Are there any seminary graduates here? I have questions.

[Rescued One]

When did God create our spirits?

 

[John Owen]

Yes, double seminary degrees.
That is a traditional question, answered by both Creationists vs Traducians.

Creationists say at the moment of conception.
Traducians say your soul/spirit is passed on from your parents.

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks! I'm asking as an ex-Mormon. Thinking back on that, each question creates another. So one of my questions is "What does the Bible say?"

And you are just the person to ask!

 

[John Owen]

The bible is not clear. It hints at it.

Psalm 139
For you formed my inward parts;

you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.

Wonderful are your works;

my soul knows it very well.

My frame was not hidden from you,

when I was being made in secret,

intricately woven in ithe depths of the earth.

book were written, every one of them,

the days that were formed for me,

when as yet there was none of them.

 

[Rescued One]

In Christian theology, traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings. That is, human propagation is of the whole being, both material and immaterial aspects: an individual's soul is derived from the soul of one or both parents. This implies that only the soul of Adam was created directly by God (with Eve's substance, material and immaterial, being taken from out of Adam), in contrast with the idea of creationism of the soul, which holds that all souls are created directly by God.[1]
Traducianism - Wikipedia

Thank you for adding that word to my vocabulary! I LOVE it.

Joseph Smith said that there is no such thing as immaterial matter. God didn't actually create in his view --- he formed everything from pre-existing matter:

So all spirits were made prior to their human bodies and were able to think and choose their compliance with or against God's will. The Mormons despise Calvinism because they don't want to lose their supposed free will. You won't need to convince me of Calvinism --- I'm already convinced. But I want to understand many things and if it has a biblical basis I feel better.

Daniel 7:15
I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

At least you might have an idea about my confusion. I'm thinking what is his spirit? Why is the verse worded that way? Is he a split personality?

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons might say, "I know in my spirit." I don't know how they translate that exactly.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes, double seminary degrees.
That is a traditional question, answered by both Creationists vs Traducians.

Creationists say at the moment of conception.
Traducians say your soul/spirit is passed on from your parents.

So either way, it isn't somethig added at a later date, is it?

 

[John Owen]

So either way, it isn't somethig added at a later date, is it?

No, it happens at Conception.

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you very much. I think I'll take a rest now.

 

[Blade]

When did God create our spirits?

Well neshamah because of the fall was not what He made it to be so I think the answer is when you were born from above, born again

 

[The Liturgist]

In Christian theology, traducianism is a doctrine about the origin of the soul holding that this immaterial aspect is transmitted through natural generation along with the body, the material aspect of human beings. That is, human propagation is of the whole being, both material and immaterial aspects: an individual's soul is derived from the soul of one or both parents. This implies that only the soul of Adam was created directly by God (with Eve's substance, material and immaterial, being taken from out of Adam), in contrast with the idea of creationism of the soul, which holds that all souls are created directly by God.[1]
Traducianism - Wikipedia

Thank you for adding that word to my vocabulary! I LOVE it.

Joseph Smith said that there is no such thing as immaterial matter. God didn't actually create in his view --- he formed everything from pre-existing matter:

So all spirits were made prior to their human bodies and were able to think and choose their compliance with or against God's will. The Mormons despise Calvinism because they don't want to lose their supposed free will. You won't need to convince me of Calvinism --- I'm already convinced. But I want to understand many things and if it has a biblical basis I feel better.

Daniel 7:15
I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

At least you might have an idea about my confusion. I'm thinking what is his spirit? Why is the verse worded that way? Is he a split personality?

Note that Traducianiam is not a view I can find among the Early Church Fathers.

I believe that God creates our soul even though I also believe in evolution (indeed I believe that evolution and the Big Bang are described in Genesis 1, and this is a holy miracle). I hold an MDiv but it is from a liberal institution that is part of one of the most liberal of the mainline churches which in the hubris of youth I thought I could change positively; I am considering consigning the degree to the flames and obtaining a replacement from a better seminary like Andover House, or St. Joseph of Arimathea, or St. Vladimir’s.

 

[TedT]

When did God create our spirits?

Creationists say at the moment of conception.
Traducians say your soul/spirit is passed on from your parents.

First, it is imperative I say I am not a Mormon and have never been a Mormon because I reject the spirit of Mormonism to be a lying spirit and I have been excoriated and denounced by Mormon elders.

BUT these concepts of our creation ignore the concept of our pre-conception existence (PCE theology) which, though ignored, is supported in the bible by over three dozen verses including, as a start:

Job 38:7 about the creation, while the morning stars sang together and ALL the Sons of God shouted for joy? If you are a son of GOD then this verse suggests you were there at the creation of the physical universe singing your heart out at HIS glory! Romans 1:18-20 supports this interpretation since thinking they refer to the study of what has been created and not the creation itself fails on so many levels.

Psalm 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. supports the reprobate to be in Sheol before life on earth or how can they return there upon their death? The KJB falsely translates shuv as to turn into rather than return to keep us from falling into the heresy of believing in our pre-conception existence but since to turn into is largely opposite return in meaning, their eisegesis is apparent and appalling.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” [An explanation of a metaphor cannot contain a metaphor but must contain only the true meaning at face value or it is a mere extension of the metaphor, not an explanation at all.]

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

The seeds of both types are people sown into the world:
- the good but sinful seed are the PEOPLE of the kingdom sown into the world (mankind) by the Son of Man. These are those called HIS elect.

- the weeds are the PEOPLE of the evil one, sown into the world by the devil.

- These two groups are separated into their two groups BEFORE they are sown into the world, not after, that is, not after they exist in this life.

- SOWN cannot mean to create because the devil does this sowing also so it must have its ordinary meaning of "to move from a place of storage to a place of growth..." which also reinforces the idea that not only did we have a life in Sheol prior to our life in the world but also that we became separated into two groups, sinful elect and demonic non-elect in Sheol.

Some of the points that are not covered here but which I also contend for are:
- that the separation into the two groups of elect and non-elect as well as the sinful elect being separated from the holy elect was by the everyone's free will decisions made prior to the election to salvation or the condemnation to perdition.

- that our choices to be evil in HIS sight are the base for all HIS punishments of the elect sinners and the judgments upon the non-elect sinners.

 

[Rescued One]

I am a Bible believer but I'm not interested in your comments. What your agenda is, I don't know.

 

[Rescued One]

Moderators, please close this thread. I'm not interested in a debate.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

Per the OP's request:

MOD HAT OFF​