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Missing pages from one's bible

Fervent

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In my opinion it comes down to criteria. The reason why Enoch and several other books and epistles aren't included in the compotation called the Bible in the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches, is because they simply didn't meet established criteria to be considered canon. But they're still in existence and anyone is free to read them. Especially now when all of it is so easily available on the internet. There are a lot of Christians who don't believe that Revelation is canon, and the Eastern Orthodox church doesn't use it in their liturgy. I've heard that Esther barely made it into the canon for all Christian churches, simply because it barely meets the criteria for what is deemed to qualify as canon.
This is somewhat accurate, somewhat inaccurate. The process of canonization wasn't a matter of curation where committees gathered with a checklist of criteria to weigh the books against, but instead was a largely organic process where select books came to be used within the liturgy. While we can look and see that the books that ultimately meet reasonable criteria, and there were occasional debates over what to include and that included some establishment of criteria it wasn't exactly a deliberate curation. That we can see criteria that arose from the canonization process is a testament to the Holy Spirit's involvement, rather than intentional curation.
 
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Servus

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I have a New Cambridge Paragraph Bible, which is a King James Version with all of the canonical books included (73 of them), but with seven of them and parts of two more in a kind of intertestamental appendix, as is the custom with the KJV. And I have numerous Catholic bibles with 73 canonical books. And I have some Protestant versions with only 66 books in them which means about 288 to 300 pages are missing from the 66 book versions. What do you good people do when you think about the missing pages? Does it bother you or are you happy as happy can be to have around 300 pages missing from your bible?
I've had pocket Bibles that only contain the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs. Should I be either bothered or happy as can be that they have so many pages missing from them?

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Servus

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This is somewhat accurate, somewhat inaccurate. The process of canonization wasn't a matter of curation where committees gathered with a checklist of criteria to weigh the books against, but instead was a largely organic process where select books came to be used within the liturgy. While we can look and see that the books that ultimately meet reasonable criteria, and there were occasional debates over what to include and that included some establishment of criteria it wasn't exactly a deliberate curation. That we can see criteria that arose from the canonization process is a testament to the Holy Spirit's involvement, rather than intentional curation.
I was thinking more along the course of Bible editions that have been printed after Catholic canon law was established up to present day.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I've had pocket Bibles that only contain the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs. Should I be either bothered or happy as can be that they have so many pages missing from them?

2XLFBCG.png
If it were your only bible and was treated as if it were the complete collection of inspired works then yes, you ought to be bothered. But that isn't how you see it, is it? :)
 
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Servus

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If it were your only bible and was treated as if it were the complete collection of inspired works then yes, you ought to be bothered. But that isn't how you see it, is it? :)
What do you mean by only bible? There's never been a time that I was limited to only one bible. Or anytime that I couldn't get any bible I wanted. These days via my laptop and phone I have a whole library of bibles available to me. Also I don't know of a place where having bible with 73 books is prohibited or where they're banned.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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What do you mean by only bible?
I had hoped that "only bible" would be read as "the only kind of bible that my denomination/religion regarded as valid, or that it was the only bible that you personally regarded as valid.

Of course, if you regard a 73-book bible as containing nothing but inspired holy scripture, fully canonical and "useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living, so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed" then we're on the same page and you can apply for membership in the Catholic Church as soon as you finish Catechesis :)
 
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Servus

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I had hoped that "only bible" would be read as "the only kind of bible that my denomination/religion regarded as valid, or that it was the only bible that you personally regarded as valid.

Of course, if you regard a 73-book bible as containing nothing but inspired holy scripture, fully canonical and "useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living, so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed" then we're on the same page and you can apply for membership in the Catholic Church as soon as you finish Catechesis :)
My denomination/religion is Christian. My membership is in the Body of Christ.

I like what you said about what scripture one personally considers valid or not.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I like what you said about what scripture one personally considers valid or not.
That was the one part that I hoped you would dislike most. My reason for that hope is this:
the canon of holy scripture is a matter for the body of Christ rather than for individuals to decide for themselves. We receive the holy scriptures from those who preserved it for us and they received the holy scriptures from those who composed the collection and they received holy scripture from those who were inspired to write the scriptures and they received holy scripture from the Lord, Jesus Christ who taught those who later became the sources of the stories we have in the holy scriptures, men and women who saw Jesus, talked with Jesus, followed him and served him even to the point of death. The scriptures are a product of the Church, an enterprise of the Church, an heirloom and a constant source of encouragement for the Church.​
 
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The Liturgist

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In 397 AD a council in Carthage ratified a canon of 73 books as being the books read in the churches. A few years earlier a council in Hippo listed the same 73 books as canonical scripture. There were well attended (several hundred bishops) councils but they were nonetheless local/regional and not ecumenical. The East had its own business to attend to, problems with Arianism and a number of variant heresies occupied the attention of the bishops there.

Here is what Orthodoxy has to say on the canon, in summary form,

The Canon of Scripture

Jews & Protestants:
Old Testament Identical
Catholic & Orthodox add:
1) Tobit
2) Judith
3) Additions to Esther
4) 1 Maccabees
5) 2 Maccabees
6) Wisdom of Solomon
7) Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)
8) Baruch
9) Letter of Jeremiah
Prayer of Azariah
Additions to Daniel =
10) Susanna
11) Song of the Three Children
12) Bel and the Dragon
Orthodox only:
1) 1 Esdras
2) some claim - 2 Esdras
3) Prayer of Manasseh
4) Psalm 151
5) 3 Maccabees
6) 4 Maccabees (in appendix)
7) some claim - The Book of Odes
Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox:
New Testament = books identical.

Technically the Book of Odes is canonical, in that the Nine Odes are nine canticles, including two evangelical canticles from Luke, Benedicite Omni Opera, and so on, all of which are found in Scripture. Of course, they are taken from the Septuagint editions, and some people regard Benedicite Omni Opera as apocryphal despite its immense beauty and immediate relevance to the Daniel narrative.

That said, the idea of a Book of Odes is technically redundant, since they are already in Scripture, but for ease of use, some Greek Bibles have it. The way the Canon, the principle hymn at Orthodox Matins and several other services work, is that based on each of the canticles of the Odes, a new ode is written that combines the thematic content of that Ode with the theme of the feast being observed. So having the Book of Odes provides a convenient place to reference the original nine canticles as they appear in Scripture, as opposed to the Odes based on them, which are numbered the same way. But it is not a distinct book of Scripture by any means, rather being a collection of some of the canticles.

Likewise, the Coptic liturgy has a similar system of Odes and Canticles, but the original Canticles their Odes are based on are four in number and include some of the Psalms.

The Syriac Orthodox (and presumably the Maronites*) also really like the format of the canon, and in addition to having translated many of the Greek canons and incorporated them into their liturgy, also wrote a number of Qanones (as the word is spelt in Syriac Aramaic) of their own.

*at least before their liturgy was devastated post-Vatican II, being one of three liturgies, along with the Roman and Ambrosian rites, which was modified in a way that greatly exceeded what the Council had actually called for, by Msgr Annibale Bugnini, and others inspired by him, not limited to the Catholic church, for the hugely problematic Revised Common Lectionary has become predominant among Protestant churches; Year D,** proposed by a Professor Slemmons of a Presbyterian university, would fix it by restoring much of the missing content that is included in the Anglican and other one year lectionaries it replaced, while also adding a year focused on the Gospel of John, but few churches have taken this up, and in another sense it compounds the problem by stretching it out to four years. But the real solution is to redo the Roman, Ambrosian and Maronite liturgies so that they have one year lectionaries and conform to the actual instructions of Vatican II, as opposed to the ideas of Bugnini and company, and also for Pope Francis to rescind what I regard as an arbitrary and unpleasant revocation of Pope Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum. I probably would have joined the Roman Catholic Church if Pope Francis hadn’t done that, and also had refrained from abolishing the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.

**Partially in jest, as a fun thought experiment, I am working on a Year E based on the Synoptic verses of the Gospel of Thomas and the Passion and Resurrection narrative of the Gospel of Peter, and other NT apocrypha which is either not heretical or which has obvious heterodox interpolations which can be excised. I have an interest in releasing an orthodox-compatible recension of the NT apocrypha, so that those apocryphons which contain material that could lead Christians astray but are not dominated by it and may have had legitimate origins, as well as those which are in no respect heterodox, such as the Protoevangelion of James and the Shepherd of Hermas, can be presented, to divert Christians away from the heretical material, and Year E arranges this material.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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@The Liturgist
I kind of dislike this "pilgrim hat" that we're all forced to wear. It represents a religious outlook with which I have almost no commonality, though the word "pilgrim" has a good pedigree and I have no objection to it. I'd prefer to have a nice Papal crown or Bishop's Mitre for the day :)
 
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The Liturgist

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I've had pocket Bibles that only contain the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs. Should I be either bothered or happy as can be that they have so many pages missing from them?

2XLFBCG.png

These obviously serve a special purpose, and it is also true that the Gospels are the most important part of Scripture, and the Orthodox Church regards certain books including Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the other writings of Solomon, Wisdom, Sirach, Genesis, the first half of Exodus, and especially Isaiah and the Psalms, among others, as more important than, for example, Numbers or 2 Kingdoms or Amos.

I have a particularly lovely New Testament, Psalter and Proverbs which also contains a beautiful set of prayers in my liturgical library, which was issued to a soldier during a war. I frequently use it as the Gospel Book on my altar due to its heritage, and I also like to use it to say grace. I believe it was issued by the American Bible Society, whose work, along with Gideons, I strongly support.
 
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Erose

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I don't "reject the Christian Bible." I hold a silent opinion on the Deuterocanon, neither affirming them as Scripture nor denying them as such, because they are not universally attested to either in the manuscript record of the Septuagint, nor in the early compilers, nor in the history of the church prior to Trent. I find them useful for establishing historical context, but see little unique contribution from them to the larger narrative of the Bible. As I see it, the drama of Israel necessary for the advent is complete when it is clear that the temple is no longer the dwelling place of God in Ezra and Nehemiah.

So the only thing of relevance I reject is the authority of the Roman institution, including the declaration at Trent. The canon does not derive its authority from the declaration of men, what limited authority men possess comes from the canon and their fidelity to it.
Okay got it. You reject them because the Jews did, since in the East and West they were accepted by the far majority of Christians except those who were isolated from main Church (Ethiopians) or fell out of communion before it was settled. (Churches of the East and Jacobites).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay got it. You reject them because the Jews did, since in the East and West they were accepted by the far majority of Christians except those who were isolated from main Church (Ethiopians) or fell out of communion before it was settled. (Churches of the East and Jacobites).

The churches of the East fell out of communion? You mean pope Leo fell out of communion and nobody else supported him. The excommunication was unanimously one sided. All of the patriarchs rejected Leo’s claim to papal supremacy and adopted the name Orthodox.
 
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Servus

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That was the one part that I hoped you would dislike most. My reason for that hope is this:
the canon of holy scripture is a matter for the body of Christ rather than for individuals to decide for themselves. We receive the holy scriptures from those who preserved it for us and they received the holy scriptures from those who composed the collection and they received holy scripture from those who were inspired to write the scriptures and they received holy scripture from the Lord, Jesus Christ who taught those who later became the sources of the stories we have in the holy scriptures, men and women who saw Jesus, talked with Jesus, followed him and served him even to the point of death. The scriptures are a product of the Church, an enterprise of the Church, an heirloom and a constant source of encouragement for the Church.​
I'm usually a proponent of the majority view. When I used to argue with sabbitarians I'd point out how 99% of Christianity for two thousand years disagrees with them. I've said the same to the individuals who think they have a special unique understanding of scripture, that gives them ideas that aren't held within the vast majority of the body. However, I also think it's up to the individual to examine and make choices. Although the more of the body that agrees with that choice the better. Despite the many differences of opinion that exist on CF, we all at least have to agree with the Nicene Creed, to be allowed to post in the Christians Only section. And there's certainly conflicting views even among Catholics. Even the Popes have had conflicting views. I've heard many Catholics disagree with some of what Pope Francis has said.
 
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Servus

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Okay got it. You reject them because the Jews did, since in the East and West they were accepted by the far majority of Christians except those who were isolated from main Church (Ethiopians) or fell out of communion before it was settled. (Churches of the East and Jacobites).
Okay now please explain why you think the Jews omitted those seven books from the Hebrew Bible. It'll be enlightening to see exactly what you believe Fervent's reasons are, since you say they're one in the same.
 
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@The Liturgist
I kind of dislike this "pilgrim hat" that we're all forced to wear. It represents a religious outlook with which I have almost no commonality, though the word "pilgrim" has a good pedigree and I have no objection to it. I'd prefer to have a nice Papal crown or Bishop's Mitre for the day :)
Wait until you get a Santa hat next month.
 
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Servus

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These obviously serve a special purpose, and it is also true that the Gospels are the most important part of Scripture, and the Orthodox Church regards certain books including Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the other writings of Solomon, Wisdom, Sirach, Genesis, the first half of Exodus, and especially Isaiah and the Psalms, among others, as more important than, for example, Numbers or 2 Kingdoms or Amos.

I have a particularly lovely New Testament, Psalter and Proverbs which also contains a beautiful set of prayers in my liturgical library, which was issued to a soldier during a war. I frequently use it as the Gospel Book on my altar due to its heritage, and I also like to use it to say grace. I believe it was issued by the American Bible Society, whose work, along with Gideons, I strongly support.
I had a really cool one someone gave me that was issued to WWII troops. It had copy of a letter signed by FDR.

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Fervent

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That was the one part that I hoped you would dislike most. My reason for that hope is this:
the canon of holy scripture is a matter for the body of Christ rather than for individuals to decide for themselves. We receive the holy scriptures from those who preserved it for us and they received the holy scriptures from those who composed the collection and they received holy scripture from those who were inspired to write the scriptures and they received holy scripture from the Lord, Jesus Christ who taught those who later became the sources of the stories we have in the holy scriptures, men and women who saw Jesus, talked with Jesus, followed him and served him even to the point of death. The scriptures are a product of the Church, an enterprise of the Church, an heirloom and a constant source of encouragement for the Church.​
And this is ultimately the point of departure, because your position holds that the Church is ostensibly the Roman institution, whereas Protestant ecclesiology views the visible institutions as a corpus mixtum. So while it is a question for the body at large, the individual must sift the happenings over history to come to their own conclusions regarding such decisions. Your position fails to recognize that the canon is where the church's power is derived from, instead you have the authority of the canon coming from the clergy.
 
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The Liturgist

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The churches of the East fell out of communion? You mean pope Leo fell out of communion and nobody else supported him. The excommunication was unanimously one sided. All of the patriarchs rejected Leo’s claim to papal supremacy and adopted the name Orthodox.

I believe he is talking about the Assyrian Church of the East and the Oriental Orthodox (by the way, @Erose, Jacobite is considered a derogatory term like Uniate unless one is specifically talking about Syriac Orthodox in India who are under the Maphrian, who is basically the vice-Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch.

It should be stressed that the Roman Catholic Church has cultivated extremely good relations with the Assyrian Church of the East and most of the Oriental Orthodox churches, with the possible exceptions of the Eritrean church due to the political crisis, and some conservative Ethiopian monasteries who take a hardline view that Chalcedonianism is synonymous with Nestorianism, which of course it isn’t (despite Nestorius claiming it was in the Bazaar of Heraclides, which is an obvious like and one reason why I really don’t understand why the Assyrians still venerate him despite having moved away from his Christology).
 
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Fervent

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Okay got it. You reject them because the Jews did, since in the East and West they were accepted by the far majority of Christians except those who were isolated from main Church (Ethiopians) or fell out of communion before it was settled. (Churches of the East and Jacobites).
It's almost like you didn't read what I said at all, since if you had you would have read that I don't reject them, I hold a silent opinion on them. The only thing I reject is the authority of the Roman church(or any other clergy) over Scripture, which necessarily changes how the canon is established.
 
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