Why Justification is by Faith Alone

[HTacianas]

Christ is the end of the law of righteousness. That means that you are justified without the law.

You have to go back now and find out just what the "law of righteousness" was.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

You have to go back now and find out just what the "law of righteousness" was.

Righteousness means doing what's right.

 

[RobertPate]

It's not the Bible contradicting itself, it's you that contradicts Scripture.

Your opinion.

The scripture still says... "Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness" Romans 10:4.

If that is not enough Paul said, "Wherefore my brethren, you are also become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body of Christ" Romans 7:4.

"But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW that being dead wherein we were held" Romans 7:6.

End of the law. Dead to the law. Delivered from the law. You all want to be alive to the law.

 

[HTacianas]

Righteousness means doing what's right.

But that is not what is meant by the "law of righteousness". It refers to all those trappings of the Jewish law that have never been a part of Christianity. By way of example:

Lev 15:16 ‘If any man has an emission of sperm, then he shall wash all his body in water, and be unclean until evening.

Note that it has never been a part of Christianity. It is part of the "law of righteousness", also called "the works of the law".

 

[Guojing]

Your opinion.

The scripture still says... "Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness" Romans 10:4.

If that is not enough Paul said, "Wherefore my brethren, you are also become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body of Christ" Romans 7:4.

"But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW that being dead wherein we were held" Romans 7:6.

End of the law. Dead to the law. Delivered from the law. You all want to be alive to the law.

Ever wonder why you are quoting Paul in this post?

Learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

Before Paul, faith requires a work to be shown by man to God.

After Paul, faith no longer requires work (Romans 4:5).

 

[RobertPate]

But that is not what is meant by the "law of righteousness". It refers to all those trappings of the Jewish law that have never been a part of Christianity. By way of example:

Lev 15:16 ‘If any man has an emission of sperm, then he shall wash all his body in water, and be unclean until evening.

Note that it has never been a part of Christianity. It is part of the "law of righteousness", also called "the works of the law".

Anything in the Bible that tells us to do something or not to do something is law. There are hundreds and hundreds of laws. Christians are not under any of them.

 

[RobertPate]

Ever wonder why you are quoting Paul in this post?

Learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

Before Paul, faith requires a work to be shown by man to God.

After Paul, faith no longer requires work (Romans 4:5).

No one in either the Old Testament or the New Testament was saved or justified by works or obedience. Salvation has always been by faith.

 

[Soyeong]

So, now you believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Jesus said he did not come to abolish God’s law, Paul confirm that our faith does not abolish the law, and you say that Christ came to abolish the law, so the Bible does not contradict itself, but rather it just contradicts you.

Romans 3:31 does not say that our faith upholds the law. What it says is that "We establish the law". We establish the law by being "In Christ". God sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

There are many translations that say the we uphold the law, but either way it is the opposite of abolishing it. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to God’s law, so those who are in Christ also uphold/establish God’s law by walking in obedience to it, while those who say that God’s law had been abolished want nothing to do with being in Christ, and thus should not consider Colossians 2:10 to be speaking about them.

 

[Soyeong]

No one in either the Old Testament or the New Testament was saved or justified by works or obedience. Salvation has always been by faith.

In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 in regard to Abraham being justified because he believed God in order to support saying that he was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so you are wrong that no one was justified by works and wrong to not consider that as him being justified by his faith.

 

[RobertPate]

In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 in regard to Abraham being justified because he believed God in order to support saying that he was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so you are wrong that no one was justified by works and wrong to not consider that as him being justified by his faith.

Christians are justified by faith alone, because they are justified by Christ alone. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

The book of James was not directed to Gentile believers, it was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1. James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also like you, believes that you must keep the law of Moses. If works, laws or obedience justified then Jesus lived and died in vain.

 

[Soyeong]

​

You need to consider the complete context of verses 27-31 (TLV) when debating Robert Pate. Do not cherry pick one verse to blooster your belief (see verse 28). Paul is writing to gentile believers with respect to the "law of faith" being more important than Torah observance (verse 28 - TLV). Isn't Paul implying that the principle law of faith is able to set a person right apart from Torah observance? Messianic Judaism would probably disagree with Paul (verse 28).

I did not cherry pick. While I agree that there is a law of works and a law of faith according to Romans 3:28, works of the law are of works, while in Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Torah, so it is of faith. In Romans 3:27, it contrasts justification by faith with works of the law, not the Torah. The Torah that our faith upholds in Romans 3:31 can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to anything that God has commanded, which is why they are not of faith in God. God is trustworthy, therefore His Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on the Torah is to rely on God, while to deny that the Torah is of faith would have been to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul contrasted the Book of the Law, which is of faith, with works of the law, which are not of faith. He connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, that the one who obeys the Torah will attain life by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah, while not on is justified by works of the law, because they are not of faith, unlike the Torah, where only doers of the Torah will be justified (Romans 2:13). In addition, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it.

Furthermore, there are many verses that associate our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as James 2:18, where he would show his faith by his works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, disobedience is equated with unbelief. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to the Torah is described as breaking faith. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way to become justified by grace through faith.

 

[Guojing]

No one in either the Old Testament or the New Testament was saved or justified by works or obedience. Salvation has always been by faith.

Read my post properly. I am not saying salvation was ever by works.

I am saying faith in time past requires a work to be done in response by Man, but it's always that faith that saves you.

Read Hebrews 11 for some examples. If Noah believed God that a flood was coming but did not respond with the work in building the ark, he would have drowned with the rest of mankind.

 

[Guojing]

Christians are justified by faith alone, because they are justified by Christ alone. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

The book of James was not directed to Gentile believers, it was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1. James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also like you, believes that you must keep the law of Moses. If works, laws or obedience justified then Jesus lived and died in vain.

Out of curiosity, are you a pre-trib believer?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

But that is not what is meant by the "law of righteousness".

Then why is it called the law of righteousness in the first place?

 

[HTacianas]

Then why is it called the law of righteousness in the first place?

It is the means by which the Jews under the old covenant made themselves righteous. They were acts taken to atone for unintentional sins and also for ritual purity. Christianity has always taught that by faith we are cleansed from unintentional sins and ritual impurities:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[RobertPate]

Out of curiosity, are you a pre-trib believer?

The only thing that I am looking forward to is the return of Jesus.

 

[JulieB67]

Christ himself taught that we can't just be hearers his words but doers as well. To me, it's complete hypocrisy to claim to be a Christian but turn your back on what Christ taught and live your life exactly as "you" want, and not our Father's will. As John preaches the truth is not in you if that's the case.

A Christian as Paul taught is to keep moving towards santification/maturation. Of course no one will ever be perfect but it someone has found that repentance, Christ of course is our example.

It's not about works as in I "must" try and have them. It's the fact that you want to live your life with Christ as your example. That's the change of heart. That's the true repentance. If one sins, they have an advocate to get right back on that path that they "honestly want" to be on. If you are on that path, works come naturally from the heart. And that's what James is teaching as well. Faith produces works

Peter as well states be holy because Christ was. Again, no one is perfect but Christ is our example.

I Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

I Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance.:"

I Peter 1:15 "But as He Which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation:"

I Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, Who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

ETA, there's a condition here with Paul's teaching as well -


Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[RobertPate]

Christ himself taught that we can't just be hearers his words but doers as well. To me, it's completely hypocrisy to claim to be a Christian but turn your back on what Christ taught and live your life exactly as "you" want, and not our Father's will. As John preaches the truth is not in you if that's the case.

A Christian as Paul taught is to keep moving towards santification/maturation. Of course no one will ever be perfect but it someone has found that repentance, Christ of course is our example.

It's not about works as in I "must" try and have them. It's the fact that you want to live your life with Christ as your example. That's the change of heart. That's the true repentance. If one sins, they have an advocate to get right back on that path that they "honestly want" to be on. If you are on that path, works come naturally from the heart. And that's what James is teaching as well. Faith produces works

Peter as well states be holy because Christ was. Again, no one is perfect but Christ is our example.

I Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

I Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance.:"

I Peter 1:15 "But as He Which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation:"

I Peter 1:17 "And if ye call on the Father, Who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

ETA, there's a condition here with Paul's teaching as well -


Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Anything in the Bible that tells us to do something or not to do something is law.

If you need to be told how to live, then the law is for you.

Born again Christians don't need laws, rules or instructions because they are led by the Holy Spirit.

Paul said, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient" 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[AbbaLove]

I did not cherry pick. While I agree that there is a law of works and a law of faith according to Romans 3:28, works of the law are of works, while in Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Torah, so it is of faith.

Maybe just unintentional cherry picking to support what may be your MJ belief that the "goal" (TLV) of the Torah has something to do with obeying as many of the 613 Torah laws as possible; while ingnoring verse 28 (TLV). When Paul says that "our faith upholds it" he is not referring to the 613 Jewish laws/commands of Torah observance ...

Romans 3:28 (TLV)
28 For we consider a person to be set right apart from Torah observance.​

Being you agree with verse 28 then what "law of faith" do you believe Paul is referring to as the principle law of faith being he is not including the 613 commands/statues of Torah Observance.

Rather, in Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it

What "law" are you referring to? So as Messianic Christians we both agree Paul is not referring to the 613 Hebrew laws/commands, but rather another principle "law of faith" that leads to righteousness. It's obvious it's not the 613 laws as Rahab was a Canaanite woman unfamiliar with the 613 Torah laws (Hebrews 11) ...

"By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient,
because she welcomed the spies with shalom." (11:31 TLV)​

How would you explain the principle "law of faith" in your own words by which Abraham was justified as righteous as well as the other patriarchs, the Israelites when they crossed the Red Sea on dry land (faith in action) and even Rahab the inn keeper and prostitute.

As you read through Hebrews 11 how would you explain this "law of faith" to both Jew and non-Jew so as to be more inclusive than the TLV and CJB ...

31 Do we then nullify the Torah through faithfulness? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah. (TLV)
31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah. (CJB)​

Here's another translation that's more inclusive than the Jewish Torah ...

31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. (NLT)​

 

[Danthemailman]

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6)