Why Justification is by Faith Alone

[RobertPate]

The Bible has quote a bit to say against your lawless religion, so there is a much bigger problem with it.



In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false way far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of becoming righteous by grace through faith.



God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us how to express spiritual principles of which the lists laws are examples, and which are aspects of God's nature, such as holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12).



I never claimed that, nor has that ever been a requirement for righteousness.

If you are going to obey the law, you will have to obey every jot and tittle of it. James said if you fail to keep one part of the law, you have failed the whole thing, James 2:10.

Galatians 3:10 says, "Cursed is everyone that does not continue to do everything that is written in the book of the law". God requires perfection. This is why Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". When you go into the judgment you had better be perfect. God only accepts perfection. If he accepted sin that would make him a sinner.

 

[AbbaLove]

Paul's letter to the Christians at Galatia does not support being yoked to the Mosaic commandments that a Messianic Jew may believe are still very relevant today ... even for Christians.

Galatians 3:1-5
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

Galatians 5:1-6
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.​

It's seems quite obvious by now that Soyeong may not believe that portions of Paul's letters apply to Messianic Jews. She is welcome to her beliefs so why try to convince her that Paul's letters are equally applicable to Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua? It's possible Soyeong has come to believe that portions of Paul's letters have unyoked born again Gentile Christians from those commandments of the Mosaic Law that she believes are still in affect today for Gentile Christians.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

Apparently she believes Christians would be more righteous if the Holy Spirit had instructed Paul to teach the born again Christians to be yoked to the Mosaic laws. The "beloved" Apostle John does echo Soyeong's trust in keeping His Commands LOUD and CLEAR ...

1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did.​

It's just that Robert Pate and Soyeong can't agree on what commands. Thus it would be helpful (Galatians 3:28) if they agree to disagree with each one as to what commands they believe are required. Because this never-ending controversy even during the time of the Apostle John is it not possible that John is directing his teaching (via the Holy Spirit) to Messianic Jews and NOT Gentile Believers.

It is just as likely that even Cornelius felt obligated to follow commandments ...

He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. (10:2) The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (10:4)​

It's just as real that Soyeong is justified by her trust in the commands that she believes with all her heart are important to her Messianic growth. Likewise it's just as real that Robert Pate is justified by his faith in the gospel (Good News) that the Apostle Paul advanced in his letters to Gentile Christians.

Conclusion: Both the Apostle John and Apostle Paul were led by the Holy Spirit so they both were being led to teach/preach the Gospel to Gentile Believers and Jewish Believers as led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[RobertPate]

Paul's letter to the Christians at Galatia does not support being yoked to the Mosaic commandments that a Messianic Jew may believe are still very relevant today ... even for Christians.

Galatians 3:1-5
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

Galatians 5:1-6
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.​

It's seems quite obvious by now that Soyeong may not believe that portions of Paul's letters apply to Messianic Jews. She is welcome to her beliefs so why try to convince her that Paul's letters are equally applicable to Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua? It's possible Soyeong has come to believe that portions of Paul's letters have unyoked born again Gentile Christians from those commandments of the Mosaic Law that she believes are still in affect today for Gentile Christians.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

Apparently she believes Christians would be more righteous if the Holy Spirit had instructed Paul to teach the born again Christians to be yoked to the Mosaic laws. The "beloved" Apostle John does echo Soyeong's trust in keeping His Commands LOUD and CLEAR ...

1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did.​

It's just that Robert Pate and Soyeong can't agree on what commands. Thus it would be helpful (Galatians 3:28) if they agree to disagree with each one as to what commands they believe are required. Because this never-ending controversy even during the time of the Apostle John is it not possible that John is directing his teaching (via the Holy Spirit) to Messianic Jews and NOT Gentile Believers.

It is just as likely that even Cornelius felt obligated to follow commandments ...

He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. (10:2) The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (10:4)​

It's just as real that Soyeong is justified by her trust in the commands that she believes with all her heart are important to her Messianic growth. Likewise it's just as real that Robert Pate is justified by his faith in the gospel (Good News) that the Apostle Paul advanced in his letters to Gentile Christians.

Conclusion: Both the Apostle John and Apostle Paul were led by the Holy Spirit so they both were being led to teach/preach the Gospel to Gentile Believers and Jewish Believers as led by the Holy Spirit.

Christians are not under any laws, not Moses law, Jesus's law, Paul's law, or any kind of laws. We are 100% free in Christ. Why can't people believe that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" Romans 10:4. The law is like their security blanket because they can't live by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Soyeong]

Paul's letter to the Christians at Galatia does not support being yoked to the Mosaic commandments that a Messianic Jew may believe are still very relevant today ... even for Christians.

Galatians 3:1-5
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

Galatians 5:1-6
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.​

​

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example, if were it were true that Galatians does not support obedience to the Torah, then it would not support that followers of Christ should follow Christ, which is absurd.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-5 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to anything that God has commanded, so you're completely missing what Galatians is speaking against. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Torah, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against obeying the Torah, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, are according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so they uphold the Torah by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:1-6 as Paul warning us against doing that and warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ.

It's seems quite obvious by now that Soyeong may not believe that portions of Paul's letters apply to Messianic Jews. She is welcome to her beliefs so why try to convince her that Paul's letters are equally applicable to Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua? It's possible Soyeong has come to believe that portions of Paul's letters have unyoked born again Gentile Christians from those commandments of the Mosaic Law that she believes are still in affect today for Gentile Christians.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Apparently she believes Christians would be more righteous if the Holy Spirit had instructed Paul to teach the born again Christians to be yoked to the Mosaic laws. The "beloved" Apostle John does echo Soyeong's trust in keeping His Commands LOUD and CLEAR ...

1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did.​

​

I've said nothing about not believing that portions of Paul's letters apply to Messianic Jews. In Galatians 3:26-27, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, children of Abraham, and heirs to the promise is directly connected to living in obedience to the Torah, so there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to being in Christ. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not children of God, in Matthew 23:23, Christ said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, which was in obedience to the Torah, in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as he did, and in Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, all of the promises were made and were brought about because Abraham walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children to do that, and because his children did that.

It's just that Robert Pate and Soyeong can't agree on what commands. Thus it would be helpful (Galatians 3:28) if they agree to disagree with each one as to what commands they believe are required. Because this never-ending controversy even during the time of the Apostle John is it not possible that John is directing his teaching (via the Holy Spirit) to Messianic Jews and NOT Gentile Believers.

It's not that we can't agree on which commands, but that when it comes to any of God's commands, @Robert Pate does not have faith in God to guide him on how we should live. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ, so @Robert Pate rejects faith in the Gospel. Nothing in 1 John specifies that he was speaking only to Messianic Jews and not to Gentile believers.

It is just as likely that even Cornelius felt obligated to follow commandments ...

He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. (10:2) The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (10:4)​

It's just as real that Soyeong is justified by her trust in the commands that she believes with all her heart are important to her Messianic growth. Likewise it's just as real that Robert Pate is justified by his faith in the gospel (Good News) that the Apostle Paul advanced in his letters to Gentile Christians.

Conclusion: Both the Apostle John and Apostle Paul were led by the Holy Spirit so they both were being led to teach/preach the Gospel to Gentile Believers and Jewish Believers as led by the Holy Spirit.

God is trustworthy, therefore the Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to obediently put our faith in what God has instructed is to put our faith in God, while to refuse to put our faith in what God has instructed is to refuse to put our faith in God, and it is contradictory for someone to have faith in God while refusing to have faith in what He has instructed.

In Acts 2:38, Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, and the Torah is again how his audience knew what sin is. Likewise, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involves bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so their Gospel was on the same page as Christ's Gospel in regard to teaching repentance and obedience to the Torah, so @Robert Pate again reject faith in the Gospel that Paul advanced. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel, but @Robert Pate holds that we are not under any law and that God's law has ended, so he is in direct opposition to having faith in the Gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught. There was not a separate Gospel for Jews than for Gentiles, but rather Jesus commissioned his Gospel to be proclaimed to all nations.

 

[Soyeong]

If you are going to obey the law, you will have to obey every jot and tittle of it. James said if you fail to keep one part of the law, you have failed the whole thing, James 2:10.

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking people who had sinned by showing favoritism and he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying the Torah more consistently. He said nothing about them having the option of choosing whether they are going to obey God's law or to dissuade them from choosing to obey it, so you are completely abusing this poor verse in order to make a point that had nothing to do with what James was speaking about. But you have repeatedly shown that if you can rip a verse out of context to support your position, then you don't really care what is being spoken about in that passage.

Galatians 3:10 says, "Cursed is everyone that does not continue to do everything that is written in the book of the law". God requires perfection.

Nowhere does this verse say anything about perfection or give anyone to option to chose whether they are going to keep God's law, but rather those who refuse to submit to God's law are in the same boat as those who do not continue to obey it. According to this verse, the only way to avoid being cursed is by continuing to do everything in God's law.

This is why Jesus said, "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect". When you go into the judgment you had better be perfect. God only accepts perfection. If he accepted sin that would make him a sinner.

In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus as speaking about having a love that is whole or complete, where we don't just love those who love us, but also love our enemies, which has nothing to do with need to have perfect obedience, so you don't seem to care that you are showing blatant disregard for what Jesus was actually speaking about just as long as you are able to use his words out of context to support your position.

 

[RobertPate]

​

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example, if were it were true that Galatians does not support obedience to the Torah, then it would not support that followers of Christ should follow Christ, which is absurd.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-5 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to anything that God has commanded, so you're completely missing what Galatians is speaking against. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Torah, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against obeying the Torah, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, are according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so they uphold the Torah by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:1-6 as Paul warning us against doing that and warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ.

​

I've said nothing about not believing that portions of Paul's letters apply to Messianic Jews. In Galatians 3:26-27, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, children of Abraham, and heirs to the promise is directly connected to living in obedience to the Torah, so there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to being in Christ. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not children of God, in Matthew 23:23, Christ said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, which was in obedience to the Torah, in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as he did, and in Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, all of the promises were made and were brought about because Abraham walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children to do that, and because his children did that.



It's not that we can't agree on which commands, but that when it comes to any of God's commands, @Robert Pate does not have faith in God to guide him on how we should live. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ, so @Robert Pate rejects faith in the Gospel. Nothing in 1 John specifies that he was speaking only to Messianic Jews and not to Gentile believers.



God is trustworthy, therefore the Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to obediently put our faith in what God has instructed is to put our faith in God, while to refuse to put our faith in what God has instructed is to refuse to put our faith in God, and it is contradictory for someone to have faith in God while refusing to have faith in what He has instructed.

In Acts 2:38, Peter told his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, and the Torah is again how his audience knew what sin is. Likewise, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involves bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so their Gospel was on the same page as Christ's Gospel in regard to teaching repentance and obedience to the Torah, so @Robert Pate again reject faith in the Gospel that Paul advanced. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel, but @Robert Pate holds that we are not under any law and that God's law has ended, so he is in direct opposition to having faith in the Gospel that Jesus, Peter, and Paul taught. There was not a separate Gospel for Jews than for Gentiles, but rather Jesus commissioned his Gospel to be proclaimed to all nations.

You have a law based theology. Here is the problem with having a law based theology, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe" Romans 10:4. It is very apparent that you don't believe Paul.

 

[Soyeong]

You have a law based theology. Here is the problem with having a law based theology, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe" Romans 10:4. It is very apparent that you don't believe Paul.

You have lawless theology and the Bible has quite a bit to say against lawlessness. Romans 9:30-10:4 has nothing to do with Christ being the end of the law, but rather it is speaking about him being the goal of the law.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the goal of the Law, which leads to righteousness for all who have faith in God.

You are the one who does not believe Paul.

 

[RobertPate]

You have lawless theology and the Bible has quite a bit to say against lawlessness. Romans 9:30-10:4 has nothing to do with Christ being the end of the law, but rather it is speaking about him being the goal of the law.

Romans 10:4 Christ is the goal of the Law, which leads to righteousness for all who have faith in God.

You are the one who does not believe Paul.

My KJV Bible does not say "Goal" it says "End". You are subverting God's word.

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion. This is why Paul said, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

God is very angry with you, Romans 4:15.

 

[RobertPate]

I do not believe Jesus is feeling it.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, Ephesians 1:13.

 

[RobertPate]

I am learning, is that the same thing as being born of God?

Yes. When we hear and believe the Gospel (which is the word of God) 1 Peter 1:23, we are born again by the Holy Spirit. This will produce a change in your life.

 

[Soyeong]

My KJV Bible does not say "Goal" it says "End". You are subverting God's word.

Some translations say that Christ is the goal of the law while others like the KJV say that he is the end of the law, so let's discuss which translation we should think is correct rather than you acting like I'm disagreeing with Paul and subverting God's word because I quoted a translation other than the one that you are using.

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion. This is why Paul said, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

Romans 1:17 is quoting Habakuk 2:4, so it was just as true that the righteous shall live by faith under the Mosaic Covenant, so that has nothing to do with ending it.

God is very angry with you, Romans 4:15.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent by returning to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message, so it is absurd to think that God gets angry at those who believe that Gospel and that we're better off refusing to repent. There is not a single example in the Bible of God getting angry at people for repenting by returning to obedience to His law, while there are many examples where God got angry with those who refused to repent, so you are deliberately misapplying Romans 4:15.

 

[Soyeong]

We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, Ephesians 1:13.

Ephesians 1:13 is only speaking about those who are in Christ, who are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so by speaking against obeying God's law, you are speaking against being in Christ.