How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Clare73]

But what good does it do for man to learn anything about obedience if God’s just going to change him from disobedient to obedient anyway,

That's a question for God, not me.
(Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:24)

without regard to man's choice

Who is denying choice?
Man freely and willingly chooses to believe, trust and obey Jesus.

"When you walk with the Lord
In the light of his word,
What a glory he sheds on our way.

When you do his good will,
He abides with us still
And with all who will trust and obey.

Trust and obey
For there's no other way
To be happy in Jesus,
but to trust and obey."

 

[WintersDust]

"We" who?

Those of us whom God chooses to save, or everyone, or who?

I'm not a Calvinist. However, in my reading of God's word in context of the entire narrative, I think the term elect means something. And that does not imply all.

Jesus taught in parables for the same reason. Not everyone was meant to understand and be saved.
The reason we need to be saved in the first place was due to God's plan. It stands to reason it is all in God's control from beginning to end.

The Lamb's Book of Eternal Life contains the names of all whom God elected unto his Salvation and before the foundation of the world where Salvation would become a thing.

I don't see that as Calvinism. I read that as Bible that predated Calvin's doctrine and even similar doctrines to that well before him.

 

[WintersDust]

God ordained and decreed it that way. . .it will be done.

I agree.

''...thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.''

 

[John Mullally]

But what good does it do for man to learn anything about obedience if God’s just going to change him from disobedient to obedient anyway, without regard to man’s choice?

The attractriveness of this docctrine is that outside of arguing against it from scripture, it is not falsifiable. Everythng that happens is according to what God decreed beforehand.

The lesson to be learned is that man cannot obey, unless united to/in fellowship with God, the source of obedience, righteousness.

I agree with this as man is a sentient being that may choose to or choose not to cooperate with God when He draws Him. God will not do for man what He commands men to do.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Good post. . .

Unless it is to teach man that he cannot obey well enough to count, no matter how hard he tries (Romans 3:20), so that his only hope is in faith in Jesus Christ and his obedience, in particular, to the cross (Galatians 3:24).

Yes. Our only hope is in Christ Jesus and OUR obedience.
Do you think you could not obey God and still see heaven?
Revelation 21:27
Nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it [heaven].

I posted John 14:15 and John 15:14 where Jesus tells us that IF we are His friends we will keep His commandments and IF we love Him we will keep His commandments.
Did you just gloss over that?

Jesus also said:
John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, IF anyone KEEPS MY WORD, he shall never die".

If Jesus gave us all these IF's, perhaps it's because He knew we could either keep His word or not, obey or not, love Him or not.

When Jesus said truly, truly, He meant to listen carefully.

Man's ability to obey as God requires is contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

Again, could you post some verses that actually support this inability?

See Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, John 3:3 regarding unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit.
Is not the curse of the Mosaic law in Deuteronomy 28 the curse of the Mosaic covenant (Deuteronomy 27:9)?

Romans 8:7-8 states that the sinful nature has always been hostile to God.
This is true. The sinful nature obeys satan, as is stated in Romans 8:5-6
It states that the sinful nature leads to death, those in the spirit and whose nature is controlled by the spirit and not by satan, think of things that please the spirit.
This states nothing about ability - only that we serve the one to whom we present ourselves.
Romans 6:16
16Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.

Note that we become the slave of whatever we CHOOSE to obey...
a slave to sin, or we can CHOOSE to obey God.

Having a choice always denotes free will.

The answer to the curses is NO.

For the reason stated in Romans 3:20: through the law we become conscious of sin.
For the reason stated in Galatians 3:24: to lead us to Christ that we might be justifed by faith (not law keeping).
For the reason stated in Romans 3:20: no one will be declared righteous by observing the law.

See NT teaching in Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:3 regarding the relation to the law and to pleasing God of the unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit.

I've said more than once that law-keeping will not save us.
I agree.
Why are you still debating this?

He came to fulfill it, which he did in obeying it perfectly, including being the fulfillment of the animal sacrificial system.

Yes, they are the obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19), for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

Again, I agree.

That means that those who believe in him (the regenerated) are enabled by God to do so (Philippians 2:13).
Apart from regeneration, there is no real heart obedience; i.e., submission. . .as distinct from compliance.

Again, where in the NT does it state that we are UNABLE to follow God's commands?
Philippians 2:13
God is working in us giving us the power to do what pleases Him.
Agreed.
We can do nothing on our own.
Jesus said He was going away so the Holy Spirit could come:
To teach
to comfort
to convict
to judge the world
John 16:7-8

Born again persons obey God.
The Holy Spirit was sent to us to help us.
All Christians believe this.

The unregenerate man without the Holy Spirit cannot (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:3).

Those who believe in Jesus are regenerated and enabled to obey (Philippians 2:13).

Actually, it is not about "free will," it is about ability (heart), which the unregenerate man does not have.
Only the regenerated have the enablement (Philippians 2:13) to heart obedience. . .as distinct from just compliance.

Well, I agree.
The person that is not born again has no desire to obey God.
Only born again person desire to obey God and are helped by the Holy Spirit to do so.

But nowhere in any of your verses do I read that we are UNABLE to follow God.
By we I mean, of course, born again believers.

Born again believers are truly free.
They can obey God,
or not obey God.

They have the free will to do either and are ABLE to do either.

 

[fhansen]

That's a question for God, not me.
(Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:24)

Who is denying choice?
Man freely and willingly chooses to believe, trust and obey Jesus.

"When you walk with the Lord
In the light of his word,
What a glory he sheds on our way.

When you do his good will,
He abides with us still
And with all who will trust and obey.

Trust and obey
For there's no other way
To be happy in Jesus,
but to trust and obey."

So would it be correct to say that you believe that anyone who obeys does so because they’ve received a disposition that ensures obedience while those who disobey do so because they’ve received a disposition that ensures disobedience? And that it would follow then that Adam was created with a disposition that ensured disobedience even though God commanded him not to disobey and then held Adam accountable for his disobedience anyway along with his descendants who were in any case created with dispositions that ensured disobedience and are subject to the consequence of eternal torment for their disobedience?

 

[Clare73]

Yes. Our only hope is in Christ Jesus and OUR obedience.
Do you think you could not obey God and still see heaven?

I could not be born again and not see heaven.
And if I am born again, I am enabled to obey God (Philippians 2:13),
am given a heart and will that desires and is enabled to do so.

Revelation 21:27
Nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it [heaven].

I posted John 14:15 and John 15:14 where Jesus tells us that IF we are His friends we will keep His commandments and IF we love Him we will keep His commandments.
Did you just gloss over that?

No. . .I noted the "if,". . .those who do not (love him), will not (keep his commandments).
Those who do (love him), are enabled to obey (keep his commandments). (Philippians 2:13).

Jesus also said:
John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, IF anyone KEEPS MY WORD, he shall never die".

If Jesus gave us all these IF's, perhaps it's because He knew we could either keep His word or not, obey or not, love Him or not.

Or could he know who would choose him or not, and only those who chose him would would keep his word, obey and love him?

When Jesus said truly, truly, He meant to listen carefully.
Again, could you post some verses that actually support this inability?

I'm repeating myself here. . .
Did you not check out the ones I presented regarding the unregenerate?

You can start with 1 Corinthians 2:14 regarding the unregenerate without the Holy Spirit:
They do not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they cannot understand them because they are foolishness to them, and they want no part of "foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:23-24).

Regarding the regenerate:
Romans 3:20 - No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law."
Galatians 3:10 - "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Deuteronomy 27:26)

Romans 8:7-8 states that the sinful nature has always been hostile to God.
This is true. The sinful nature obeys satan, as is stated in Romans 8:5-6
It states that the sinful nature leads to death, those in the spirit and whose nature is controlled by the spirit and not by satan, think of things that please the spirit.
This states nothing about ability - only that we serve the one to whom we present ourselves.

I'm repeating myself again. . .how are we missing each other here?

"The sinful (unregenerate) nature does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
The sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8)
See 1 Corinthians 2:14, above.

Romans 6:16
16Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
Note that we become the slave of whatever we CHOOSE to obey...
a slave to sin, or we can CHOOSE to obey God.
Having a choice always denotes free will.

Agreed. . .I do not deny man's ability to choose.
Man freely and willingly chooses God, and
man freely and willingly rejects God.
Why are we covering this again?

I deny that "free will" is the issue in obedience.
That is a notion of man, nowhere presented in Scripture.
I assert that the issue is the "heart" (disposition); i.e., does it prefer God/Jesus, or not.
That notion is not of man, it is presented in Scripture; e.g., John 3:3-5; 1 Corinthians 2:14

The unregenerate heart does not love Jesus and, therefore, does not choose to obey him.
The regenerate heart loves Jesus and, therefore, chooses to obey him, being enabled by God (not by self) to do so (Philippians 2:13).

The answer to the curses is NO.

The Mosaic Covenant at Sinai was renewed (Deuteronomy 29) after 40 years in the wilderness due to their rebellion against going into Canaan (Numbers 14).
That renewal came with blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience (Deuteronomy 27:9-26, Deuteronomy 28).

The curse I "underlined" was the "curse of the law" referred to in Galatians 3:10, which is the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26, attached to the Law at the renewal of the Mosaic covenant.
There were no curses attached to either of the Abrahamic covenants, of Genesis 15:9-21 or Genesis 17.

And to your point there: the covenants, and any other law, do not demonstrate that man has the ability to obey God's law as God requires of him.
Romans 3:20 makes clear that no one will be declared righteous by observing the law.
Galatians 3:10 makes clear that all who rely on observing the law are under a curse (the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26, above).

I've said more than once that law-keeping will not save us.
I agree.
Why are you still debating this?

That's what I am wondering. . .why are we repeating so much of what I have previously addressed?

Again, I agree.

Again, where in the NT does it state that we are UNABLE to follow God's commands?

The man without the Holy Spirit (unregenerate; set on the flesh, not on the Spirit) cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).
The man without the Holy Spirit (unregenerate; in the flesh, not the Spirit) cannot please God (Romans 8:8).

Philippians 2:13
God is working in us giving us the power to do what pleases Him.
Agreed.
We can do nothing on our own.
Jesus said He was going away so the Holy Spirit could come:
To teach
to comfort
to convict
to judge the world
John 16:7-8
Born again persons obey God.
The Holy Spirit was sent to us to help us.
All Christians believe this.
Well, I agree.
The person that is not born again has no desire to obey God.
Only born again person desire to obey God and are helped by the Holy Spirit to do so.

But nowhere in any of your verses do I read that we are UNABLE to follow God.
By we I mean, of course, born again believers.

Well, that explains our problem. . .I've been referring to unregenerate man, while you were referring to regenerate man.

Born again believers are truly free.
They can obey God,
or not obey God.
They have the free will to do either and are ABLE to do either.

Disobedience it is a failure of the flesh on their part, it is not what they really prefer in their spirit.

 

[Clare73]

So would it be correct to say that you believe that anyone who obeys does so because they’ve received a disposition that ensures obedience

"Ensures" and "enables" are not the same thing.

Those who obey from a converted heart have been regenerated.

while those who disobey do so because they’ve received a disposition that ensures disobedience?

We are all born with an unregenerate disposition, enemies of God (Romans 5:10)
and by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
and which is not changed until we are regenerated in the new birth (John 3:3-8).
The regenerate have hearts to obey.
The unregenerate do not.

And that it would follow then that Adam was created with a disposition that ensured disobedience

Adam had more options and less security than does regenerate man.
The regenerate man is in Christ, who keeps him, while Adam was not.

even though God commanded him not to disobey and then held Adam accountable for his disobedience anyway along with his descendants who were in any case created with dispositions that ensured disobedience and are subject to the consequence of eternal torment for their disobedience?

The gospel rescues us from a situation much more dire than that.

Those born of Adam are born condemned by Adam's guilt (Romans 5:18), which is Paul's argument in Romans 5:12-17, where all died between Adam and Moses as the penalty for sin, when no one sinned because there was no law (carrying the death penalty) to sin against.
All those between Adam and Moses were guilty, made sinners, (Romans 5:19) by Adam's sin imputed to all those born of Adam, who was a pattern (Romans 5:14) of Christ. . .whose righteousness is imputed to all those born of Christ (Romans 5:18-19).

 

[fhansen]

"Ensures" and "enables" are not the same thing.

Those who obey from a converted heart have been regenerated.

So the regenerate are enabled to be obedient but could still fail-because they're not ensured obedience?

For the record, Catholcism teaches that we cannot turn or move ourselves to God-grace must precede that. But once turned to Him, now united wth Him, He not only forgives us of sin/disobedience but empowers or enables us to overcome it as well. And we must overcome it, by His grace, living by the Spirit, to whatever extent He deems right and sufficient, or we won't be seeing Him in the next life. Rom 6:22-23, Rom 8:12-14

There's no absolute guarantee in that; we cannot predict our own perseverance, because the human will remains involved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Supremacy of free will is not the issue. The issue is whatever degree of freedom God gives me-and wants me to exercise. God, alone, possesses and offers the change; He offers Himself. We can say "no". That's not haphazard, that's God granting freedom to a portion of His creation: rational, sentient beings: men and angels, and, yes, allowing sin, chaos, disorder, injustice to reign as a result of the abuse of that freedom, for a time, for His purposes, to bring an even greater good out of it in the end as those who will, might repent and come out of their rebellion and into His light, forsaking the darkness and evil that inevitably results due to autonomy from Him. That's a good purpose. Ultimately, when all is consummated and fulfilled, as that part of creation who will come to Him has done so, good and evil will no longer be allowed to coexist.

Your logic posits a supremacy to freewill, supremacy over God's will. If, as you say, man can refuse an OFFERED change, then we are not talking about God's will, but, at best, God's wish. God commands, and that we can resist. God decrees, and we don't even know what he has decreed, nevermind to be able to resist it.

 

[fhansen]

Your logic posits a supremacy to freewill, supremacy over God's will. If, as you say, man can refuse an OFFERED change, then we are not talking about God's will, but, at best, God's wish. God commands, and that we can resist. God decrees, and we don't even know what he has decreed, nevermind to be able to resist it.

He knocks. We may open the door, or we may not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

He knocks. We may open the door, or we may not.

Pretty obviously, then, he isn't talking about regeneration there. Nor even salvation. He is talking about the fellowship that happens upon (i.e. as a result of) regeneration.

But you may as well understand another principle in this matter, or what will seem like another principle to you: The fact of total inability of man to be saved by his own decision is not only stated as fact, in and of itself, and implied by and inferred from, in many passages, and the simple logic of it is irrefutable, BUT the way of human thinking seems to find it necessary that the cause-effect relationship of not just physical events, but spiritual events, are something necessarily sequential in time. They are not. God, who invented time, does not limit the Spirit to time sequence.

To put it plainly, if one is to be saved, it is to be born again, and that, born by the Spirit, and that, by the mere grace of God, from which flows salvific faith, which is stated in Scripture specifically to not be of ourselves. Deal with it.

You have lately posted a long one to me beginning with the word, "Garbage", by which I can only suppose you to refer to my post you were responding to. You are welcome to defeat this post and any reasoning in it with such a witty and logically supported comment as you used there.

At this point, I see no reason to continue with you.

 

[fhansen]

Pretty obviously, then, he isn't talking about regeneration there. Nor even salvation. He is talking about the fellowship that happens upon (i.e. as a result of) regeneration.

Sure, obviously. But, no, He's talking about the union with Him that's the object of our faith and is realized by that faith.

The fact of total inability of man to be saved by his own decision is not only stated as fact

It's not wholly his own decision, unaided by grace. Again, it's a two way street, God leading, us following, rather than refusing to follow. Again, the contingent nature relating to our coming to Him to begin with, or remaining in Him afterwards, is stated throughout Scripture.

To put it plainly, if one is to be saved, it is to be born again, and that, born by the Spirit, and that, by the mere grace of God, from which flows salvific faith, which is stated in Scripture specifically to not be of ourselves. Deal with it.

No, not Scriptural. You're putting the cart ahead of the horse again. Deal with it.

You have lately posted a long one to me beginning with the word, "Garbage", by which I can only suppose you to refer to my post you were responding to. You are welcome to defeat this post and any reasoning in it with such a witty and logically supported comment as you used there.

You were stuck on this one word, "realize", belaboring some point, over and over, that didn't relate to anything said and I saw absolutely no reason to "deal with it". I do apologzie if I came off a bit caustic there, however.

 

[zoidar]

I could not be born again and not see heaven.
And if I am born again, I am enabled to obey God (Philippians 2:13),
am given a heart and will that desires and is enabled to do so.

I was born again 2010. I had a time in my life, for a year or so, I lived in sin. But sure I was enabled by the Holy Spirit to be obedient, but I wasn't. What does that mean? Being enabled doesn't mean you are obedient. That is a free will choice. Sometimes being obedient is very hard, and we have to sacrifice much, that is when it's easy to fall into a life of sin and disobedience.

 

[Clare73]

I was born again 2010. I had a time in my life, for a year or so, I lived in sin. But sure
I was enabled by the Holy Spirit to be obedient, but I wasn't. What does that mean? Being enabled doesn't mean you are obedient.

But you did become obedient. . .that is what it means.

That is a free will choice. Sometimes being obedient is very hard, and we have to sacrifice much, that is when it's easy to fall into a life of sin and disobedience.

 

[BBAS 64]

I was born again 2010. I had a time in my life, for a year or so, I lived in sin. But sure I was enabled by the Holy Spirit to be obedient, but I wasn't. What does that mean? Being enabled doesn't mean you are obedient. That is a free will choice. Sometimes being obedient is very hard, and we have to sacrifice much, that is when it's easy to fall into a life of sin and disobedience.

Good Day, Zoidar

The struggle of Sanctification is real is the fruit of Regeneration...

"I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my way and obey statues...."

In Him,

Bill

 

[Mark Quayle]

fhansen said: ↑
"But what good does it do for man to learn anything about obedience if God’s just going to change him from disobedient to obedient anyway, without regard to man's choice"

That's a question for God, not me.
(Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:24)

Who is denying choice?
Man freely and willingly chooses to believe, trust and obey Jesus.

"When you walk with the Lord
In the light of his word,
What a glory he sheds on our way.

When you do his good will,
He abides with us still
And with all who will trust and obey.

Trust and obey
For there's no other way
To be happy in Jesus,
but to trust and obey."

I'll field this one, though I'm not God: When God changes a person "without regard to their choice" as @fhansen put it— (he still insists we believe in robothood) —the fact God no more asks for our permission in regeneration than he did to give us natural birth, makes us no more robots than having natural birth makes us robots. Do we not have enough examples in Scripture where the redeemed and regenerated believers were not perfect in obedience, nevermind our own personal experience, to demonstrate we are not robots? We are not robots —not even nearly.

This has puzzled me from childhood, particularly when I began to see myself unable to consistently obey. How is our choice, prior to or even within regeneration, any basis for God to rest his salvation on? "Well he promised!", they answered me, and showed me Scriptures. I responded, (within myself), "Yes, but did I really accept him? Was I sincere enough? My lack of obedience says otherwise!"

The simple logical and Biblical fact of my complete inability in the face of God's complete ABILITY, puts me totally at God's mercy, which is where I belong —not as though I had gained any ground with him, raising my status to a better operational position from which to negotiate with him as a separate person, but as dependent on him for my every move: IN HIM.

 

[zoidar]

But you did become obedient. . .that is what it means.

Good Day, Zoidar

The struggle of Sanctification is real is the fruit of Regeneration...

"I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to walk in my way and obey statues...."

In Him,

Bill

I don't know how much I agree with you, but it's comforting nontheless.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I could not be born again and not see heaven.
And if I am born again, I am enabled to obey God (Philippians 2:13),
am given a heart and will that desires and is enabled to do so.

No. . .I noted the "if,". . .those who do not (love him), will not (keep his commandments).
Those who do (love him), are enabled to obey (keep his commandments). (Philippians 2:13).

Or could he know who would choose him or not, and only those who chose him would would keep his word, obey and love him?

When Jesus says IF, it means that it's left up to us to decide if we want to obey or not.
IF you go to the store means maybe you'll go and maybe you won't.

You can't change grammar to suit your needs.

I'm repeating myself here. . .
Did you not check out the ones I presented regarding the unregenerate?

You can start with 1 Corinthians 2:14 regarding the unregenerate without the Holy Spirit:
They do not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they cannot understand them because they are foolishness to them, and they want no part of "foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:23-24).

Of course the unregenerate don't obey God.
Why should they??

Regarding the regenerate

:
Romans 3:20 - No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law."
Galatians 3:10 - "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Deuteronomy 27:26)
I'm repeating myself again. . .how are we missing each other here?

"The sinful (unregenerate) nature does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
The sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8)
See 1 Corinthians 2:14, above.

Agreed. . .I do not deny man's ability to choose.
Man freely and willingly chooses God, and
man freely and willingly rejects God.
Why are we covering this again?

So, it sounds like we agree?

I deny that "free will" is the issue in obedience.

That is a notion of man, nowhere presented in Scripture.
I assert that the issue is the "heart" (disposition); i.e., does it prefer God/Jesus, or not.
That notion is not of man, it is presented in Scripture; e.g., John 3:3-5; 1 Corinthians 2:14

The unregenerate heart does not love Jesus and, therefore, does not choose to obey him.
The regenerate heart loves Jesus and, therefore, chooses to obey him, being enabled by God (not by self) to do so (Philippians 2:13).

I'm sorry Clare, I can't follow anymore.
I'm not sure what you're saying anymore and we might even agree.

The Mosaic Covenant at Sinai was renewed (Deuteronomy 29) after 40 years in the wilderness due to their rebellion against going into Canaan (Numbers 14).
That renewal came with blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience (Deuteronomy 27:9-26, Deuteronomy 28).

The curse I "underlined" was the "curse of the law" referred to in Galatians 3:10, which is the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26, attached to the Law at the renewal of the Mosaic covenant.
There were no curses attached to either of the Abrahamic covenants, of Genesis 15:9-21 or Genesis 17.

The Abrahamic Covenant was a unilateral covenant and carried with it no curses.
I agree that the Law is a curse, but that is not the curse in Deuteronomy...but this is off topic.

And to your point there:

the covenants, and any other law, do not demonstrate that man has the ability to obey God's law as God requires of him.
Romans 3:20 makes clear that no one will be declared righteous by observing the law.
Galatians 3:10 makes clear that all who rely on observing the law are under a curse (the curse of Deuteronomy 27:26, above).

Again, I agree.

That's what I am wondering. . .why are we repeating so much of what I have previously addressed?

The man without the Holy Spirit (unregenerate; set on the flesh, not on the Spirit) cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).
The man without the Holy Spirit (unregenerate; in the flesh, not the Spirit) cannot please God (Romans 8:8).
Well, that explains our problem. . .I've been referring to unregenerate man, while you were referring to regenerate man.

Disobedience it is a failure of the flesh on their part, it is not what they really prefer in their spirit.

Yes. I think we've been speaking past each other.
If so, sorry.

 

[Clare73]

When Jesus says IF, it means that it's left up to us to decide if we want to obey or not.
IF you go to the store means maybe you'll go and maybe you won't.

You can't change grammar to suit your needs.

"If" can also be a statement of fact.

If it is born with a long tail, it is not human.
If you don't love me, you won't keep my commandments.

Of course the unregenerate don't obey God.
Why should they??

So, it sounds like we agree?

Yes, we agree that unregenerate man cannot submit to God (Romans 8:7-8).

I'm sorry Clare, I can't follow anymore.
I'm not sure what you're saying anymore and we might even agree.

Okay, I'm speaking in the terms of Romans 8:7-8, and the inability of unregenerate man to obey, free will or not.
Our ability to obey is not based in whether we have free will or not. The will is not the issue.
Our ability to obey is based in whether we are regenerate or not. That is the issue.
"Free will" does not give unregenerate man the power to obey God (Romans 8:7-8).
Only the Holy Spirit in the regenerate man gives man the power to obey God.

So the issue between God and man is not "free will" or "no free will."
Nowhere in Scripture is "free will" presented as the issue.
What is presented in Scripture, as the issue in the ability to obey, is the heart, either unregenerate or regenerate.
Only the regenerate heart in the Holy Spirit is able to obey God.
Scripture does not present obedience as about free will or not,
it presents obedience as about a regenerate heart or not.

The Abrahamic Covenant was a unilateral covenant and carried with it no curses.

I agree that the Law is a curse, but that is not the curse in Deuteronomy...but this is off topic.

The law is not a curse in itself. The law is righteous and good.
A curse is attached to the law for disobedience of it.
And it was attached at the renewal of the law in Deuteronomy 27:26,
which is "the curse of the law" which Galatians 3:10 is quoting, from Deuteronomy 27:26.

Again, I agree.

Yes. I think we've been speaking past each other.
If so, sorry.

Yes, we were both talking about the heart, but I was referring to the unregenerate heart,
and you were referring to the regenerate heart.

So it seems we agree in all but two areas:

1) obedience is about a regenerate heart rather than about free will, and
2) the curse of the law in Galatians 3:10 is quoting Deuteronomy 27:26.

Thanks for being so kind and patient.