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Missing pages from one's bible

Philip_B

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By God's will, now only Protestants have both a correct OT Canon and NT Canon.
This is a very difficult sentence to accept. It seems to rest on some sort of a priori epistemic primitive which has not been enunciated. Given that the next sentence is even more difficult.
That's the way how Protestants are authenticated.
The best I can make of this is that it is circumlocutious.

My view is that if the LXX was good enough for the writer of the 4th Gospel, then it is good enough for me to accept it as part of scripture. I would have trouble arguing that I know better than John the Evangelist (Indeed if I was to argue that I would regard myself as rather arrogant).
 
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The Liturgist

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Already explained. By God's will, now only Protestants have both a correct OT Canon and NT Canon. That's the way how Protestants are authenticated.

Well, right off the bat, this makes no sense because Lutherans have an open canon, as @MarkRohfrietsch can attest, and Anglicans and Episcopalians, and other Protestant denominations, have basically the same books in their Bibles as the Roman Catholics. The Authorized Version of the King James Bible includes the full 73 book canon, differing from the English translation of the Vulgate only in that the Psalter in the Challoner Douai Rheims is translated from the Septuagint, which I prefer as it has clearer Christological references. Unfortunately, due to a conspiracy between printers looking to save costs, and Non-Conformists and the Church of Scotland which rejected these books, since the late 18th century complete unabridged editions of the King James Bible have become quite hard to find.

Are you saying that only Catholics are legitimate?

If by Catholics, you mean Roman Catholics, then obviously not, since the Statement of Faith of Christian Forums admits any Christians who agree with the Nicene Creed and the apostolate of St. Paul and reject or agree not to discuss certain heresies like Gnosticism and KJVO. However the Nicene Creed requires us to confess a belief in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which Roman Catholics obviously interpret as meaning their church, whereas others interpret Catholicity on the basis of Apostolic Succession, such as the Anglicans and Old Catholics, and still others such as Lutherans interpret it on the basis of the qualities of the church, so Catholicity becomes synonymous with Lutheran Orthodoxy, which is why many Lutherans identify as Evangelical Catholics, while the Eastern Orthodox interpret Catholicity based on a combination of Orthodox belief and apostolic succession from Orthodox bishops, plus being in communion with the other legitimate Eastern Orthodox; the Eastern Orthodox also believe they are the true Roman Catholic church, since New Rome (Constantinople) was the seat of the Roman government, the persecuted Eastern Orthodox Christians of the former Ottoman Empire have always identified as Romans (Rumi in Arabic), and they are also Catholic for the reasons expressed above.

Some people substitute the word Universal for Catholic in the Creed, which is fine; the literal translation of the Greek word Catholic is “According to the Whole.” The other two ecclesiologies that are common are the Local Church ecclesiology, favored by Baptists and most Congregationalists, and many other evangelical churches with a congregational polity, in which each Local Church is the Church in its fullness, and the Invisible Church ecclesiology in which the Universal Church invisibly unites all Christians.

Of the churches I mentioned, I like a great many of them, and am an Eastern and Oriental Orthodox-leaning Congregationalist with strong Wesleyan influences, which makes me a Protestant at present.

However, the important takeaway is that Protestantism is not a unified entity, in that you have Waldensians, Moravians, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans and Methodists, and then the Radical Reformation churches such as the Anabaptists and Mennonites, the Non-Conformists such as the Congregationalists, Baptists, etc, and Restorationists such as Quakers, the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, the Adventists and others, and more recently the Pentecostals.

Additionally, not being a Protestant does not automatically make one a Roman Catholic. One could be Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Old Catholic, Russian Old Orthodox, Western Rite Orthodox, or Messianic Jewish. And these churches all use different canons, just as the Anglicans, Lutherans and early Calvinists use, or used, different canons. Indeed each of the four branches of Oriental Orthodox (Syriac/Indian, Coptic, Ethiopian/Eritrean and Armenian) has a different canon, and the Slavonic Eastern Orthodox churches use a different canon from the Greek and Eastern Mediterranean churches.

Or are you saying that the Jewish Canon is not legitimate?

There are at least two Jewish canons presently in use, that of the Rabinnical and Karaite Jews, and that of the Beta Israel, but neither is legitimate since they both lack the Gospels and other books of the New Testament. The same is also true of the Samaritan Canon.

Rather the controversy is always on whether the Apocrypha is legitimate!!!

On the contrary, very few people other than a handful of anti-Roman Catholic polemicists care about this, and this has not been the subject of serious debate for some time. Indeed with the deprecation of the 39 Articles of Religion in the Anglican churches of North America, the Apocrypha in the Episcopal Church and many of its more conservative successors are effectively protocanonical. For example, one of the two scripture lessons appointed for the feast of St. Luke the Evangelist in the Episcopal Church is the beautiful pericope “Honor a Physician” from Sirach.

Rather, of much greater controversy in antiquity, in the Reformation and even at present includes certain books in the New Testament. The canonical status of Revelation has always been controversial, and Martin Luther wanted to exclude it, along with the Epistles of Jude, James and Hebrews, from his German translation of the New Testament, however, because this was so controversial, he instead placed them at the end, and they are known as Luther’s Antilegomenna. Likewise, the Longer Ending of Mark, owing to its absence from the manuscripts of the Alexandrian text type, is currently the subject of controversy.

The Jews have the canonization all the times from King Hezekiah till Ezra till the Pharisees. Like I said, it is their testimony, it is their canonization. The only conflict lies in the apocryphal books.

The problem with that statement is that the Dead Sea Scrolls have validated both the Septuagint and the Ethiopian books, and the New Testament actually quotes from both. For example, Jude quotes from 1 Enoch.

Now, those Jewish manuscripts we have which predate the Crucifixion obviously have authority, because Second Temple Judaism was the Church, until the ministry of our Lord, at which time its authority transferred to Christianity, a process which began with the Crucifixion, and ended with the destruction of the Temple, at which time the Pharisees took over and a new form of Judaism, Rabinnical Judaism, emerged. The Beta Israel however do preserve something close to Second Temple Judaism, however, in their case, whatever authority they had, along with their collection of priceless relics such as the Ark of the Covenant, passed to the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church after the conversion of Ethiopia in the fourth century.

Thus, your argument is objectionable to me because it rejects, purely on the basis of anti-Catholicism, several of the most beautiful books of Scripture, some of which were historically more important than books in the New Testament, despite the fact that the world’s largest Protestant denomination, the Anglican Communion, uses them, and has used them since its inception. Furthermore, in the process of delegitimizing yhe Catholic Church and these books, you have also delegitimized several churches you are apparently unfamiliar with, such as the Assyrian Church of the East, which dates from the fifth century and are doctrinally not very different from some Protestant churches, and the Syriac, Indian and Antiochian Orthodox churches, which like the Assyrian church has people who still speak Aramaic in the vernacular, Aramaic being the language actually spoken by Christ in the vernacular. All three of these churches are largely comprised of Jews who accepted Christ, and Jewish last names are very common in them. Indeed in the Indian Orthodox Church, there is an endogamous group descended solely from Jews who had converted to Christianity who survived a shipwreck while sailing to Kerala, home to Jews since around 200 BC, and the city where St. Thomas was martyred (and home to a large Jewish population until the 20th century, known as Kochin Jews, such as Vidal Sassoon, and a great many Christians, descended from converted Kochin Jews and Hindus).

Thus, I am deeply troubled that you attribute authority over the Christian Bible to the leadership of a religion comprised of those Jews who did not accept Christ, while denying the legitimacy of those churches that have the most descendants of Jews who did accept Christ in antiquity, as well as Messianic Jews who consist at least in part of Jews who have recently accepted Christ.
 
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Erose

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Are those truly canonical? Based on what?
The Jewish Council of Jamnia met in A.D 90, they rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. The nation of Israel treated these books with respect, but they never accepted them as true books of the inspired Jewish Scripture. Why Does the Catholic Bible Have Extra Books?
The Jewish Council of Jamnia is a myth. It never happened. It was made up by a Protestant apologist, and has for some weird reason became the "fact" in Protestant "Histories of Christianity".
 
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Erose

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They're deuterocanonical. Secondary canon. The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) doesn't carry some or all of them.
The term "deuterocanon" is just a word to be used when discussing these books with those Protestants that reject them. Christianity has never ever considered any of these writings as being "less" than the rest of the Old Testament.

I as a Catholic really hate that term, and wished it would just disappear. In my opinion, it has done more harm than good. Sadly it was a Jewish convert to Catholicism apologist that coin the term for debating purposes with Protestants.
 
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Erose

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No, it is not my opinion. Polling has shown that the vast majority of American Catholics practice various forms of birth control with the net result being that the birth rate among Catholics is no different than that of society overall and vastly lower than the advent of birth control means. According to the Catholic Church the use of birth control is a serious sin.

Likewise, it is a mortal sin in the Catholic Church to forego attendance at weekly mass. In the Catholic countries of Europe attendance at weekly mass is in the very low single and double digits of the population. Either these folks are seriously incapacitated to the point of being chronically disabled or they are going about their normal lives with no concern for their eternal souls.
Sadly 7b's that can be said about the majority of all Christians. This isn't just a Catholic problem, it is a Christian problem. Lets pray for all fallen away Christians whether they identify as Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant that they find their ways back home and walk that long and narrow road to the bosom of our Blessed Lord.
 
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Erose

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Already explained. By God's will, now only Protestants have both a correct OT Canon and NT Canon. That's the way how Protestants are authenticated. Are you saying that only Catholics are legitimate? Or are you saying that the Jewish Canon is not legitimate?

Rather the controversy is always on whether the Apocrypha is legitimate!!!

The Jews have the canonization all the times from King Hezekiah till Ezra till the Pharisees. Like I said, it is their testimony, it is their canonization. The only conflict lies in the apocryphal books.
So you are saying that the Jews after Christ still had more authority than the Apostles and their successors after Christ? Why aren't you a Jew then, instead of a Christian since you are claiming that the Jews have more authority?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Are those truly canonical? Based on what?
The Jewish Council of Jamnia met in A.D 90, they rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. The nation of Israel treated these books with respect, but they never accepted them as true books of the inspired Jewish Scripture. Why Does the Catholic Bible Have Extra Books?
Yes indeed, all of the seven books that I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I also mentioned are canonical. Their status as canonical depends on the Church's decisions about which books are canonical. The Church decided based on use in the liturgy in many churches, antiquity, apostolic connection or authorship, acceptance by the Church fathers.

There was no council of Jamnia and consequently no "Jewish canon" created by it. The seven books I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I mentioned were not rejected because there was no council.

The Catholic Church has 73 canonical books in holy scripture. There are no extra books, just the 73 that were used by the Church in her liturgies and in the writings of the Church fathers. The question that ought to be asked is why do so many Protestant bibles have seven missing books? Specifically, why are:
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • Baruch
  • Wisdom
  • Ecclesiasticus
  • 1 Maccabees
  • 2 Maccabees
  • Parts of Esther
  • Parts of Daniel
missing?
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes indeed, all of the seven books that I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I also mentioned are canonical. Their status as canonical depends on the Church's decisions about which books are canonical. The Church decided based on use in the liturgy in many churches, antiquity, apostolic connection or authorship, acceptance by the Church fathers.

There was no council of Jamnia and consequently no "Jewish canon" created by it. The seven books I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I mentioned were not rejected because there was no council.

The Catholic Church has 73 canonical books in holy scripture. There are no extra books, just the 73 that were used by the Church in her liturgies and in the writings of the Church fathers. The question that ought to be asked is why do so many Protestant bibles have seven missing books? Specifically, why are:
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • Baruch
  • Wisdom
  • Ecclesiasticus
  • 1 Maccabees
  • 2 Maccabees
  • Parts of Esther
  • Parts of Daniel
missing?

Indeed, especially since some of them, especially Ecclesiasticus, appear in the Anglican lectionary, and these books are mostly in the KJV in its original form.
 
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disciple Clint

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The Jewish Council of Jamnia is a myth. It never happened. It was made up by a Protestant apologist, and has for some weird reason became the "fact" in Protestant "Histories of Christianity".
Oh OK please provide the evidence for that statement. Here is a reliable source. Synod of Jamnia | Judaism
 
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disciple Clint

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Yes indeed, all of the seven books that I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I also mentioned are canonical. Their status as canonical depends on the Church's decisions about which books are canonical. The Church decided based on use in the liturgy in many churches, antiquity, apostolic connection or authorship, acceptance by the Church fathers.

There was no council of Jamnia and consequently no "Jewish canon" created by it. The seven books I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I mentioned were not rejected because there was no council.

The Catholic Church has 73 canonical books in holy scripture. There are no extra books, just the 73 that were used by the Church in her liturgies and in the writings of the Church fathers. The question that ought to be asked is why do so many Protestant bibles have seven missing books? Specifically, why are:
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • Baruch
  • Wisdom
  • Ecclesiasticus
  • 1 Maccabees
  • 2 Maccabees
  • Parts of Esther
  • Parts of Daniel
missing?
Well now the Catholic Church has 73? Does that apply to the entire Catholic Church?
 
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disciple Clint

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Yes indeed, all of the seven books that I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I also mentioned are canonical. Their status as canonical depends on the Church's decisions about which books are canonical. The Church decided based on use in the liturgy in many churches, antiquity, apostolic connection or authorship, acceptance by the Church fathers.

There was no council of Jamnia and consequently no "Jewish canon" created by it. The seven books I mentioned and the parts of Esther and Daniel that I mentioned were not rejected because there was no council.

The Catholic Church has 73 canonical books in holy scripture. There are no extra books, just the 73 that were used by the Church in her liturgies and in the writings of the Church fathers. The question that ought to be asked is why do so many Protestant bibles have seven missing books? Specifically, why are:
  • Tobit
  • Judith
  • Baruch
  • Wisdom
  • Ecclesiasticus
  • 1 Maccabees
  • 2 Maccabees
  • Parts of Esther
  • Parts of Daniel
missing?
The Jewish Bible, the canon contains 22 books. The Formation of the Jewish Canon
The information below is from extensive research and is part of the Jewish Encyclopedia Josephus (c. 38-95) enumerates 22 books, which he divides as follows: 5 books of Moses; 13 histories, containing the history of Israel from Moses' death down to Artaxerxes I., written by the Prophets; and 4 remaining books consisting of hymns and admonitions. The evidence of the church fathers, such as Melito of Sardis (about 170; in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. 26) and Origen (died 253; in Eusebius, l.c. vi. 25), both of whom count 22 books, but mention 24, is unimportant; since they invoke the authority of their Jewish teachers, whose canon is known from the tannaite literature. Of still less weight is the evidence of Jerome (died 420), who also had Jewish instruction, and simply repeats what was current opinion among the Amoraim ("Prologus Galeatus" and preface to Daniel). BIBLE CANON - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Well now the Catholic Church has 73? Does that apply to the entire Catholic Church?
Yes. It applies to every Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The Jewish Bible, the canon contains 22 books. The Formation of the Jewish Canon
The information below is from extensive research and is part of the Jewish Encyclopedia Josephus (c. 38-95) enumerates 22 books, which he divides as follows: 5 books of Moses; 13 histories, containing the history of Israel from Moses' death down to Artaxerxes I., written by the Prophets; and 4 remaining books consisting of hymns and admonitions. The evidence of the church fathers, such as Melito of Sardis (about 170; in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. 26) and Origen (died 253; in Eusebius, l.c. vi. 25), both of whom count 22 books, but mention 24, is unimportant; since they invoke the authority of their Jewish teachers, whose canon is known from the tannaite literature. Of still less weight is the evidence of Jerome (died 420), who also had Jewish instruction, and simply repeats what was current opinion among the Amoraim ("Prologus Galeatus" and preface to Daniel). BIBLE CANON - JewishEncyclopedia.com
I accept that Jewish Tanakh editions have the books you've mentioned. It is noteworthy that the Tanakh does not include a single book from the New Testament. What Judaism defines as scripture is not very relevant for what the Catholic Church defines as scripture. The fundamental principle is that Christians ought to decide the Christian canon. Jews are not Christians.
 
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disciple Clint

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Yes. It applies to every Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Which means NO, it does not apply to the entire Catholic Church because even the Catholic Church can not agree on how many books are in the bible the Catholic Church include more than Roman Catholics.
 
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disciple Clint

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I accept that Jewish Tanakh editions have the books you've mentioned. It is noteworthy that the Tanakh does not include a single book from the New Testament. What Judaism defines as scripture is not very relevant for what the Catholic Church defines as scripture. The fundamental principle is that Christians ought to decide the Christian canon. Jews are not Christians.
I am not shocked that Judaism does not include the New Testament since Judaism does not accept the Gospel, come on now that is a very weak response, point in fact that Judaism should be considered the expert on what should should and should not be in the Old Testament which after all is the Jewish Bible.
 
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The Liturgist

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I am not shocked that Judaism does not include the New Testament since Judaism does not accept the Gospel, come on now that is a very weak response, point in fact that Judaism should be considered the expert on what should should and should not be in the Old Testament which after all is the Jewish Bible.

The problem is that Rabinnical Judaism does not understand the Old Testament the way Christians understand it. And also the Jews themselves do not claim authority over what goes into the Christian Bible - you are attributing to them an authority they neither have nor claim to have.
 
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The Liturgist

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Which means NO, it does not apply to the entire Catholic Church because even the Catholic Church can not agree on how many books are in the bible the Catholic Church include more than Roman Catholics.

The three largest denominational families, to wit, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Anglicanism (which is the largest Protestant grouping, worldwide) accept these books, the fourth largest denominational family, Lutheranism, has an open canon, the fifth largest denominational family, Calvinism, was founded by John Calvin who believed Baruch to be protocanonical, and the additional books are also recognized by all of the Oriental Orthodox churches, such as the Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Indian Orthodox and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Churches, which collectively amount to somewhere between 55-60 million, making them likely the sixth largest denominational family after Anglicanism, and additionally, the Old Catholics also accept these books, and they were included in the esteemed translation of the Holy Bible authorized by King James I.

To me, this is compelling evidence in favor of their use. Additionally, some of the so-called deuterocanonical books, such as Wisdom and Sirach, were more important to the Early Church than some of the books in the Tanakh, for example, the overlapping narratives of Kingdoms and Chronicles and the minor prophets, and even to a certain extent portions of the Pentateuch that dealt with the exact rules of the Torah.

Also, St. Jude did quote 1 Enoch in his Epistle, which I regard as an endorsement of the full Ethiopian canon. And as has been said before, in the Qumran Caves, Hebrew and Aramaic manuscript fragments have been found of the deuterocanonical books, and others have been found that agree with the readings found in the Septuagint.
 
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The Jewish Bible, the canon contains 22 books. The Formation of the Jewish Canon
The information below is from extensive research and is part of the Jewish Encyclopedia Josephus (c. 38-95) enumerates 22 books, which he divides as follows: 5 books of Moses; 13 histories, containing the history of Israel from Moses' death down to Artaxerxes I., written by the Prophets; and 4 remaining books consisting of hymns and admonitions. The evidence of the church fathers, such as Melito of Sardis (about 170; in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. 26) and Origen (died 253; in Eusebius, l.c. vi. 25), both of whom count 22 books, but mention 24, is unimportant; since they invoke the authority of their Jewish teachers, whose canon is known from the tannaite literature. Of still less weight is the evidence of Jerome (died 420), who also had Jewish instruction, and simply repeats what was current opinion among the Amoraim ("Prologus Galeatus" and preface to Daniel). BIBLE CANON - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Josephus was not a Christian as far as we know, and since it is highly possible that he rejected Christ, he has no more definite authority over our Christian bibles than the Samaritans.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Which means NO, it does not apply to the entire Catholic Church because even the Catholic Church can not agree on how many books are in the bible the Catholic Church include more than Roman Catholics.
What do you mean by "Roman Catholics"?
 
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