How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[John Caldwell]

Then, I've seen enough. @ICONO'CLAST was right.

That am no longer a Calvinist?
Yes, he is right.

I never said that is what Calvinists believe. I said what I believe (I didn't when I was a Calvinist).

And I have seen enough to know what I've heard about you is true as well (I knew it when you claimed I held to Arminianism). But I have made an effort, at least, to converse with you honestly.

 

[fhansen]

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, what God has in store for us... we have many ideas, but our imagination can't do the job. We might even have valid words for it from Scripture, but no, we have barely a clue, if that, what God has done for us.

Well, even though that doesn't apply to what we were discussing, which has do with God's will for us in the here and now, I'd submit that He we have barely a clue of what He has in store for us. I'd also submit that He's nonethlesses given people direct "glimpses" of that future, of that union with Him, which, again, begins in the here and now. Even faith, Aquinas taught, is, as a supernatural gift, a dim of foretaste of that ultimate experience. Either way,

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't know what you are talking about. Do you?

I'm talking about 1 Timothy 2:1-6, which you pretty much based the main point of your post on.

 

[John Caldwell]

Now that I think of it, I'd say that there are only two steps to becoming a Calvivinist.

1. Adopt the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement

2. Follow that Theory to its logical conclusion.

If forgiveness means that the Father punished Christ instead of punishing us, then at least limited Atonement has to be right (.....well.....or Universalism).

 

[Clare73]

God is just (He will punish the wicked).

dikaiosune - quality or character of being right or just, and which root word is
dike - justice (execution of a sentence--2 Thessalonians 1:9; punishment, vengeance--Acts 28:4;
Jude 7).

And how did God demonstrate his justice in Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (Romans 3:24-26)?
How did he punish the previous wickedness (Romans 3:9-11) of the NT redeemed (Romans 3:26)?

How did God "pass over," what did he previously omit doing (Romans 3:25),
that he then did on the cross, regarding the sin of the OT saints, and
which doing was Jesus' payment of the ransom to buy us back, redeem us from our sentence to eternal death (Romans 5:18)?

These questions remain unanswered by you.
Their correct answers; i.e., in agreement with NT apostolic teaching,
and the correct meaning of justification (dikaiosis) as forensic
demonstrate penal substitutionary atonement.

Crickets. . .

Q.E.D.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now that I think of it, I'd say that there are only two steps to becoming a Calvivinist.

1. Adopt the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement

2. Follow that Theory to its logical conclusion.

If forgiveness means that the Father punished Christ instead of punishing us, then at least limited Atonement has to be right (.....well.....or Universalism).

Wrong. Adopt the fact that God is Omnipotent. Take that to its logical conclusion.

Edit: Adopt the Scriptural fact that God is Omnipotent

 

[John Mullally]

I'm talking about 1 Timothy 2:1-6, which you pretty much based the main point of your post on.

Well you did not say that - instead you used the Calvinist buzz-word of claiming poor exegesis. Instead of claimiing poor exegesis or eisegesis, why not explicitly state what you find wrong in the other's post?

I will continue to reference 1 Timothy 2:1-6 in accordance with 2 Corinthians 10:5.

2 Corinthians 10:5 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,​

 

[John Caldwell]

Wrong. Adopt the fact that God is Omnipotent. Take that to its logical conclusion.

Edit: Adopt the Scriptural fact that God is Omnipotent

No. There are many varieties of theologies that believe God is Omnipotent. For one, there is the determinism that non-Calvinists often accuse Calvinists of holding.

There is also my view. It is based not only on an Omnipotent God (where omnipotence may or may not be exercized) but on divine sovereignty expressed in God's sovereignty over His creation.

Then, I've seen enough. @ICONO'CLAST was right.

I'm still waiting on you to explain your claim that accusations against me are correct. It's a matter of integrity (and the fact Christians shouldn't gossip).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, even though that doesn't apply to what we were discussing, which has do with God's will for us in the here and now, I'd submit that He we have barely a clue of what He has in store for us. I'd also submit that He's nonethlesses given people direct "glimpses" of that future, of that union with Him, which, again, begins in the here and now. Even faith, Aquinas taught, is, as a supernatural gift, a dim of foretaste of that ultimate experience. Either way,

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12

I'm not the one who said, "and we know that He can and does begin to sanctify us already here on earth which must happen in order to gain eternal life (Rom 6:22, Heb 12:14) so we certainly should have some idea what it means!"

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well you did not say that - instead you used the Calvinist buzz-word of claiming poor exegesis. Instead of claimiing poor exegesis or eisegesis, why not explicitly state what you find wrong in the other's post?

You based your post, as I remember, or at least a good portion of it, on your use of 1 Timothy. We have been through that too many times; have a good day, as the saying goes. No point in continuing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No. There are many varieties of theologies that believe God is Omnipotent. For one, there is the determinism that non-Calvinists often accuse Calvinists of holding.

If Omnipotence involves the ability to grant uncaused choice, it is not Omnipotence, but a self-contradictory construction in someone's mind.

There is also my view. It is based not only on an Omnipotent God (where omnipotence may or may not be exercized) but on divine sovereignty expressed in God's sovereignty over His creation.

If omnipotence is not what always controls, then chance does. Self-contradictory, again. Nothing can happen by accident, but always by God's decree.

I'm still waiting on you to explain your claim that accusations against me are correct. It's a matter of integrity (and the fact Christians shouldn't gossip).

HA! And here you have revealed yourself. @ICONO'CLAST didn't say it was about you. I didn't say it was about you. Who did? You!

 

[fhansen]

I'm not the one who said, "and we know that He can and does begin to sanctify us already here on earth which must happen in order to gain eternal life (Rom 6:22, Heb 12:14) so we certainly should have some idea what it means!"

Yes, we should have some idea of His will for us, as He changes us. That was the subject as far as I know.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Show how Calvinism is works-centered. Must it be works negligent before you see it is God centered?

If you do not do works.........Calvinism says you were not really saved. Hence a work based religion.

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON

ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[fhansen]

Good Day, All

How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps: - The Cripplegate

A true statement, as long as he didn’t sin. Jesus came to forgive and take it away, of course, not leave us in it.

 

[John Caldwell]

If Omnipotence involves the ability to grant uncaused choice, it is not Omnipotence, but a self-contradictory construction in someone's mind.

If omnipotence is not what always controls, then chance does. Self-contradictory, again. Nothing can happen by accident, but always by God's decree.

???? Have you confused me with another member? I never said things happen by accident. I said I believe everything is predestined.

Chance??? I said God's Sovereignty. How is that chance???

Mark, your replies seem random here. They are not linked to anything I have actually posted.

Why even bother to quote me if you're just going to completely ignore what I have posted ???

Have you become so unable to defend your position that you must strike at windmills?

HA! And here you have revealed yourself. @ICONO'CLAST didn't say it was about you. I didn't say it was about you. Who did? You!

I have no idea what you are talking about.
What is about me?

I'm saying that my reply to you is about my current belief (not linked to my explanation of the 5 points.

I thought more of you than to speak in nonsense riddles. I didn't mention Icono'clast. I just said that my post was my current view (not what I previously held as true).

 

[BBAS 64]

A true statement, as long as he didn’t sin. Jesus came to forgive and take it away, of course, not leave us in it.

Good Day, fhansen

If the Son sets you free you are free indeed.... If he does not set you free you are for sure not free.

Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

In Him,

Bill

 

[atpollard]

Now that I think of it, I'd say that there are only two steps to becoming a Calvivinist.

1. Adopt the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement

2. Follow that Theory to its logical conclusion.

If forgiveness means that the Father punished Christ instead of punishing us, then at least limited Atonement has to be right (.....well.....or Universalism).

Respectfully, I became a 4-point Calvinist (TU*IP) by reading scripture in a Wesleyan Holiness Bible Study as I tried to reconcile their teaching on prevenient grace with my empirical sotieriological experience (atheism to Born Again). The question of ATONEMENT, beyond gratitude that Christ had died for ME, never entered my mind. However both Scripture and Life affirm these 4 TRUTHS:

• People are no darn good (T)
• God does as He pleases and does not stop to ask our permission. (U)
• God does not TRY, God DOES. (I)
• God finishes what God starts. (P)

I later learned that these truths had been around for 500+ years and went by a popular acronym called "TULIP". So apparently, I found "Calvinism" at the (Wesleyan) Church of God of Anderson, Indiana.

I am a 5-point CALVINIST and I do not believe in PENAL SUBSTITUTION. Cristus Victor works just as well with Jesus SAVING all that God intends to save, rather than TRYING to save all without exception and FAILING (because of people) ... the alternative to LIMITED.

(it is all about monergism vs synergism ... "God Alone" vs. "God & man together")

 

[John Caldwell]

Respectfully, I became a 4-point Calvinist (TU*IP) by reading scripture in a Wesleyan Holiness Bible Study as I tried to reconcile their teaching on prevenient grace with my empirical sotieriological experience (atheism to Born Again). The question of ATONEMENT, beyond gratitude that Christ had died for ME, never entered my mind. However both Scripture and Life affirm these 4 TRUTHS:

• People are no darn good (T)
• God does as He pleases and does not stop to ask our permission. (U)
• God does not TRY, God DOES. (I)
• God finishes what God starts. (P)

I later learned that these truths had been around for 500+ years and went by a popular acronym called "TULIP". So apparently, I found "Calvinism" at the (Wesleyan) Church of God of Anderson, Indiana.

I am a 5-point CALVINIST and I do not believe in PENAL SUBSTITUTION. Cristus Victor works just as well with Jesus SAVING all that God intends to save, rather than TRYING to save all without exception and FAILING (because of people) ... the alternative to LIMITED.

You and I probably hold similar beliefs.

I can agree with the five points, but not in the same way a Calvinist would because I hold to a Christus Victor view rather than Penal Substitution Theory.

For example - I believe in total depravity and that men come to God by God drawing them. I believe in unconditional election in the sence that God saves men based on His will (He meets the conditions, not men). I believe that Christ died to save those who believe. I believe that God accomplishes His purposes in salvation. And I believe in eternal security. I also believe in predestination and "double predestination).

But not holding to Penal Substitution Theory my reasons are not Calvinistic. I believe, for example, that God can forgive sins. I believe that God forgives based on repentance, but that this repentance is accomplished by God in the hearts of believers based on the work of Christ.