How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Mark Quayle]

Of course. But then it depends on how what I believe stands up to scrutiny. For instance, lets say someone believes scripture says a certain thing, but the majority of Christianity disagrees with it both currently and historically. In that case we're left with two conclusions. Either that person has special enlightenment and everyone else is and has been blind. Or that person is in error. I feel confident in saying that usually the latter conclusion is correct.

Of course.

 

[Blaise N]

That would mean that they weren’t actually in Christ. False professors aren’t actually in Christ. Jesus said “every branch in Me”.

So you’re basically saying a Christian can fall away and lose salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you’re basically saying a Christian can fall away and lose salvation?

Yes

 

[John Caldwell]

It isn't really surprising, though. Most of Christendom is Calvinistic in some ways and maybe all of Protestantism is, including Arminianism, though not in all their tenets.

Apparently while you were once a Calvinist, you didn't notice that, while they fellowship gladly with one-another for recognized joy in the beliefs they hold in common, they are, some of them, easily at each other's throats for details they consider heretical.

I noticed it. And for a time Arminianism existed as orthodoxed (but extreme) Calvinism (James Arminius never lived to see the day he wasn't a Calvinist).

I agree that much of Protestantism is at least Calvinistic to a degree. Even non-Protestant denominations (like some Mennonite groups) have adopted some Cakvinistic views.

I believe everything is predestined because God is omniscient. The future will unfold as God knew from the beginning it would.

But the heart of Calvinism is their view of the atonement. That is what I reject. And that is what cannot be found in Scripture (although they will tell you their view is its meaning).

 

[Blaise N]

Yes

However the Bible and our dear Lord says that those who are saved he will sustain them until the end.
John 10:28-29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 4:30

 

[Blaise N]

I noticed it. And for a time Arminianism existed as orthodoxed (but extreme) Calvinism (James Arminius never lived to see the day he wasn't a Calvinist).

I agree that much of Protestantism is at least Calvinistic to a degree. Even non-Protestant denominations (like some Mennonite groups) have adopted some Cakvinistic views.

I believe everything is predestined because God is omniscient. The future will unfold as God knew from the beginning it would.

But the heart of Calvinism is their view of the atonement. That is what I reject. And that is what cannot be found in Scripture (although they will tell you their view is its meaning).

I agree,like I said above to the OP,I agree with what Calvin said in his tulip acronym,but I myself don’t dig deep into his other theological thoughts.Ive never heard of the atonement part,hopefully I don’t if it’s not scripturally supported.I mostly agree with Martin Luther’s theologies.

 

[fhansen]

I noticed it. And for a time Arminianism existed as orthodoxed (but extreme) Calvinism (James Arminius never lived to see the day he wasn't a Calvinist).

I agree that much of Protestantism is at least Calvinistic to a degree. Even non-Protestant denominations (like some Mennonite groups) have adopted some Cakvinistic views.

I believe everything is predestined because God is omniscient. The future will unfold as God knew from the beginning it would.

But the heart of Calvinism is their view of the atonement. That is what I reject. And that is what cannot be found in Scripture (although they will tell you their view is its meaning).

It's generally objected to by us "free-willers" that foreknowing and predestining are the same thing. To put it another way, God is capable of making a morally accountable being.

 

[atpollard]

But the heart of Calvinism is their view of the atonement. That is what I reject. And that is what cannot be found in Scripture (although they will tell you their view is its meaning).

Are you referring to "Limited Atonement"?
In my opinion it is the only "TULIP" that must be inferred rather than explicitly stated in scripture (just as the "prevenient grace" of Wesley must be inferred rather than being explicitly stated.) I have personal suspicions on why, but no clear answers revealed from the mind of God.

I asked: "Who besides me did you die for?"
God said: "Nunya."
Confused, I asked: "Nunya?"
God replied clearer: "Yeah, None of your business!"

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don’t think this is correct because the scriptures say “He chose us according to His foreknowledge” and “for those whom He foreknew He predestined”. Predestined means to chooe beforehand so he chose us beforehand according to His choosing us beforehand? That doesn’t make sense. Predestined and foreknowledge are two different things. Your saying they are the same thing but they’re not. The Greek word that is used is prognosis. I’m sure we all know what gnosis means. It means knowledge. Prognosis means forecast or prediction.

Also note that 'according to' and 'in keeping with', both valid uses contextually of the preposition κατὰ can mean the same thing, but often don't. It can also mean, "unto", "toward" or "for" or "against (positionally)" or even "of".

The Greek is pretty plain in most cases, but to your two examples: (1 "He chose us according to His foreknowledge", which I suppose you take from 1 Peter 1:2 contextually, even in the same verse 2, shows choosing for a purpose —"...through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:" and (2
“for those whom He foreknew He predestined” (Romans 8:29) continues with "to be conformed to the image of his son." —purpose

(Haha looking for a different reference, I came on this, from bing: In Acts 2:23 God’s foreknowledge is explicitly causative: Jesus was “delivered over [to death] by the predestinating purpose and foreknowledge of God.” and this: "Also, if God’s choosing us were based on His foreknowledge that we would choose Him, then He really didn’t choose us at all. Rather, He only would have responded to our choosing Him by then choosing us. But this would make God’s plan of salvation depend on the choices of fallen sinners, rather than on His purpose and glory.")

In all cases, the principle acknowledged by Biblical philosophy concerning God, is that, since he is not bound to time, for him to foreknow something is for it to have happened already. Further, since all things come from him, whatever happened, happened by his causation. There is no other creator.

 

[atpollard]

It's generally objected to by us "free-willers" that foreknowing and predestining are the same thing.

As a Calvinist, I agree. However as someone that has read the Bible, Doesn't it claim BOTH? God has "foreknowledge" of all things [1 John 3:20] and God has "predestined" some. [Romans 8:29]

To put it another way, God is capable of making a morally accountable being.

I agree.
He can and did. [Joshua 24:15]
[... but we are flawed: Genesis 3:8, John 3:19-20, Romans 3:10-11] (At least, I am.)

... but God [Ephesians 2:4]​

 

[John Caldwell]

It's generally objected to by us "free-willers" that foreknowing and predestining are the same thing. To put it another way, God is capable of making a morally accountable being.

I know. I just think the topic is kinda a useless dead end. It ends up just philosophy.

I believe God is omniscient and Creator. Just based on these two ideas it can be argued that God predestined everything (knowing what would occur the act of Creation equates to a predetermined end). Men have free will and are morally accountable. They are free moral agents, making their own choices. Yet the future remains set to unfold as God knows it would unfold.

 

[BNR32FAN]

However the Bible and our dear Lord says that those who are saved he will sustain them until the end.
John 10:28-29
Romans 8:38-39
Ephesians 4:30

No that’s not what those verses say at all.

John 10:28-29 is referring to His sheep who hear and follow. It is not referring to those who heard and followed then turned away. The statement “no one is able to snatch them out of The Father’s hand” refers to a third party. It doesn’t say that they can’t turn away nor does it say they can’t be cast away by The Father.

Romans 8:38-39 says nothing can separate us from the love of God. It doesn’t say we can’t lose our salvation. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world. That’s why He sent Jesus to die for the sins of the whole world. It doesn’t say that He only loves those who repent and believe.

Ephesians 4:30 says do not grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you have been sealed unto the day of redemption. Paul continues that message in chapter 5 beginning with the word “Therefore”.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Those who continue to grieve the Holy Spirit have no inheritance in the kingdom of God and are deserving of God’s wrath because they are once again sons of disobedience.

None of these verses or any other verses in the scriptures give any indication that a person can’t lose their salvation. The doctrine of eternal security wasn’t invented until the 16th century. It wasn’t taught in any Christian church for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

 

[John Caldwell]

Are you referring to "Limited Atonement"?
In my opinion it is the only "TULIP" that must be inferred rather than explicitly stated in scripture (just as the "prevenient grace" of Wesley must be inferred rather than being explicitly stated.) I have personal suspicions on why, but no clear answers revealed from the mind of God.

I asked: "Who besides me did you die for?"
God said: "Nunya."
Confused, I asked: "Nunya?"
God replied clearer: "Yeah, None of your business!"

No. I'm referring to understanding the atonement strictly through retributive justice (I believe the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement problematic).

 

[fhansen]

As a Calvinist, I agree. However as someone that has read the Bible, Doesn't it claim BOTH? God has "foreknowledge" of all things [1 John 3:20] and God has "predestined" some. [Romans 8:29]


I agree.
He can and did. [Joshua 24:15]
[... but we are flawed: Genesis 3:8, John 3:19-20, Romans 3:10-11] (At least, I am.)

... but God [Ephesians 2:4]​

We're all flawed-even Adam, relative to his Creator. We're not God. And that "flaw", or relative imperfection, is in most evidence when we think we are God -or that our opinion and choice is as right as or superior to His own, IOW. And that, essentailly is what we're here to learn, that were not Him, and that we need Him. It's a matter of experience in a world now alienated from its Creator with all that implies, combined with revelation, grace, and the time to work it all out. This necessarily involves both God's foreknowledge (He can't help that anyway ), and man's will, beginning in Eden, which is why the whole thing has taken so long, so many centuries of God patiently working with and in humankind to steer us back to Himself. The cross, itself, is glaring testimony to the fact that God appeals to us, by His love, to rectitude; He draws but doesn't force us to bow to it, to Him. He wants us to want it; He wants us to love in return IOW, and that's impossible apart from choice-and grace.

 

[fhansen]

They are free moral agents, making their own choices. Yet the future remains set to unfold as God knows it would unfold.

Absolutely, but I think that part, of man being a free moral agent, and who's will has a real part to play in his eternal destiny, is important -and better for us to know than not to know-and anything beyond that is theological speculation that kind of muddies the waters. Anyway, I believe that, in practice, most Christians live as if what they choose to do-and do- counts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Also note that 'according to' and 'in keeping with', both valid uses contextually of the preposition κατὰ can mean the same thing, but often don't. It can also mean, "unto", "toward" or "for" or "against (positionally)" or even "of".

The Greek is pretty plain in most cases, but to your two examples: (1 "He chose us according to His foreknowledge", which I suppose you take from 1 Peter 1:2 contextually, even in the same verse 2, shows choosing for a purpose —"...through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:" and (2
“for those whom He foreknew He predestined” (Romans 8:29) continues with "to be conformed to the image of his son." —purpose

(Haha looking for a different reference, I came on this, from bing: In Acts 2:23 God’s foreknowledge is explicitly causative: Jesus was “delivered over [to death] by the predestinating purpose and foreknowledge of God.” and this: "Also, if God’s choosing us were based on His foreknowledge that we would choose Him, then He really didn’t choose us at all. Rather, He only would have responded to our choosing Him by then choosing us. But this would make God’s plan of salvation depend on the choices of fallen sinners, rather than on His purpose and glory.")

In all cases, the principle acknowledged by Biblical philosophy concerning God, is that, since he is not bound to time, for him to foreknow something is for it to have happened already. Further, since all things come from him, whatever happened, happened by his causation. There is no other creator.

Yes the foreknowledge is causative, what He foresaw caused His predetermined choice. His predetermined choice was the effect of what He foresaw in the future.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Further, since all things come from him, whatever happened, happened by his causation. There is no other creator.

Ahh so God caused the rape, God caused the murder, God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids, He predestined all that? God is the cause of all sin is what your saying according to that logic. The only thing that keeps God’s hands free of causing sin is free will. If we are all predestined by God to do what He has determined then He is just as guilty for the good as the bad.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I know. I just think the topic is kinda a useless dead end. It ends up just philosophy.

I believe God is omniscient and Creator. Just based on these two ideas it can be argued that God predestined everything (knowing what would occur the act of Creation equates to a predetermined end). Men have free will and are morally accountable. They are free moral agents, making their own choices. Yet the future remains set to unfold as God knows it would unfold.

Our actions are not predestined just because God foreseen them. Foreknowledge is knowing what will happen, predestination is determining what will happen. Knowing what will happen does not make God the cause of what happened when the acting agent has free will outside of God’s control. God does not control anyone even Christians which is precisely why we all still sin after coming to Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

[John Caldwell]

Absolutely, but I think that part, of man being a free moral agent, and who's will has a real part to play in his eternal destiny, is important -and better for us to know than not to know-and anything beyond that is theological speculation that kind of muddies the waters. Anyway, I believe that, in practice, most Christians live as if what they choose to do-and do- counts.

And our actions do count.

 

[John Caldwell]

Our actions are not predestined just because God foreseen them. Foreknowledge is knowing what will happen, predestination is determining what will happen. Knowing what will happen does not make God the cause of what happened when the acting agent has free will outside of God’s control. God does not control anyone even Christians which is precisely why we all still sin after coming to Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit.

The act of Creation determined that everything would happen as God knew it would happen.

That does not mean we do not have free will, or that God controls our choices.