How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[John Mullally]

Ok, I'll play. What are these long chains of reasoning you seem to ascribe to those of us who disagree with your theology?

The Calvinist Theological Framework (a maze supporting fatalistic philosophy best understood by its five-points in the TULIP acronymn - with each point in turn requiring long argumentation). We are talking about a seriously long chain of reasoning. That framework should have been a non-starter based upon 1 Timothy 2:1-6 where Paul explains to Timothy why believers are to pray for all men: two of the reasons of note that contradict the Calvinist framework are (a) because God desires all men to be saved and (b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all.

1 Timothy 2:1Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

As @Clare73 says, Already litigated.

Clare73's method of dismissing the clear meaning of 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is to say Paul is talking about "all types of men" rather then "all men" in that passage. Given that interprettation, the passage is rendered nearly meaningless. Clare73 supports that claim by saying that Paul was aluding to something never stated in his letters to Timothy - which is the introduction of Gentiles into the church. Basically Clare73 is saying God desires a mixture of some Jews and some Gentiles to be saved - likewise Christ's ransommed only some.

 

[John Caldwell]

Q.E.D.

No. You were just trying to cover up that you abandoned the discussion when asked for clarification.

Look at my posts. While you may not like them there was no misrepresentation, no false assertions, and no dishonest rhetoric.

You asked me to address Jesus as a random. I had repeatedly done this (my view of Atonement is fo used on Christ as a Ransom). So I simply asked what part you didn't get. And you ran away.

 

[John Caldwell]

Some people deny spiritual death took place
Some people have posted in times past, Adam had no spirit, he was just flesh.
When questioned they eventually posted a more consistent view.
Once you get the fall wrong it is not long before you deny the atonement as substitution.
This could even lead to unbiblical beliefs about the trinity, confusing the persons of the Godhead, into a modalism of sorts.
I mark such people and avoid them.

I agree the view that Adam (and Eve, presumably) were just flesh without a spirit is problematic.

But I am unaware of any theology holding that view.

Do you mean some believe Adam was flesh and spirit/ soul while others believe Adam was created flesh, spirit and soul (dichotomy vs trichotomy)?

I believe Adam was created flesh, spirit and soul (three parts) but I understand why others believe the spirit and soul are the same.

If that is not what you mean, what is the doctrine that Adam was created just flesh called? And can you provide a denomination that believes that?

Or....Paul says that Adam was created flesh as opposed to Spirit, but I don't see this as meaning Adam did not have a human spirit. Maybe the doctrine you reference is in the context of that passage (if I recall in 1 Cor), comparing the "Adam's". Maybe you confused what was said in a sermon or book? Paul was referring to the flesh vs Spirit (not the parts of man). Or maybe that pastor or author confused the two.

 

[Clare73]

No. You were just trying to cover up that you abandoned the discussion when asked for clarification.
Look at my posts. While you may not like them there was no misrepresentation, no false assertions, and no dishonest rhetoric.
You asked me to address Jesus as a random. I had repeatedly done this (my view of Atonement is fo used on Christ as a Ransom). So I simply asked what part you didn't get. And you ran away.

Previously litigated. . .

 

[John Caldwell]

Previously addressed. . .

Yes, I previously assessed Christ as the Ransom.

What part of my explanation did you not understand or find problematic? Do you agree or disagree with my explanation? If you disagree, in what part?

Please provide specifics and I'll do my best to address them.

 

[fhansen]

Circular. . .

Previously addressed. . .

Relevance to determining their truth?

What is subjectively meaningful to me could also be untrue.

"Meaningfulness" to me personally is not an objective measure for God's truth.

as explained previously a meaningful choice would be one that is not determined for us beforehand. The difference would be similar to my making a choice for my child versus wanting them to make their own choices, right ones, of course

 

[Clare73]

As @Clare73 says, Already litigated.

Claire73's method of dismissing the clear meaning of 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is to say
Paul is talking about "all types of men" rather then "all men" in that passage.

And which has nothing to do with "Previously litigated."

 

[Clare73]

as explained previously a meaningful choice would be one that is not determined for us beforehand. The difference would be similar to my making a choice for my child versus wanting them to make their own choices, right ones, of course

Irrelevant to the point, which is about a valid basis for determining what is God's truth.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I previously assessed Christ as the Ransom.

What part of my explanation did you not understand or find problematic? Do you agree or disagree with my explanation? If you disagree, in what part?

Please provide specifics and I'll do my best to address them.

dikaiosune - quality or character of being right or just, and which root word is
dike - justice (execution of a sentence, 2 Thessalonians 1:9; punishment, vengeance, Acts 28:4;
Jude 7).

How does God demonstrate his justice (dikaiosune - sentence, punishment, vengeance)
in Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (Romans 3:25)?

How did God "pass over," what did he previously omit doing (Romans 3:25), that he then did on the cross, regarding the sin of the OT saints?

 

[John Caldwell]

dikaiosune - quality or character of being right or just, and which root word is
dike - justice (execution of a sentence, 2 Thessalonians 1:9; punishment, vengeance, Acts 28:4; Jude 7).

How does God demonstrate his justice (dikaiosune - sentence, punishment, vengeance) in Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (Romans 3:25)?

So we are switching from ἀντίλυτρον. Thats fine.

God is just and the justified of sinners. I think the easiest explanation is Ezekiel 36 where God explains that He will remove the heart of stone and give men a new heart, a new spirit, put His Spirit in them and cleans them.

Other verses are applicable as well. We must die to (Romans 6). We must be made new creations in Christ (2 Cor 5).

God does not need to punish sinful acts. God punishes sinners (the wicked). Man simply does not control God with his sin, does not create in God a sence of obligation.

God forgives sin. How is this just? God recreates us.

 

[John Mullally]

And which has nothing to do with "Previously litigated."

You frequently use terse pat phrases like "previously litigated" or "already addressed in ....". I know we have interchanged on 1 Timothy 2:1-6 multiple times. Given your habits, those phrases should apply unless you have changed your mind or I misrepresented you - in which case please detail. As you like to say, QED. Is this "irrelevant to the point"?

 

[Clare73]

So we are switching from ἀντίλυτρον. Thats fine.

Atonement is ἀντίλυτρον.

God is just and the justified of sinners.

God justifies (declares righteous, imputes Christ's righteousness to, Romans 4:1-11) sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.

I think the easiest explanation is Ezekiel 36 where God explains that He will remove the heart of stone and give men a new heart, a new spirit, put His Spirit in them and cleans them.

I think the only explanation is the NT explanation of imputation of Christ's righteousness
in Romans 4:1-11.

Other verses are applicable as well. We must die to (Romans 6). We must be made new creations in Christ (2 Cor 5).

God does not need to punish sinful acts. God punishes sinners (the wicked).

Agreed. . .and he "punished" Christ who bore our sin in our stead.

Man simply does not control God with his sin, does not create in God a sence of obligation.

Irrelevant.

God forgives sin. How is this just?

"Forgiveness" is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of a debt."

God doesn't cancel debts that are not paid, he being the just Judge of Jesus' analogy who will throw you into prison until you've paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

God recreates us.

 

[John Caldwell]

Atonement is ἀντίλυτρον.

God justifies (declares righteous, imputes Christ's righteousness to, Romans 4:1-11) sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.

I think the only explanation is the NT explanation of imputation of Christ's righteousness
in Romans 4:1-11.

Agreed. . .and he "punished" Christ who bore our sin in our stead.

Irrelevant.

"Forgiveness" is an accounting term, meaning "cancellation of a debt."

God doesn't cancel debts that are not paid, he being the just Judge of Jesus' analogy who will throw you into prison until you've paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26).

Several issues.

First, atonement is not ἀντίλυτρον. The word we use for NT atonement is "reconciliation" ("atonement" is an English word for reconciliation).

Second, Scripture does not state that God punished Christ. It pleased Him to crush Jesus, which of course Peter explains very well when he told the Jewish leaders that they had killed Jesus, which was evil, but this was by the predetermined plan of God.

Third, God is God. Man does not create a debt or I jury in God. God can, in fact, forgive sins (something Calvinism denies).

Fourth, you ate taking Matthew 5:25:severely out of context. The passage is Jesus saying to make friends with the one owed money. Otherwise he will have you thrown in jail.

If applied to salvation this would mean be reconciled with God and He will forgive you, otherwise you will be condemned.

 

[atpollard]

Good Day, All
How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps: - The Cripplegate

I found the article funny.
The part I liked best was that he advised people to make EVERY EFFORT to avoid Calvinism.

1. Start learning about God in a church that wants NOTHING to do with Calvinism.
2. Hear something about Calvinism and get mad at it.
3. Read a book that explains why Calvinism is "bad/wrong/evil".
4. Read a book that offers a "better way" than Calvinism:
   • Norm Geisler’s Chosen but Free
   • Bryson's The Five Points of Calvinism
5. Only after you are sure that you have tried EVERYTHING ELSE first, read something that explains Calvinism actually written by a Calvinist:
   • The Potter’s Freedom by James White
     
   • Slave by John MacArthur
   • Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by JI Packer
   • What we Teach about the Five Points of Calvinism by John Piper

That's the great thing about the TRUTH ... it will still be there when you are finally willing to hear it.
Gravity doesn't care if you believe in Gravity or not ... it still keeps the planets in orbit and holds you to the surface of the Earth. "T.U.L.I.P." is sort of like that, too.

So YOU GO FOR IT!
Believe HARD that you chose God.
Stand FIRM in your "free will".
OF COURSE your eternal destiny is decided by YOUR faith.
THE BIBLE will still be waiting with the truth 1000 years from now ... so take your time.

"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" - Philippians 1:6 [NKJV]

 

[John Mullally]

God recreates us.

This recreation is a result of responding to the Gospel message, not fatalism. God does not favor some and assigns the rest to hell. There is no puppetry on God's part (i.e rephrased as Irresistable Grace).

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.​

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Fatalism definition from Websters: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them

 

[BBAS 64]

I found the article funny.
The part I liked best was that he advised people to make EVERY EFFORT to avoid Calvinism.

1. Start learning about God in a church that wants NOTHING to do with Calvinism.
2. Hear something about Calvinism and get mad at it.
3. Read a book that explains why Calvinism is "bad/wrong/evil".
4. Read a book that offers a "better way" than Calvinism:
   • Norm Geisler’s Chosen but Free
   • Bryson's The Five Points of Calvinism
5. Only after you are sure that you have tried EVERYTHING ELSE first, read something that explains Calvinism actually written by a Calvinist:
   • The Potter’s Freedom by James White
     
   • Slave by John MacArthur
   • Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by JI Packer
   • What we Teach about the Five Points of Calvinism by John Piper

That's the great thing about the TRUTH ... it will still be there when you are finally willing to hear it.
Gravity doesn't care if you believe in Gravity or not ... it still keeps the planets in orbit and holds you to the surface of the Earth. "T.U.L.I.P." is sort of like that, too.

So YOU GO FOR IT!
Believe HARD that you chose God.
Stand FIRM in your "free will".
OF COURSE your eternal destiny is decided by YOUR faith.
THE BIBLE will still be waiting with the truth 1000 years from now ... so take your time.

"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" - Philippians 1:6 [NKJV]

Good Day, atpollard

I agree that is why I posted it....

 

[Clare73]

This recreation is a result of responding to the Gospel message, not fatalism. God does not favor some and assigns the rest to hell. There is no puppetry on God's part (i.e rephrased as Irresistable Grace).

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.​

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them​

Fatalism definition from Websters: a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them

And you're addressing this to me, because?

You must have me confused with someone else. . .

 

[Clare73]

You frequently use terse pat phrases like "previously litigated" or "already addressed in ....".

Code for "you're going in circles" or "you're repeating yourself"?

Feel free to actually address what I present in any of those posts. . .

.

 

[Clare73]

Several issues.
First, atonement is not ἀντίλυτρον. The word we use for NT atonement is "reconciliation" ("atonement" is an English word for reconciliation).

If by "English" word, you mean "being at-one-ment," that is pure fabrication.

The NT words are propitiation (hilasmos--1 John 2:2, 4:10)
and mercy-seat (hilasterion--Romans 3:25; Hebrews 9:5), the Ark cover.

Second, Scripture does not state that God punished Christ. It pleased Him to crush Jesus, which of course Peter explains very well when he told the Jewish leaders that they had killed Jesus, which was evil, but this was by the predetermined plan of God.
Third, God is God. Man does not create a debt or I jury in God. God can, in fact, forgive sins (something Calvinism denies).
Fourth, you ate taking Matthew 5:25:severely out of context. The passage is Jesus saying to make friends with the one owed money. Otherwise he will have you thrown in jail.
If applied to salvation this would mean be reconciled with God and He will forgive you, otherwise you will be condemned.

And the answer to the question?

And also this question:
"On behalf of us he made him sin bearer who knew no sin." (2 Corinthians 5:21)

If that's not "instead of us" or "for us," it oughta' be.

 

[atpollard]

Good Day, atpollard

I agree that is why I posted it....

The art of irony seems to be generally dying out, but I appreciate the "situational irony" in this TOPIC:

People reject discussing the article and its 5 steps and immediately proceed to put on a "MoralityPlay" before our eyes that lives out each of the 5 steps passionately disagreeing with each other.

1. The posters that want to talk about anything but Calvinism
2. The posters that are mad at Calvinism.
3. The posters warning others against "bad/wrong/evil" Calvinism
4. The posters that found a "better way" than Calvinism.
5. The posters that are Calvinists trying to explain Calvinism.

The HEAVENS may declare His Glory, but PEOPLE declare His sense of humor.