How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[GodsGrace101]

I agree with your definition of free will. I also don't care about philosophy.

I am not a Calvinist. I'm a Compatibilists.

Compatibilists believe that in their hearts men plan their course, but God establishes their steps.

We can't forget the last part of that verse and be biblical.

My question to you is - do you believe that God establishes the steps of men?

If by this you mean that God predestines everything, then I'd have to say No.

 

[Clare73]

Excuse me Clare.
We were discussing God's COVENANTS with man....
NOT whether or not we can obey as God requires.
You're trying to change the subject.

Actually, we were talking about free will. . .see post #1047.

You posited that because God requires obedience of us, we have the power/ability/free will to obey.

I showed that the NT states that no one will be made righteous by observing the law (Romans 3:20),
that all who rely on the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10),
because no one can obey it as God requires.

I am showing that it is not man's "free will" that enables him to obey God.
For man is not able to obey God as God requires:
"No one will be declared righteous by observing the law." (Romans 3:20)
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse." (Galatians 3:10)

I am showing that it is only regeneration that enables man to obey God. (Philippians 2:13)

My point is not about covenants.
The point I am making is about where the ability lies to obey God.
It does not lie in man's "free will," it lies only in man's regeneration (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:10).

Only those whom God enabled--who were true (in heart) Israelites, not necessarily all who descended from Jacob--were able to obey his commands.

It is the same in the NT.
Only the regenerate are enabled to obey God's commands (Philippians 2:13).

Again:
God made BILATERAL COVENANTS WITH MAN.
This means that GOD HAD A PART
and MAN HAD A PART.

There were blessings for obedience
and curses for disobedience.

IF God was offering both blessings AND curses,
it means that HE DID NOT do all the work...
man had a part.

Man could CHOOSE to obey or not obey.
Choice denotes free will.

This is the discussion at hand.




I'm not getting into the discussion of whether or not we can obey or not obey.
Both are possible AND REQUIRE FREE WILL.

I'm saying that God made an agreement with man,
and gave man THE CHOICE to obey or not obey.


And, HOW are we responsible if we are not able?
WHY would God ask us to do something He KNOWS we are unable to do?
This is a strange God indeed !



The issue is not what one prefers.
The issue is WHY does one prefer one option over another...

Because in all of Christianity, the individual person is free to make his own choice.

In reformed theology, God makes the choice for you.
He just makes you want what He wants, that's all.
Your choice is coerced by God.

 

[Clare73]

God wants everyone not only to be saved but to come to the knowledge of the truth. God is not playing both sides.

Doesn't address specific issue.

1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

 

[Clare73]

Oh, ok. From past observation I believe you "extrapolate" it pretty similar to myself...in this case anyway.

Oh. . .so you're talking about man choosing what he prefers. . .okay.

 

[Clare73]

כַּפֹּרֶת noun propitiatory, late technical word from כּפר cover over sin: the older explanation cover, lid has no justification in usage; ιλαστήριον; only P: Exodus 25:17, 18, 19, 20 (twice in verse); Exodus 25:21, 22; Exodus 26:34; Exodus 30:6; Exodus 31:7; Exodus 35:12; Exodus 37:6, 7, 8, 9 (twice in verse); Exodus 39:35; Exodus 40:20; Leviticus 16:2 (twice in verse); Leviticus 16:13, 14(twice in verse); Leviticus 16:15 (twice in verse); Numbers 7:89, and 1 Chronicles 28:11; it was a slab of gold 2 1/2 cubits x 1 1/2 cubits placed on top of the ark of the testimony. On it, and a part of it, were two golden cherubim facing each other, whose outstretched wings came together above and constituted the throne of Yahweh. When the high priest entered the Holy of Holies on the day of atonement it was necessary that this highest place of atonement should be enveloped in a cloud of incense. The blood of the sin-offering of the atonement was then sprinkled on the face of and seven times before it. The temple proper, as distinguished from porch etc., was called בֵּית הַכּ׳ 1 Chronicles 28:11.​

God has NEVER needed the blood of goats and bulls … it has ALWAYS been about FAITH. Typology and Shadows of the REALITY of Christ.

Lotta' dancin' around. . .no addressing the Scriptures I presented and the questions I asked regarding them, which Scriptures present penal substitutionary atonement.

Posts #1033, #1084, #1099 still remain unaddressed, causing this to go nowhere.

 

[John Caldwell]

If by this you mean that God predestines everything, then I'd have to say No.

I said that Compatibilists believe that men plan their course but God establishes their path.

I think we agree on the first part (that men have free will).

So it is the second part of Compatibilism you have issue with - that God establishes their path.

What do you believe it means?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Unless we read between the lines, practicing eisegesis IOW, these all pretty darn well speak of contingency, based on our free response/cooperation. We both believe that man cannot move himself to God; that requires grace. The difference is in whether or not grace is resistible. And I'd submit that, going all the way back to Adam, God would never have given him a command, requiring choice of action, and then, after making the wrong choice, patiently staying and working with man, unless He wants us to finally make the right choice, for Him, back to Him, first of all. Jesus opened up that avenue, that way, to reconciliation with the God who was spurned in Eden, and by that reunion we're found, healed, raised from the dead to newness of life.

The fact you extract non-contingency to what I say, does not mean I imply it. By now, no doubt you are familiar with people taking what you say to mean what you didn't mean. That is what you are doing now. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if you now take me to be backpedaling. The problem is, somehow, (apparently), you think our decision to be what God waits on to make his decisions. You would be wrong there.

Apparently, you haven't been listening. Nobody is saying grace is not resistable. What we are saying is that God no more asks for our permission to give us re-birth than he does for our first birth. Rebirth is not the result of co-operative effort. THAT grace of giving us the Spirit of God to live within us, is irresistable grace. The Holy Spirit doesn't try and try and try to move in until we let it. Now I don't disagree at all that the Holy Spirit works on us before regeneration, and does things to us, shows us things that we resist. I don't know of anybody who disagrees with that. But to claim that somehow, to allow the Spirit of God to do what it so badly wants to do but is unable until we allow it, to me is heresy. God does not need our help. Free will does not reign supreme.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Concerning God being unfair: Do you mean Calvin's claim that God predestines some to eternal hell before they are born? That tops my list of attributing God's nature to the satanic which is not OK (Matthew 3:22-30)! If Calvin experienced God's love, that should have been a clue to him that he was in error. But per scripture arrogance trumps reason.

And so human reasoning, per human notions of love, trumps Scripture?

 

[Mark Quayle]

man must walk in that foreign justice/righteousness in order to realize eternal life

There it is. Nicely vague, "'realize' eternal life". Exactly what does 'realize' mean, there? Does it mean, as the Bible teaches, that without works faith is dead? Or does it mean, one accomplishes eternal life by means of works? Don't slough the particulars here. It makes a difference.

 

[Clare73]

And so human reasoning, per human notions of love, trumps Scripture?

Ah-h-h-h-h. . . . .welcome back!

 

[atpollard]

I have asked you (post #1033) to exegete Romans 3:24-26, above, answering the questions I presented regarding it, which you have yet to do.

I answered one of the questions and you ignored it to repeat your OPINIONS and demands.

You claim that God’s wrath was transferred from me to Jesus to pay a debt so it is YOUR claim to prove and not MY CLAIM to explain to you. I tried to prove it and could not … the Bible says no such thing. Exegesis will not show what is not there.

At this point, we are not having a discussion and this has become pointless.

 

[fhansen]

There it is. Nicely vague, "'realize' eternal life". Exactly what does 'realize' mean, there? Does it mean, as the Bible teaches, that without works faith is dead? Or does it mean, one accomplishes eternal life by means of works? Don't slough the particulars here. It makes a difference.

You sure seem to be an offensive type...um, I mean on the offensive...or defensive, or whatever-too much of it in any case. Realize means realize, it's not vague.

Faith brings us into a state of justice: united with God. Righteousness is intrinsic to that relationship, authentic righteousness, the real thing finally, that which man was made for. "Apart from Me you can do nothing."-John 15:5. But we must remain in Him; that grace is still resistible; man can still walk away. And to sin persistently in obviously grevious and grave manner constitutes walking away from God.

Salvation can be looked at as boarding an ark, the “Ark of Salvation” it could be called. Once on board we join the rest of God’s family, as a new member. The cost of admission is faith. This faith is a gift, of grace; it’s God reaching down to us in the water to pull us up; we have no way to do this on our own, apart from Him. But we can say “no”; we can refuse to be saved. Grace is resistible.

But if we say “yes”, if we turn to Him and grab hold, acknowledging our need for Him, then He lifts us up, placing us on board. We are saved. But we can still always jump ship. We can turn back away from Him.

 

[fhansen]

The fact you extract non-contingency to what I say, does not mean I imply it. By now, no doubt you are familiar with people taking what you say to mean what you didn't mean. That is what you are doing now. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if you now take me to be backpedaling. The problem is, somehow, (apparently), you think our decision to be what God waits on to make his decisions. You would be wrong there.

Apparently, you haven't been listening. Nobody is saying grace is not resistable. What we are saying is that God no more asks for our permission to give us re-birth than he does for our first birth. Rebirth is not the result of co-operative effort. THAT grace of giving us the Spirit of God to live within us, is irresistable grace. The Holy Spirit doesn't try and try and try to move in until we let it. Now I don't disagree at all that the Holy Spirit works on us before regeneration, and does things to us, shows us things that we resist. I don't know of anybody who disagrees with that. But to claim that somehow, to allow the Spirit of God to do what it so badly wants to do but is unable until we allow it, to me is heresy. God does not need our help. Free will does not reign supreme.

Ok..so grace is resistible, except that it's not resistible. Ok.

And, yes, sorry, but God incorporates our foreknown choices into His plan, from the beginning.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok..so grace is resistible, except that it's not resistible. Ok.

And, yes, sorry, but God incorporates our foreknown choices into His plan, from the beginning.

You have a problem with God deciding which grace of his is resistible?

 

[fhansen]

You have a problem with God deciding which grace of his is resistible?

Um...no, you seem to maybe, in post #1107? All of His grace is resisitbile.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You sure seem to be an offensive type...um, I mean on the offensive...or defensive, or whatever-too much of it in any case. Realize means realize, it's not vague.

"Realize" is ambivalent. It can imply causation, or it can imply "we find out". Don't pretend otherwise. Yes, I am a rather on the offensive. I don't like God's plans being discredited. Our very lives are his to do with as he pleases. Our eternal destiny was decided before we were born. This does not negate the reponsibility of our choice. It only negates our being credited for our own salvation. THAT is GOD's doing, like I said, actually, from the foundation of the world. You want God to have made a pool of possibles, from which only those worthy ones who somehow choose him though dead in sin, and at enmity with him, were somehow able to do something on their own in the matter. Like you yourself quote below, "Apart from me, you can do nothing!" Is that an absolute statement, or not?

Faith brings us into a state of justice: united with God. Righteousness is intrinsic to that relationship, authentic righteousness, the real thing finally, that which man was made for. "Apart from Me you can do nothing."-John 15:5. But we must remain in Him; that grace is still resistible; man can still walk away. And to sin persistently in obviously grevious and grave manner constitutes walking away from God.

Salvation can be looked at as boarding an ark, the “Ark of Salvation” it could be called. Once on board we join the rest of God’s family, as a new member. The cost of admission is faith. This faith is a gift, of grace; it’s God reaching down to us in the water to pull us up; we have no way to do this on our own, apart from Him. But we can say “no”; we can refuse to be saved. Grace is resistible.

HOW in any possible scenario can anyone at enmity with God, unable to submit or to please God, dead in their sins, be able to somehow do anything to the contrary?

Of course we can refuse to be saved. And yes, God's incredible forebearance and even his —what is it you guys call it— "prevenient grace?" can be resisted. In fact, we can even try to resist his saving grace, but if he "installs" his Spirit within us, it is not by our permission. Our new birth is no more our choice than our first birth into flesh. Do we choose? —most certainly we do. But only when he has enabled us by "re-making" us. IN HIM.

Why must we insist on Self-Determination??

But if we say “yes”, if we turn to Him and grab hold, acknowledging our need for Him, then He lifts us up, placing us on board. We are saved. But we can still always jump ship. We can turn back away from Him.

He has already placed us on board. He made the ark. Did Noah build it? Of course! Why? Because GOD chose him. Did Noah climb on board? Of course. WHY?? HOW?? You want it to be part God and part Noah. Did Noah 'cooperate'? Or did Noah do what God did to him? If Noah had not, he would not have been saved. Agreed. But Noah DID —was that not predestined? Did not God do to Noah what God had planned all along? "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord". Does that mean that Noah did anything of himself, or does it mean that GOD had grace on Noah? Did Noah earn something???

Yes, Noah stepped up. WHY??? What was the difference between Noah and the rest of humanity? He himself, or God?

WHY? for crying out loud, would we jump ship?

Why must you insist on self-determination? It seems very odd to me.

Our choices are only valid by God's doing. We have no ability, apart from him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok..so grace is resistible, except that it's not resistible. Ok.

And, yes, sorry, but God incorporates our foreknown choices into His plan, from the beginning.

So, it is 100%, as someone (I say, carelessly) posted here, up to us? Incredible. 100% our choice, as though we were able —unable to choose God, unable to please him, unable to do anything apart from him— somehow able? Why must we insist on self-determination???

You have God choosing as a result of our choices. I don't deny the validity of our own choices. I deny the ability of our own choices to do anything valid, apart from God's enabling.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Um...no, you seem to maybe, in post #1107? All of His grace is resisitbile.

So God does ask our permission to change us outrageously different? You infer that, and THAT, according to your supremacy of free will. Just saying.

You seem to think that it is all haphazard, creation of the Bride of Christ by human will, of people of integrity, at enmity with Christ. Sorry. That's not what Scripture teaches.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Um...no, you seem to maybe, in post #1107? All of His grace is resisitbile.

Assertion. Scripture?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Assertion. Scripture?

There is plenty of scripture that shows a believer can lose their salvation. Here are a few:

2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Heb 3:12-14 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
​

Note the illustration in Hebrews 6, it speaks of us receiving nutrients from God, but if we bear weeds instead of good fruit, we will be cast off.

We all receive good direction from God, if we follow God's Word we will inherit life, if we follow our "weedy" desires death.