect of the Nazarenes, as I think you are saying. My only question then is how you break out the stars as members of the congregation and messengers as the pastors?

If you have a better interpretation please post your info! I dont mind for people to disagree with me and may end up learning a thing of two! I believe the churches came down as seven and each congregation is different in their generation!

I totally agree that, even should we end up disagreeing we can learn from each others viewpoint.

I place the Messianic church as the first congregation and am amazed that it dissipated away with the Roman persecution. I value the Messianic and wish I would have met one personally. Noting, though, as a Gentile, I would of never completely have fit in. Please give some Messianic insight on this interpretation, noting, that I do not expect agreement, and that your interpretation would expectedly be different.

The early Messianic church, which was the sect of the Nazarenes actually lasted in the same form as in its' inception much, much later:

(Epiphanius, AD 370, Panarion 29) "But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians-but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do… They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law -- circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians...they are nothing but Jews… They have the Good News according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.”

• Note that at this time (just after the Council of Nicea), according to one of the major church fathers the (Jewish) sect of he Nazarenes was still very much, well, JEWISH! Nazarenes- the guys Paul was said to be a ringleader of!

Church father Jerome refers to Nazarenes as those “…who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.”

• This too confirms the existence of the Nazarene sect in the 4th cen AD.

Bonacursus, in “Against the Heretics” refers to “Nazarenes”, also called 'Pasagini': “Let those who are not yet acquainted with them, please note how perverse their belief and doctrine are. First, they teach that we should obey the Law of Moses according to the letter - the Sabbath, and circumcision, and the legal precepts still being in force. Furthermore, to increase their error, they condemn and reject all the Church Fathers, and the whole Roman Church."

• Bonacursus was a 12th-century Italian Cathar who converted to Catholicism.

Other church fathers also wrote of the sect of the Nazarenes. But here we have proof they existed as they always were over 1000 yrs. later. Somewhere I have a quote in the 16th cen., but am having trouble finding it. But the point is they lasted as they were in their beginning, in spite of persecution by both the church and the Jews long after the council of Nicea (mid 4th cen), which is when the "church" as we know it first started to form. One need only read accounts of that first council (the Council of Jerusalem in Acts was a council of Nazarene leaders, NOT a "church council"). But in the accounts of the 1st Council of Nicea we see not "a church," but many "churches," all teaching different doctrines and with no cohesion at all. They only had in common some attachment to the name of "Jesus." Furthermore that council was called not by any church leadership, but by Constantine; its' purpose to form some kind of cohesive bond between peoples of the lands he'd conquered. He saw religion as a vehicle to that end, and wanted to form one church under the banner of which he could unite them. It didn't work very well for him, but it was the start of the effort to unite all the churches into the long idealized "catholic (small "c"), or "universal" church.

So read the book of Acts, and replace the term "church" with the word "assembly," which is what even Christinan references say the term means:

G1577 ἐκκλησία ekklēsia; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

Strong's follows the catholic model, so it does include the term "church" in the definition. But it also clearly says this can mean an "assembly." And the latter is how any true translation should read. Your Messianic fellowship did not die out early, nor was it ever replaced by the church. We do not know when, or even if it was finally destroyed (probably by church persecution). But it lasted long enough for us to say the church did not magically appear in the 1st. cen. AD, and well past even the Roman Empire. Nor was the church the continuation of the line of Yeshua and the apostles. That fell to the sect of the Nazarenes, those pesky early Messianics!

 

[rockytopva]

That fell to the sect of the Nazarenes, those pesky early Messianics!

Feel free to disagree!

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. - Romans 11

But... My feelings were the analogy of the seven congregations of Revelation was to show that the Gentile churches were churches of many issues! And if I may present a view of my own...

1. Sardis - Did not believe in backsliding
2. Philadalphia - Practiced it!

Which is very annoying as I have to drive an hour to get to the Indian Valley Church of God (video posted in this thread) to get the feeling of the Spirit I felt so many decades ago.

 

[dani'el]

Feel free to disagree!

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. - Romans 11

Oh, I agree it is entirely possible God preserved a remnant of the Nazarene sect even to this day. I just do not know of them- who or where they are, nor any evidence they still exist.

But... My feelings were the analogy of the seven congregations of Revelation was to show that the Gentile churches were churches of many issues! And if I may present a view of my own...

1. Sardis - Did not believe in backsliding
2. Philadalphia - Practiced it!

Replace the "churches" with "assemblies" or "synagogues" and I'd agree. In those days as in all of Judaism salvation was by grace through faith. However it was typically attained by joining the sect of the Nazarenes. You left all old attachments behind and worshiped the God of Israel alone, and you believed Yeshua was God. There were no churches as we think of or know them; no universal church or even a loosely cohesive Christianity. So the term "church" is an intentional misnomer, meant to subtly imply the catholic/universal church just sprang into being at Pentecost. It did not.

Which is very annoying as I have to drive an hour to get to the Indian Valley Church of God (video posted in this thread) to get the feeling of the Spirit I felt so many decades ago.

Understand your annoyance. I've had to travel for fellowship since I started to walk the Messianic path. But it is worth it.

 

[Lulav]

I wonder if anyone reading the beginning of the Revelation and about the seven congregations ever contemplated which was the Shamash?

Would it be this one as it is placed in the middle?

Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.

 

[rockytopva]

I wonder if anyone reading the beginning of the Revelation and about the seven congregations ever contemplated which was the Shamash?

Would it be this one as it is placed in the middle?

Please know I value your input. Please also elaborate a little more from this viewpoint. What do you consider Shamash?

 

[rockytopva]

The history of the church! The history of the church! Here in 2022 we can look back and see the virtues and the errors. I value the Messianics as a smarter bunch and desire your input here. And also valuing the intelligence and thoughts of Albert Einstein...

If I were given a way to survive the environment on Mars I could do very little with the iron-based compositions save make sandcastles. My options are two....

1. Chemically - Find a way to chemically react with the environment to produce elements.
2. Nuclear Reactions - Turn the mass to plasma and reform it into another form of mass...

And how would I do that nuclearly? Well, if E = MC2 I can divide and conclude that mass can turn into plasma and plasma back into mass...

M <--- E / C2 = Fusion (energy to mass)

Energy and light are released as the matter is bonded and produces the most intense energy as seen in the Hydrogen Bomb. As of yet we have not figured out how to make fusion useful for the generation of our energy needs.

M ---> E / C2 = Fission (mass to energy)

Energy and light are released as the matter is split. The released energy is not as great as the fusion process. I believe all mass was once a great piece of matter floating in space until God spoke these words… Let there be light! At that point the mass turned to energy and light, expanding out from a point of origin and then re-freezing into what elements the Father willed it. Are we experiments from the eternal mind? If so, we will return to him to give an account on how we lived our life here on earth.

M + M ---> E / C2 = Reaction producing energy and light

Energy and light are released as matter reacts one with another. Fossil fuels reacting with oxygen can produce a great deal of energy. But not nearly as great as the fission process. By products to this reaction include CO2 gas, which is harmful to the environment. The Martian atmosphere is 95% CO2 carbon dioxide. But if we can’t figure out to easily strip the C from CO2 on earth how could I do it on Mars? But… Our plant life does this quite easily in a process called photosynthesis. If we had the temperature to do so we would have to deveiop plant life first to strip the C from the CO2.

I am amazed how the light and energy came together here on planet earth to form mass, intelligence, and spirituality. And as a human being having 60,000 miles of blood vessels turning O2 back into CO2 and releasing energy in the process to sense, see, hear, in constructive employment, etc. I can’t believe that all of this happened without an intelligent designer behind it. I could do very little with such mass on another planet save make sandcastles.

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." -Albert Einstein

And also noting there are spiritual aspects as well...

Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

In which I have also marvelled how the spiritual dissipates from a church under the same mental doctrine.

 

[rockytopva]

I wonder if anyone reading the beginning of the Revelation and about the seven congregations ever contemplated which was the Shamash?

Would it be this one as it is placed in the middle?

The Thyatirean age.... Also noting the control, domination, and the spirit of Jezebel of the Mongolian Empire.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Oh, I agree it is entirely possible God preserved a remnant of the Nazarene sect even to this day. I just do not know of them- who or where they are, nor any evidence they still exist.

A significant portion of Jewish converts to Christianity continued to keep Jewish traditions. This is because Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism. This is widely discussed in Church history. We have a sticky thread on it in the Messianic forum.

 

[Lulav]

Please know I value your input. Please also elaborate a little more from this viewpoint. What do you consider Shamash?

There are seven branches to a menorah. There is the stem rising up in the middle with three branches to each side of it. The one in the middle is called the Shamash. It has been compared to the creation week, and this middle branch is seen as the fourth day with its six curved branches representing the six days of creation while the center seventh branch stands for the seventh day, Shabbat.

It has also been assigned to God as well as Yeshua.