How can there be free will in heaven?

[BNR32FAN]

No. You are a sinner because you are a descendant of Adam after he allowed sin in. Every man is born with the sin nature. That is why you must be born again. Read John 3.

Yes we all inherited Adam’s sinful nature but we all had the same choice he did, to sin or to obey.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You added the word "forced". Not me.

...But this is a conversation about why we won't desire the pleasures of sinfulness in heaven! And that is because our bodies, will rise from the dead "rebuilt", without the attachments of original sin (sin nature). And so there will be no desire for sin from within! Also, there will be no surrounding influences from the environment of heaven. Sin does not exist there!

It’s my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox Church believes that we might undergo a purification of our sinful nature before entering heaven. I think it’s a possibility.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think while we would have free choice and a theoretical possibility of sinning, we wouldn't, for a number of reasons:

1. Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God would be so close and manifest to us that we wouldn't want any other substitute to a close relationship with them. John 17:3 The fact that we would know God so personally is eternal life, and we wouldn't want it any other way. There are a few definitions of sin, but it basically comes down to not doing God's will. If we can see and talk to him face-to-face everyday, God's will for us would be plain.
   
2. There would be such community in Heaven - no more evil people and no more fear of being hurt by others
   
3. The Devil & his cohorts would be in the Lake of Fire
4. Our bodies would be spiritual, and the sinful flesh is no more
5. I believe we will have work and hobbies in Heaven too, but the work won't be with toil and sweat.

There might not be any temptation in heaven because there’s nothing to be tempted with. No reason to be jealous, no reason to be angry, no reason for hate, no reason to fear.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have to say again there is nowhere in scripture does it say Adam and Eve were created perfect - just like it's nowhere in Scripture that Cain married his sister - now that is an assumption and of teachings of most men throughout generations also.

“and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:26‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If every nation of mankind came from Adam how could Cain have married someone who was not a descendant of Adam?

 

[Jamdoc]

So we lose our natural instincts?

I don't think entirely, I mean some instincts and drives were deliberately created by God and are meant to be things we take pleasure in, Why do you think Jesus gave examples of banquets and feasts when talking about heaven?
think about Genesis 1 and 2, think about that, that is what God intended for the world, and what He wanted to create.

Think about a loving God creating this, creating people, and then telling them "I give all this to you, have dominion over it, take care of my creation, but enjoy it" Things like the natural instinct to eat, and finding eating pleasurable, or drinking, and finding drinking refreshing, sleeping, and finding sleep refreshing (even God rested for the purpose of refreshment), even the sex drive, was created by God to be a good thing, and to be enjoyed, in the proper God given context.

What's going to be lost is primarily selfishness.
I dunno maybe I'm crazy, maybe it's all supposed to be worship of God and just falling on our faces and singing and being good little praise robots.. as awful of an eternity as that would be.

But I don't think GOD is that selfish or would enjoy that. Genesis 1 and 2 point to a God that made a place, made people and told them to enjoy it. It's like a gift, we just messed that gift up, it doesn't mean that God's taking that gift away, but rather restoring it. The one thing different, the one thing that seems explicitly taken away that is a good thing, is marriage, which could also mean sex but.. I don't know 100%.
It's based on a single verse, and usually used out of context.
But it is plainly stated, by Jesus
so.. can't throw it out either.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not according to Peter.

2 Peter 1:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Yeah well, as much as the Holy Spirit moves through Peter, he is also a man, and not perfect.
the instruction to "rise, kill and eat" doesn't exactly scream "Oh this is about preaching to Gentiles", not in the context that the Lord gave the vision.

But as Peter did not load the gentiles with the Kosher dietary laws (aside from strangled things or blood), and Paul says that all creatures are good and nothing to be refused if received in thanksgiving, sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.
So I think he understood God's making all animals clean vision later.

Gotta remember, Peter was Jewish, and the idea of God letting people eat swine was a repulsive idea he'd at first reject. But Peter stopped trying to Judaize the gentiles with all the Jewish laws.

 

[Clare73]

IT is according to scripture when it comes to Lev 11.

2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘These are the creatures which you may eat from all the animals that are on the earth.

2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. 4 Nevertheless these you shall not eat

29 These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,

30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
...

39 ‘And if any animal which you may eat dies, he who touches its carcass shall be unclean until evening.
39 ‘Also if one of the animals dies which you have for food, the one who touches its carcass becomes unclean until evening

46 ‘This is the law of the animals and the birds and every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps on the earth, 47 to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.’ ”

46 This is the law regarding the animal and the bird, and every living thing that moves in the waters and everything that swarms on the earth, 47 to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean, and between the edible creature and the creature which is not to be eaten.

==============

In Lev 11 even a clean animal is "not to be eaten" if it dies of itself and you simply come upon the carcass

And how does simply waiting until evening remove the "health hazard" of touching an unclean animal?

 

[Clare73]

Yeah what did you expect? Did you expect them to sin before they were created?
Of course they were created sinless, everyone is.

Not according to Ephesians 2:3, Romans 5:18.

 

[Clare73]

“but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:42-44‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Neither of these mention anything about Adam & Eve being created perfect. Not in the sense that they couldn’t sin. They were created having never sinned before because it’s pretty impossible to sin before your created.

"Without sin" is perfection.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not according to Ephesians 2:3, Romans 5:18.

Perhaps not according to your translation but according to the Greek Interlinear Bible there’s nothing there to suggest that people have sinned before or during birth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not according to Ephesians 2:3, Romans 5:18.

What sin has a newborn committed?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

 

[BobRyan]

And how does simply waiting until evening remove the "health hazard" of touching an unclean animal?

Because the clean animal (in this case) that "dies of itself" (and so is deemed unclean ) is not radio active - rather it just has some bad bacteria etc that needs to be washed off and die --- when it comes to what might still be on your skin or clothes.

That's the health issue.

By contrast - notice that the text does not say you can eat a rat, cat or bat -- then wait until evening and it won't do you any harm.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Not according to Peter.

2 Peter 1:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Yeah well, as much as the Holy Spirit moves through Peter, he is also a man, and not perfect.

But God is perfect and all powerful and fully capable as Peter points out -- of getting His point across infallibly in scripture. So the issue does not rest on man, it rests on God when it comes to scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

But as Peter did not load the gentiles with the Kosher dietary laws (aside from strangled things or blood), and Paul says that all creatures are good and nothing to be refused if received in thanksgiving, sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.
So I think he understood God's making all animals clean vision later.

Gotta remember, Peter was Jewish, and the idea of God letting people eat swine was a repulsive idea he'd at first reject. But Peter stopped trying to Judaize the gentiles with all the Jewish laws.

Peter never says to eat rats, cats , dogs, bats or "swine" in his statements in scripture on this point. Rather he says the point was about "calling no MAN unclean"... He leaves the rats and bats as they were --- unclean.

And in Acts 15 neither Peter nor anyone else in leadership mentions --
1. Do not take God's name in vain Ex 20:7
2. Do not murder Ex 20
3. Love God with all your heart Deut 6:4

And this is not a sign that these commands do not apply to gentiles -- as we all know.

 

[BobRyan]

Gotta remember, Peter was Jewish, and the idea of God letting people eat swine was a repulsive idea he'd at first reject.

1. There is no "at first rejected then later ate rats" text in Acts for Peter.
2. Peter tells Jesus "no" flat out in Matt 16 when Jesus said that He as the Messiah would die - this was not what the Jews were expecting. And Christ hammers him on the spot for that rejection of command. This is exactly what DOES NOT happen in Acts. Rather Peter tells his students that the lesson was about not calling humans unclean. Luke seems to agree.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because the clean animal (in this case) that "dies of itself" (and so is deemed unclean ) is not radio active - rather it just has some bad bacteria etc that needs to be washed off and die --- when it comes to what might still be on your skin or clothes.

That's the health issue.

By contrast - notice that the text does not say you can eat a rat, cat or bat -- then wait until evening and it won't do you any harm.

Actually, rat is quite delicious. I will gladly take my chances eating a well-cooked wild rat from a rice field long before touching anyone with the Ebola virus and waiting for sundown in order to avoid infection.

In all honesty, the Old Testament is not a scientific manual. Although, undoubtedly, God knew about the germ theory of disease transmission, apparently He did not want to provide that tidbit of information to folks in those days.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, rat is quite delicious. I will gladly take my chances eating a well-cooked wild rat

I don't think there is anything in scripture (not even in Lev 11) that says that rat cannot be made to suit a certain person's "taste". Nothing at all is said in that chapter about "taste".

But what does this have to do with "free will in heaven"??

 

[BobRyan]

In all honesty, the Old Testament is not a scientific manual.

In all honesty it is scripture, inspired by God according to 2 Tim 3:15-16. And as it turns out "God" does not need to attend one of mankind's "science" classes to know a thing or two about what is or is not fact.

But what does this have to do with "free will in heaven"??

 

[bbbbbbb]

In all honesty it is scripture, inspired by God according to 2 Tim 3:15-16. And as it turns out "God" does not need to attend one of mankind's "science" classes to know a thing or two about what is or is not fact.

The simple reality, of course, is that there are multitudes of facts that we take for granted that are not mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible. Then, there are aspects of life which are addressed in the Bible which we reject. For example, we have abolished slavery even though the Bible goes into great detail about its institution and administration. We reject polygamy and concubinage, even though it was practiced not only in society in general, but by the God-ordained kings of Israel and Judah, including David and Solomon, as well as the patriarchs, including Abraham. We reject incest, even though the Bible permits first cousins to marry each other as long as they are in the same tribe. Marriage outside of one's tribe is forbidden in the Bible, but the entire concept is totally unknown today.