My Sandwich Challenge

[durangodawood]

Yep, but you have to vote before you can see the results. I did that on purpose.

Dont want early returns spoiling the last minute voting.

We're all on edge about which one will win!

 

[Kylie]

I created a apple butter sandwich. My sandwich is part of the Universe.


Question: In this act, did I create the Universe?

Did you create it ex nihilo? Then I would say no, you created a PART of the universe.

Did you rearrange existing materials to form the sandwich? Then, once again, no. You didn't create any part of the universe.

 

[HARK!]

you created a PART of the universe.

You didn't create any part of the universe

I'm getting mixed messages here.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm getting mixed messages here.

Her point is a good one.

If you created the sandwich ex nihilo, then you raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe according; in clear violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

But if you created the sandwich ex materia, then the level of mass/energy in the universe stays the same.

 

[sjastro]

Her point is a good one.

If you created the sandwich ex nihilo, then you raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe according; in clear violation of the laws of thermodynamics.

Wrong energy is not conserved in an expanding universe ("the laws of thermodynamics" are not violated).
Not that it would make sense to you but Noether's theorem for time invariance leading to the conservation of energy does not apply when the universe is expanding.

Here is a simplified explanation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wrong energy is not conserved in an expanding universe ("the laws of thermodynamics" are not violated).

Fine.

The laws of thermodynamics aren't violated.

But creating something ex nihilo raises the total amount of mass/energy in the universe -- however "briefly".

As opposed to creatio ex materia, which doesn't.

 

[sjastro]

Fine.

The laws of thermodynamics aren't violated.

But creating something ex nihilo raises the total amount of mass/energy in the universe -- however "briefly".

As opposed to creatio ex materia, which doesn't.

Wrong again.
There is no such thing as creating something ex nihilo as space-time can never be empty.
Spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wrong again.
There is no such thing as creating something ex nihilo as space-time can never be empty.
Spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty.

Then why did she say "most of space is near emptiness"?

 

[sjastro]

Then why did she say "most of space is near emptiness"?

Because she talking about things in space-time atoms, molecules, electrons, stars, galaxies etc.
Vacuum energy is a property of space-time itself.
Suppose you were able to remove all matter, every single atom, molecule, ion and electron from a volume of space-time.
You are not left with a perfect vacuum as vacuum energy still remains.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because she talking about things in space-time atoms, molecules, electrons, stars, galaxies etc.
Vacuum energy is a property of space-time itself.
Suppose you were able to remove all matter, every single atom, molecule, ion and electron from a volume of space-time.
You are not left with a perfect vacuum as vacuum energy still remains.

Are you implying that once God created the earth on Day One, which was the first physical object created in the universe, that He could no longer create anything else ex nihilo due to some theory about the universe expanding or something?

The universe was created static, then God stretched it out in an instant, and all that mass is now expanding outward to the very edge.

Like smoke expanding out in all directions.

 

[SelfSim]

Are you implying that once God created the earth on Day One, which was the first physical object created in the universe,

Not attempting to delve into your problematic version (which is up for you to figure out), but according to the NRSVU, the earth was already there, (it was complete chaos), and so was the deep, (it was covered in darkness), .. it had a face of waters. So there's three already existing objects right there .. right off the bat.

 

[sjastro]

Are you implying that once God created the earth on Day One, which was the first physical object created in the universe, that He could no longer create anything else ex nihilo due to some theory about the universe expanding or something?

The universe was created static, then God stretched it out in an instant, and all that mass is now expanding outward to the very edge.

Like smoke expanding out in all directions.

This is totally contradicted by observation.
Perhaps you are unaware we do not observe the distant universe as it is now but in its past when it was much smaller.
If stars and galaxies were created according to your narrative and then stretched out there would be no "Dark Age".

​

The CMB formed around 380,000 years after the Big Bang followed by the "Dark Age" as there were no stars or galaxies in existence to illuminate the universe that would be detectable as long wave microwave/far infrared by radio telescopes far more powerful than the JWST.

​

Stars and galaxies were formed around 100 million years later, the most distant galaxies are in the mid infrared range in the JWST range of detection.

 

[eleos1954]

Correct.

But as I said, He created Earth first, then the cosmos.

Earth = Day 1.

Stars = Day 4.

why do you think so? Time didn't exist until God created it .... and He created time
for specific purposes on earth. Time is related to earth and not the cosmos.

 

[AV1611VET]

why do you think so? Time didn't exist until God created it .... and He created time
for specific purposes on earth. Time is related to earth and not the cosmos.

If time is confusing to you, then just take away those passages that say, AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE [...] DAY.

You still have the proper order of things that came into existence, starting with the earth first, then the rest of the universe afterwards.

 

[eleos1954]

If time is confusing to you, then just take away those passages that say, AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE [...] DAY.

You still have the proper order of things that came into existence, starting with the earth first, then the rest of the universe afterwards.

I understand time as God created it ... and He created it for mankind. God dwells in eternity and eternity don't have a time element.

 

[Estrid]

why do you think so? Time didn't exist until God created it .... and He created time
for specific purposes on earth. Time is related to earth and not the cosmos.

Why do you think that.

 

[AV1611VET]

I understand time as God created it ... and He created it for mankind. God dwells in eternity and eternity don't have a time element.

I'm talking about the ORDER that God created the universe in.

Earth first ... then the rest of the universe ... raising the amount of mass/energy accordingly.

 

[Kylie]

I'm getting mixed messages here.

Okay, let me spell it out.

You created a NEW ARRANGEMENT of parts of the universe that already existed.

 

[SelfSim]

I'm talking about the ORDER that God created the universe in.

Except for the other orders created by other versions of the Bible.

Earth first ... then the rest of the universe ... raising the amount of mass/energy accordingly.

An opinion - yours.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not attempting to delve into your problematic version (which is up for you to figure out), but according to the NRSVU, the earth was already there, (it was complete chaos), and so was the deep, (it was covered in darkness), .. it had a face of waters. So there's three already existing objects right there .. right off the bat.

Gap theory?