“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness.”

[Gup20]

I find it interesting that the Galatians were Jews. My faith involves rejecting the epistles of Paul in favour of the teaching of Christ.

The word "covenant" has it's origin in witchcraft and from there to English law as a form of contract. When "covenant" is used as a simile for the pacts God made with Israel, the word "blood" needs to qualify covenant so people won't forget how serious the contract is.

The covenant where Moses was mediator and the covenant where Jesus is mediator, among other things, enable the union between God and man resulting in one God, one King, one Israel, one kingdom , one Law; not two of everything.

The verses you quote are straw man arguments attempting to justify changing the covenant.

The Abrahamic covenant was made 430 years before The Law was given to Moses, so it stands APART FROM and OUTSIDE OF the Law. The Torah testifies to this covenant, but cannot modify or annul it. Once ratified (as it was in Genesis 15), the covenant of faith cannot be added to.

[Gal 3:14-18 NASB20] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers [and sisters,] I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [one would in referring] to many, but [rather] as [in referring] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

The Law didn't exist when God made this covenant with Abraham.

See in Gal 3:16, Paul tells us that the "seed" spoken of to Abraham was Jesus.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB20] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness.​

[Gen 17:4-8 NASB20] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall you be named Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you. 8 "And I will give to you and to your seed after you the land where you live as a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."​

Clearly the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith predates The Law of Moses and stands apart from it.

[Heb 13:20 NASB20] 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,​

 

[fhansen]

“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness.”

This comment will be read by some as "the alternative to justification by obedience to the law is grace"
This group forget Abraham was justified through faith not the law, as in his time the law was not there.

If "law" means the definition of behaviour that will be punished, and lawlessness means no behaviour is punished, they are opposites.

Grace for some means ignoring and forgiving any behaviour good or bad, and giving rewards to people based of their faith belief. Some would go so far as to say it is only faith expression at some point in their life, and others they cannot define was the decision is, it is once done cannot be undone.

Of this group I have tried to get a definition of what determines a faith belief. Is it "I believe in God" or "I believe Jesus is God" or "Jesus is my Lord" or "Jesus saved me through the cross"

How much must be understood and expressed to get the seal. Some have said no measuring anything the believer does is works, therefore it is all Gods work, except that is universalism, or just a lottery.

For others Grace is forgiving peoples sin because of faith in Jesus and the death on the cross, which opens to the door to love and a faithful walk. This grace is fantastic because it gives us all a new start and a road to life that works.

The phrase alternative seems to be two things that are the same. So an alternative to ice cream is a dairy free option. With this meaning lawlessness is the opposite to the law.

God bless you

I like your post-thank you. It goes far in outlining some of the confusion surrounding the concepts of faith, grace, and righteousness and the relationship between them.

 

[Lulav]

Jeremiah refers to a new covenant to be made with Israel and Judah; remember, there was about a hundred initially who entered int the New covenant.

Yes, those present at Pentecost or Shavuot (which is the 50th day and the day that the LORD met his people at the mountain and gave the his wedding covenant.
All those present on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem (it is one of the pilgrim feasts) were all Jews, from all over the known world come to Jerusalem because it was a commandment to do so.

The law wasn’t given until 430 years after Abraham’s everlasting covenant of faith. If Abraham followed laws, it wasn’t The Law of Moses, for by the Law of Moses will no flesh be justified.

Not a corporate law given to a nation. Remember the human race started with two people. There must have been verbal laws given to them and their children or why would God say to Cain:
"7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

The Law didn't exist when God made this covenant with Abraham.

Because Abraham was one man, the founder of Israel, but the LORD had laws even just for him. There were those that were passed down from Adam and then from Noah etc and Abraham was given them too. Torah has existed since the beginning.


mm

Romans 5:13-14 (NASB20) 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about;

Romans 3:28 (NASB20)
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Yet James does not agree with that.

Js 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The everlasting covenant of faith in the gospel (gospel means “good news”) given to Abraham is how we are all justified as righteous.

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[Gup20]

Not a corporate law given to a nation. Remember the human race started with two people. There must have been verbal laws given to them and their children or why would God say to Cain:
"7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Sure... though the one "law" we know about was "do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Surly Cain and Able knew some of what God would want when they made their offerings. But this was not a "law" and to be absolutely, clear, it is not Torah. What we cannot do is pretend to know what these oral traditions were since they are not given in Torah. Since they are not explicitly given, we can neither assume they are or are not included in Torah.

Because Abraham was one man, the founder of Israel, but the LORD had laws even just for him. There were those that were passed down from Adam and then from Noah etc and Abraham was given them too. Torah has existed since the beginning.


mm

Romans 5:13-14 (NASB20) 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

"Until the law" sin was in the world. That sin came into the world when Adam broke the one law - do not eat. Paul defines when the law came -- Between Adam and Moses -- when Moses was given the law. Sin is not counted against anyone until The Law of Moses. This is why Paul says:

[Rom 4:13-16 NASB20] 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, then faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

Yet James does not agree with that.

Js 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.



James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Notice it says "faith without works is dead" and not "righteousness without works is dead." Works verifies the veracity of faith... faith alone qualifies or disqualifies one for righteousness.

Additionally, notice what Romans 4 says about the timing of the righteousness given to Abraham:

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB20] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

Notice Abraham was made righteous for his faith BEFORE he was circumcised. This was before Isaac was born! Abraham's righteousness was not dependent on waiting for him to sacrifice Isaac many years later. James says: "knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance." So when James is talking about "faith without works is dead" he's talking about testing faith so that it produces endurance.

[Heb 10:35-39 NASB20] 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. 37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. 38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. 39 But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith for the safekeeping of the soul.

[Heb 6:12-13 NASB20] 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and endurance inherit the promises. 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear an oath by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “INDEED I WILL GREATLY BLESS YOU AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU.”​

This makes sense... if qualification as a descendant is based on having the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had, then you should have a faith than endures so that you continue to be qualified.

 

[sparow]

The Abrahamic covenant was made 430 years before The Law was given to Moses, so it stands APART FROM and OUTSIDE OF the Law. The Torah testifies to this covenant, but cannot modify or annul it. Once ratified (as it was in Genesis 15), the covenant of faith cannot be added to.

[Gal 3:14-18 NASB20] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brothers [and sisters,] I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [one would in referring] to many, but [rather] as [in referring] to one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

The Law didn't exist when God made this covenant with Abraham.

See in Gal 3:16, Paul tells us that the "seed" spoken of to Abraham was Jesus.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB20] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness.​

[Gen 17:4-8 NASB20] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall you be named Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you. 8 "And I will give to you and to your seed after you the land where you live as a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."​

Clearly the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith predates The Law of Moses and stands apart from it.

[Heb 13:20 NASB20] 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [that is,] Jesus our Lord,​

You seem to be both Dispensational and literal, I am neither. Paul was intelligent and quoted scripture appended to his own opinions and debate; his private conversations which you misuse.

I think it was Gen 15:6 where Moses said, Abraham was counted righteous because He believed in God; you assume had Abraham committed murder, adultery and vanity or had not respected his parents, had bowed to Idols, had been a thief, these would not be counted as un-righteousness; you may also assume Cain did not commit murder and that Noah did not make a distinction between clean and unclean animals.

 

[Gup20]

You seem to be both Dispensational and literal, I am neither. Paul was intelligent and quoted scripture appended to his own opinions and debate; his private conversations which you misuse.

I think it was Gen 15:6 where Moses said, Abraham was counted righteous because He believed in God; you assume had Abraham committed murder, adultery and vanity or had not respected his parents, had bowed to Idols, had been a thief, these would not be counted as un-righteousness; you may also assume Cain did not commit murder and that Noah did not make a distinction between clean and unclean animals.

I'm not really sure what "dispensational" is... I haven't looked into much extra-Biblical literature. A quick search says it is a system of theology that believes in a bunch of "dispensations" whatever that is... I dunno about any of that. What I see in the Bible is that God orchestrates the history of Israel from beginning to end both in both a literal sense and in a simultaneous allegorical sense as a sort of parable for the world.

[Hos 12:10 NASB20] 10 I have also spoken to the prophets, And I provided many visions, And through the prophets I spoke in parables.​

I've never attended a church that teaches what I'm talking about... these are things I've read for myself in my own studies of the Bible.

We know Abraham bore false witness when he lied and said Sarah was his sister. But we also know The Law of Moses didn't exist when God made His covenant with Abraham, and that, while the Torah testifies of the Abrahamic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant was ratified 430 years before the Law of Moses was given and so it stands apart from and outside of the Torah.

Just as we become descendants of Abraham by doing what he did (having faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ) so too God promised Sarah to raise up adopted descendants as well.

[Gen 17:15-16 NASB20] 15 Then God said to Abraham, "As for your wife Sarai, you shall not call her [by] the name Sarai, but Sarah [shall be] her name. 16 "I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother of] nations; kings of peoples will come from her."​

[1Pe 3:5-6 NASB20] 5 For in this way the holy women of former times, who hoped in God, also used to adorn themselves, being subject to their own husbands, 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord; and you have proved to be her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

[Isa 54:1 NASB20] 1 "Shout for joy, infertile one, you who have not given birth [to any child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.
​

Jesus Himself spoke of those who were qualified as descendants because they believed in Him the same way Abraham did.

[Jhn 8:31-44, 56, 58 NASB20] 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, [then] you are truly My disciples; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how [is it that] You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 "Now the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son sets you free, you really will be free. 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak of the things which I have seen with [My] Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from [your] father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? [It is] because you cannot listen to My word. 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] because he is a liar and the father of lies. ... 56 "Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw [it] and rejoiced." ... 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

[Rom 10:17 NASB20] 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
​

So faith comes by hearing, and Jesus says they are not qualified as descendants of Abraham and thereby inheritors of being set free because they wouldn't hear His word. Instead, their unbelief qualified them as children of the devil. He later goes on to say in verse 56 that Abraham did have faith in Him.

Here we see Jesus refer to them as the descendants of Abraham in both a literal sense and an allegorical/figurative sense. They were physical descendants, but not spiritual descendants and inheritors of the promise the way they would be if they had faith in Him like Abraham did.

 

[Lulav]

Sure... though the one "law" we know about was "do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Surly Cain and Able knew some of what God would want when they made their offerings. But this was not a "law" and to be absolutely, clear, it is not Torah. What we cannot do is pretend to know what these oral traditions were since they are not given in Torah. Since they are not explicitly given, we can neither assume they are or are not included in Torah.

They most assuredly were Torah.

Torah literally translates as 'Instructions'.

There are only about 38,000 words used to give the first book of the bible a overview of how God's people began. And those 38,000+ words cover over 2,200 years, more than the whole rest of the bible (not counting eternity of course or the millennium).

If God is recorded as saying to Isaac that his father obeyed his voice, his commandments and his instructions we are not just assuming nor should we call it tradition.

Adam was actually given more than one instruction.

1. And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
   
2. Be fruitful, and multiply, and
3. replenish the earth, and
4. subdue it and
   
5. have dominion over the fish of the sea
6. and over the fowl of the air,
7. and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
   
8. Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And that's just in the first chapter.

 

[Lulav]

"Until the law" sin was in the world. That sin came into the world when Adam broke the one law - do not eat. Paul defines when the law came -- Between Adam and Moses -- when Moses was given the law. Sin is not counted against anyone until The Law of Moses.

So there was no more sin after the law was given?
Doesn't that conflict with this?
"sin is the transgression of the law"

The Law came between Adam and Moses?
Not with Moses?
If sin is not counted against anyone until Moses then why was Cain sent away?

And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
​

His punishment - Hebrew word 'avon'
Meaning: punishment for iniquity

We know Abraham bore false witness when he lied and said Sarah was his sister.

1. He did not bear false witness
2. He did not lie
3. Sara was his sister and his wife.

Why are you not accusing Sarah as well?

Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.”
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’

Then Abimelech said to Abraham, “What did you have in view, that you have done this thing?” 11 And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. 12 But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.” ’​

As you can see you have made a false accusation. One I might add on the man and woman who brought forth the promised child the one from who the Messiah would come. The one you said was righteous without law?

 

[Gup20]

They most assuredly were Torah.

Torah literally translates as 'Instructions'.

There are only about 38,000 words used to give the first book of the bible a overview of how God's people began. And those 38,000+ words cover over 2,200 years, more than the whole rest of the bible (not counting eternity of course or the millennium).

If God is recorded as saying to Isaac that his father obeyed his voice, his commandments and his instructions we are not just assuming nor should we call it tradition.

Adam was actually given more than one instruction.

1. And God blessed them, and God said unto them,
   
2. Be fruitful, and multiply, and
3. replenish the earth, and
4. subdue it and
   
5. have dominion over the fish of the sea
6. and over the fowl of the air,
7. and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
   
8. Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

And that's just in the first chapter.

So it is the Law of Abraham? Or the Law of Adam? Or the Law of Cain? Which of these replaces the Law of Moses? Abraham's blood covenant was ratified in Genesis 15... once ratified it can no longer have conditions added to it ... so I'm curious what exactly is the Law of Abraham and which of the ~ 613 statutes of the Law of Moses are specifically included and which are not?

Are you saying there was a progressive revelation of God's laws and maybe 15 to 20 of the 613 had been revealed by Abraham's day and so he was only responsible for obeying the ones which had been revealed by that point? Maybe "don't murder" and "you can eat plants" ... but maybe "don't bear false witness" and "don't commit adultery" wasn't included yet?

[Deu 27:26 NASB20] 26 'Cursed is [anyone] who does not fulfill the words of this Law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'​

The reason I ask is because clearly Abraham did break some provisions of the Law of Moses (for example lying about Sarah being his sister) which according to the law of Moses means he was cursed. Without a temple or tabernacle, or atonement, how could Abraham be absolved of the curse? Unless you are saying he wasn't required to follow the Law of Moses in its entirety because it hadn't been given yet. Further, that Adam was cursed with a universal judgement inherited by his offspring. How is that overcome for Abraham to be made righteous without a blood sacrifice?

 

[Lulav]

The reason I ask is because clearly Abraham did break some provisions of the Law of Moses (for example lying about Sarah being his sister) which according to the law of Moses means he was cursed.

Please read post #168 It is apparent you didn't.

 

[Gup20]

So there was no more sin after the law was given?
Doesn't that conflict with this?
"sin is the transgression of the law"

The Law came between Adam and Moses?
Not with Moses?

I was not very clear... in between the "--" I was quoting Paul when he said:

[Rom 5:12-15 NASB20] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against [anyone] when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation [committed] by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.​

The law was given (and came into the world) through Moses. Paul's point was that sin, while in the world, is not counted against them when no law had yet been given to prohibit it. For example, Cain and Able married their sisters (since all women in the world were their sisters), but until the law of Moses that was not forbidden. So would this 'sin' be counted against them?

If sin is not counted against anyone until Moses then why was Cain sent away?

And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
​

His punishment - Hebrew word 'avon'
Meaning: punishment for iniquity

God had never told them that murder was wrong... there had never been a murder, and no human had ever died (that we know of) so could Cain have known that his actions would result in the death of Able? We know that God took action to punish Cain thereby establishing that murder was wrong... but noting that Able's blood cried out from the ground for justice.

God didn't kill Cain for murdering his brother. IN fact:

[Gen 4:15 NASB20] 15 So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him seven times [as much.]" And the LORD placed a mark on Cain, so that no one finding him would kill him.​

Is this the punishment the Law of Moses prescribes for murderers?

1. He did not bear false witness
2. He did not lie
3. Sara was his sister and his wife.

Why are you not accusing Sarah as well?

Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.”
4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, “Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5 Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she, even she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’

Then Abimelech said to Abraham, “What did you have in view, that you have done this thing?” 11 And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. 12 But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, that I said to her, ‘This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, “He is my brother.” ’​

As you can see you have made a false accusation. One I might add on the man and woman who brought forth the promised child the one from who the Messiah would come. The one you said was righteous without law?

He intentionally deceived him. To me, that is a lie. Also, doesn't the Law of Moses forbid one from marrying their sister?

[Lev 18:9 NASB20] 9 '[As for] the nakedness of your sister, [either] your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, [whether] born in the household or born outside [the household,] you shall not uncover their nakedness.​

Abraham's righteousness was by faith in the gospel, not through the law. This is the point I'm trying to get you to see. Except for the Messiah, every human being is a sinner. While He never sinned, the Messiah did have the sin of the world laid upon him, the substitutionary atonement. As such, he couldn't overcome that sin without some mechanism.

The Law is incapable of bringing a dead man back to life. It can only convict of sin. The Abrahamic covenant, on the other hand, is capable of making righteous in spite of sin and the law as the righteousness is based on faith, not works of the law. The promises to Abraham are essentially a promise of life where there is no life (a barren womb).

[Gal 3:21-22 NASB20] 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[Rom 4:16-17 NASB20] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

 

[Lulav]

I was not very clear... in between the "--" I was quoting Paul when he said:

[Rom 5:12-15 NASB20] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against [anyone] when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation [committed] by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.​

The law was given (and came into the world) through Moses. Paul's point was that sin, while in the world, is not counted against them when no law had yet been given to prohibit it. For example, Cain and Able married their sisters (since all women in the world were their sisters), but until the law of Moses that was not forbidden. So would this 'sin' be counted against them?


God had never told them that murder was wrong... there had never been a murder, and no human had ever died (that we know of) so could Cain have known that his actions would result in the death of Able? We know that God took action to punish Cain thereby establishing that murder was wrong... but noting that Able's blood cried out from the ground for justice.

God didn't kill Cain for murdering his brother. IN fact:

[Gen 4:15 NASB20] 15 So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him seven times [as much.]" And the LORD placed a mark on Cain, so that no one finding him would kill him.​

Is this the punishment the Law of Moses prescribes for murderers?


He intentionally deceived him. To me, that is a lie. Also, doesn't the Law of Moses forbid one from marrying their sister?

[Lev 18:9 NASB20] 9 '[As for] the nakedness of your sister, [either] your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, [whether] born in the household or born outside [the household,] you shall not uncover their nakedness.​

Abraham's righteousness was by faith in the gospel, not through the law. This is the point I'm trying to get you to see. Except for the Messiah, every human being is a sinner. While He never sinned, the Messiah did have the sin of the world laid upon him, the substitutionary atonement. As such, he couldn't overcome that sin without some mechanism.

The Law is incapable of bringing a dead man back to life. It can only convict of sin. The Abrahamic covenant, on the other hand, is capable of making righteous in spite of sin and the law as the righteousness is based on faith, not works of the law. The promises to Abraham are essentially a promise of life where there is no life (a barren womb).

[Gal 3:21-22 NASB20] 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[Rom 4:16-17 NASB20] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

"For example, Cain and Able married their sisters (since all women in the world were their sisters), but until the law of Moses that was not forbidden. So would this 'sin' be counted against them?"

​

We have no record of Able marrying anyone. Cain, after he killed his brother Married. We have his genealogy on record.
Since this was the only way to propagate the human race that's the only choice they had. Back then the bloodlines were clean, untainted.

"God had never told them that murder was wrong... there had never been a murder, and no human had ever died (that we know of) so could Cain have known that his actions would result in the death of Able?

​

Yes, he was aware of what he did was wrong. When Able brought an acceptable sacrifice to the LORD and Cain didn't he got very angry. The Lord warned him:

'He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell'​

So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”​

Anger is the beginning of sin, and that anger Cain felt that his brothers offering was acceptable and his was not led to murder. If he had not stayed angry with his brother he would not have given in to the sin lying at the door.

I think Paul understood that lesson as he said: "Be angry and do not sin"

We know that God took action to punish Cain thereby establishing that murder was wrong... but noting that Able's blood cried out from the ground for justice.
God didn't kill Cain for murdering his brother. "

​

NO, actually he did worse, that is why Cain said that his punishment (for killing his brother) was exile, away from his family AND from God himself. This was why it was more than he could bear.

"Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face"​

He intentionally deceived him. To me, that is a lie. Also, doesn't the Law of Moses forbid one from marrying their sister?

Didn't you read the passages I quoted? Sarah WAS Abrahams' sister. Please stop calling him a liar. Did God hold this against him?

Again, the lines were more pure at that time. After the 400+ years in Egypt, not so much so that ordinance was given to prevent birth defects.

So,In your opinion, what was the purpose of giving the Law, of God gathering a people who would be obedient to him and raise awareness of who he is among the heathens?

 

[Gup20]

Didn't you read the passages I quoted? Sarah WAS Abrahams' sister. Please stop calling him a liar. Did God hold this against him?

Again, the lines were more pure at that time. After the 400+ years in Egypt, not so much so that ordinance was given to prevent birth defects.

So,In your opinion, what was the purpose of giving the Law, of God gathering a people who would be obedient to him and raise awareness of who he is among the heathens?

The lie wasn’t that she was his sister… the lie was that she was only his sister and she wasn’t his wife which is what Abraham clearly meant to covey out of his fear that he would be killed. And it wasn’t the first time he did this lie.

Genesis 12:11-13 (NASB20) 11 It came about, when he was approaching Egypt, that he said to his wife Sarai, “See now, I know that you are a beautiful woman; 12 and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 “Please say that you are my sister so that it may go well for me because of you, and that I may live on account of you.”​

Genesis 12:18-19 (NASB20) 18 Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this that you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 “Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for myself as a wife? Now then, here is your wife, take her and go!”​

Sarah was commanded by her husband to lie about being his wife, so she doesn’t bare the blame. I agree as to why the law of Moses introduced the law of not marrying your close relations, but the point is that both examples represented differences in the “oral law” compared to the law of Moses which is clear evidence that they were not one in the same.

The purpose of the law was to provide a means of cleansing Israel to endure the presence of God, to bring His Word into the earth, to point man to Christ, their only hope for life, and to provide a legal framework for the substitutionary atonement of Christ. It also provided a way to verify the veracity of Christ’s righteousness so that it could be given to the Abrahamic covenant.

Don’t misunderstand - Christ is the bridge between the Abrahamic covenant & the Mosaic covenant. Christ satisfies the demands of the law so that righteousness my be given to the believer through the Abrahamic covenant of faith. In doing so, not one jot or tittle in the law is diminished and it is completely fulfilled.

 

[sparow]

I'm not really sure what "dispensational" is... I haven't looked into much extra-Biblical literature. A quick search says it is a system of theology that believes in a bunch of "dispensations" whatever that is... I dunno about any of that. What I see in the Bible is that God orchestrates the history of Israel from beginning to end both in both a literal sense and in a simultaneous allegorical sense as a sort of parable for the world.

[Hos 12:10 NASB20] 10 I have also spoken to the prophets, And I provided many visions, And through the prophets I spoke in parables.​

I've never attended a church that teaches what I'm talking about... these are things I've read for myself in my own studies of the Bible.

We know Abraham bore false witness when he lied and said Sarah was his sister. But we also know The Law of Moses didn't exist when God made His covenant with Abraham, and that, while the Torah testifies of the Abrahamic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant was ratified 430 years before the Law of Moses was given and so it stands apart from and outside of the Torah.

Just as we become descendants of Abraham by doing what he did (having faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ) so too God promised Sarah to raise up adopted descendants as well.

[Gen 17:15-16 NASB20] 15 Then God said to Abraham, "As for your wife Sarai, you shall not call her [by] the name Sarai, but Sarah [shall be] her name. 16 "I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be [a mother of] nations; kings of peoples will come from her."​

[1Pe 3:5-6 NASB20] 5 For in this way the holy women of former times, who hoped in God, also used to adorn themselves, being subject to their own husbands, 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord; and you have proved to be her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

[Isa 54:1 NASB20] 1 "Shout for joy, infertile one, you who have not given birth [to any child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.
​

Jesus Himself spoke of those who were qualified as descendants because they believed in Him the same way Abraham did.

[Jhn 8:31-44, 56, 58 NASB20] 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, [then] you are truly My disciples; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how [is it that] You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 "Now the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son sets you free, you really will be free. 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak of the things which I have seen with [My] Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from [your] father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? [It is] because you cannot listen to My word. 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] because he is a liar and the father of lies. ... 56 "Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw [it] and rejoiced." ... 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

[Rom 10:17 NASB20] 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
​

So faith comes by hearing, and Jesus says they are not qualified as descendants of Abraham and thereby inheritors of being set free because they wouldn't hear His word. Instead, their unbelief qualified them as children of the devil. He later goes on to say in verse 56 that Abraham did have faith in Him.

Here we see Jesus refer to them as the descendants of Abraham in both a literal sense and an allegorical/figurative sense. They were physical descendants, but not spiritual descendants and inheritors of the promise the way they would be if they had faith in Him like Abraham did.

I haven't heard of Dispensationalism for a long time, speaking in tongues and the rapture were their marks. I attended a Dispensationalism church when I was innocent and naive, and I only learned about Dispensationalism when I moved onto an other church.

Dispensationalism is a religious system of dividing scripture into dispensations, or sections, with unique narratives misusing scripture; while using English, they redefine jargon in an Orwellian manner such that you think you disagree but in truth you have not understood what they have said. Intrinsic to their narratives is Ribera's futurism, a hypothetical presented by the Jesuit Ribera at the Council of Trent. I say hypothetical because the Catholic Church doesn't seem to have adopted it, it only was intended to show there was other ways of interpreting scripture than the protestant accusation of the Papacy being the Beast of Revelation. One of the many flaws in Futurism is it has Satan confirming a covenant in place of Christ. Dispensationalism is complex and I have only sundry knowledge. From a small booklet, (The Gospel and the Kingdom) by Ivan Panin, who was Pentecostal minister, refuting Dispensationalism, I learned that Dispensationalism had 68 Gospels; Panin's conclusion was, Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible. Dispensationalism, as a virus, invaded the Pentecostal churches in the 1930's I believe, fragments of it then spread across Christendom.

“the Torah testifies of the Abrahamic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant was ratified 430 years before the Law of Moses was given and so it stands apart from and outside of the Torah.”

This is a Dispensationalism type of statement in my opinion. It means nothing to me. I do not know what the Abrahamic covenant is; “Law of Moses”, is a metaphor that I assume refers to the Law of God, under the administration of Moses. What does ratify mean; Abraham's descendants are probably around 60% of the worlds population; but as a single nation I would suggest the kingdom of God or the New Jerusalem.

If the promise of a great nation is a covenant, then the need of circumcision is a covenant also; what use is being a descendant of Abraham if one does not belong to God?

The Promise of the Land to Israel was a type of the kingdom of God, and called that.

The promise of the Messiah to Abraham was also a covenant.

I have heard from reliable scholars that Sarah was Abraham's half sister, his deception was he withheld that she was his wife and this was profitable for him, and this is a type, of which Jacob's stealing the promise and the inheritance from his brother, is an anti-type.

This promise passed from Abraham, through Issac, Jacob, Joseph, through his two sons and their descendants. This promise was only ratified since Christ, mainly the last 700 years, and coincides with Gentiles treading the Sanctuary under foot and the beasts of Revelation.

The scriptures have to be a homogeneous set in the context of the established word, the Law and the Prophets, cannot be changed.

 

[Gup20]

I haven't heard of Dispensationalism for a long time, speaking in tongues and the rapture were their marks. I attended a Dispensationalism church when I was innocent and naive, and I only learned about Dispensationalism when I moved onto an other church.

Dispensationalism is a religious system of dividing scripture into dispensations, or sections, with unique narratives misusing scripture; while using English, they redefine jargon in an Orwellian manner such that you think you disagree but in truth you have not understood what they have said. Intrinsic to their narratives is Ribera's futurism, a hypothetical presented by the Jesuit Ribera at the Council of Trent. I say hypothetical because the Catholic Church doesn't seem to have adopted it, it only was intended to show there was other ways of interpreting scripture than the protestant accusation of the Papacy being the Beast of Revelation. One of the many flaws in Futurism is it has Satan confirming a covenant in place of Christ. Dispensationalism is complex and I have only sundry knowledge. From a small booklet, (The Gospel and the Kingdom) by Ivan Panin, who was Pentecostal minister, refuting Dispensationalism, I learned that Dispensationalism had 68 Gospels; Panin's conclusion was, Dispensationalism requires a new Gospel, a new Kingdom and a new Bible. Dispensationalism, as a virus, invaded the Pentecostal churches in the 1930's I believe, fragments of it then spread across Christendom.

Is dispensationalism in the room with you right now?

“the Torah testifies of the Abrahamic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant was ratified 430 years before the Law of Moses was given and so it stands apart from and outside of the Torah.”

This is a Dispensationalism type of statement in my opinion. It means nothing to me. I do not know what the Abrahamic covenant is; “Law of Moses”, is a metaphor that I assume refers to the Law of God, under the administration of Moses. What does ratify mean; Abraham's descendants are probably around 60% of the worlds population; but as a single nation I would suggest the kingdom of God or the New Jerusalem.

I try to use Biblical terms as much as I can to describe Biblical concepts. The Law is often called "The Law of Moses" in both the Old Testament and the New Testament because it was given by God to Moses who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible (the Torah). Jesus Himself called it this.

[Luk 24:44 NASB95] 44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."​

[Act 28:23 NASB95] 23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.

[Deu 31:24 NASB95] 24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete,

[2Ch 34:14 NASB95] 14 When they were bringing out the money which had been brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found the book of the law of the LORD [given] by Moses.

[Jos 23:6 NASB95] 6 "Be very firm, then, to keep and do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, so that you may not turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left,
​

Since Jesus (God) Himself called it The Law of Moses, and many in the Old and New Testament call it The Law of Moses, I feel like we can safely call it The Law of Moses without ruffling too many theological feathers.

Now when I say the Torah testifies of the Abrahamic covenant, I mean that the Abrahamic covenant pre-dates The Law of Moses, and therefore, stands apart from it. Yes, it is written "about" in the law, but since it came about before the law and is a separate covenant from the covenant of The Law, we can say that it is testified about or witnessed by The Law, but not a part of it.

[Rom 3:21-22 NASB95] 21 But now apart from the Law [the] righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even [the] righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;​

Paul views the righteousness which comes by faith as something "apart from" the law... although he says it is "witnessed by" the law. So the law testifies (bares witness) to the righteous which comes through faith, but it is apart from the law of Moses.

[Gal 3:6-8 NASB95] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

[Gal 3:14-18 NASB95] 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

[Gen 15:5-6 NASB20] 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

[Gen 17:7 NASB20] 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.​

So the covenant of righteousness through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ was given to Abraham. This was 430 years before The Law was given to Moses as Paul says in Gal 3:17. Once a covenant is ratified, it can no longer have conditions added to it, so 430 years later when covenant of The Law is given to Moses, it does not modify the previous covenant of faith. The covenant of faith given to Abraham stands apart from the law.

[Jer 31:31-33 NASB95] 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.​

Who lead them out of Egypt? Moses. What covenant is Jeremiah talking about that Israel broke? The Law of Moses.

If the promise of a great nation is a covenant, then the need of circumcision is a covenant also; what use is being a descendant of Abraham if one does not belong to God?

The Promise of the Land to Israel was a type of the kingdom of God, and called that.

The promise of the Messiah to Abraham was also a covenant.

I have heard from reliable scholars that Sarah was Abraham's half sister, his deception was he withheld that she was his wife and this was profitable for him, and this is a type, of which Jacob's stealing the promise and the inheritance from his brother, is an anti-type.

This promise passed from Abraham, through Issac, Jacob, Joseph, through his two sons and their descendants. This promise was only ratified since Christ, mainly the last 700 years, and coincides with Gentiles treading the Sanctuary under foot and the beasts of Revelation.

The scriptures have to be a homogeneous set in the context of the established word, the Law and the Prophets, cannot be changed.

Circumcision is part of God's covenant with Abraham (the covenant of righteousness by faith). It also includes the promise of the land of Israel.

However, circumcision may now be "of the heart" now that the Holy Spirit is come. It is arguable that this was the intended meaning all along.

You can see from the Jeremiah 31:31 passage above that the new covenant is "of the heart." Ezekiel prophesies:

[Eze 36:26 NASB95] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

Even Moses prophesied:

[Deu 30:6 NASB95] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

Paul said:

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB95] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

Circumcision was first implemented in Genesis 17 when God changed Abram's name to Abraham signifying he would be the Father of Many Nations and made His covenant with him.

[Gen 17:7-10 NASB95] 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you. 8 "I will give to you and to your seed after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." 9 God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations. 10 "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your seed after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.​

But Paul explains to us what was happening here:

[Rom 4:9-17 NASB95] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants (seed) that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB20] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
​

Since the Holy Spirit wasn't given until after Jesus ascended, Abraham needed to be circumcised in his flesh as a placeholder for circumcision of the heart (or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Circumcision is the seal of the righteousness which comes by faith.

 

[Lulav]

The lie wasn’t that she was his sister… the lie was that she was only his sister and she wasn’t his wife which is what Abraham clearly meant to covey out of his fear that he would be killed. And it wasn’t the first time he did this lie.

Genesis 12:11-13 (NASB20) 11 It came about, when he was approaching Egypt, that he said to his wife Sarai, “See now, I know that you are a beautiful woman; 12 and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 “Please say that you are my sister so that it may go well for me because of you, and that I may live on account of you.”​

Genesis 12:18-19 (NASB20) 18 Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this that you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 “Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for myself as a wife? Now then, here is your wife, take her and go!”​

Sarah was commanded by her husband to lie about being his wife, so she doesn’t bare the blame. I agree as to why the law of Moses introduced the law of not marrying your close relations, but the point is that both examples represented differences in the “oral law” compared to the law of Moses which is clear evidence that they were not one in the same.

The purpose of the law was to provide a means of cleansing Israel to endure the presence of God, to bring His Word into the earth, to point man to Christ, their only hope for life, and to provide a legal framework for the substitutionary atonement of Christ. It also provided a way to verify the veracity of Christ’s righteousness so that it could be given to the Abrahamic covenant.

Don’t misunderstand - Christ is the bridge between the Abrahamic covenant & the Mosaic covenant. Christ satisfies the demands of the law so that righteousness my be given to the believer through the Abrahamic covenant of faith. In doing so, not one jot or tittle in the law is diminished and it is completely fulfilled.

I see you have no comment on Cain.

As far as Abraham and your continued slander of him in calling him a liar then what would you say about what Yeshua said about liars?

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. Jn 8
​

the lie was that she was only his sister

So a lie of omission? Not full disclosure? One made to save a life?
Maybe like Peter - denial is lying also, but that was an outright lie, three times no less.
But Abraham only revealed half of his genealogical relationship to Sarah.

 

[Lulav]

I have heard from reliable scholars that Sarah was Abraham's half sister, his deception was he withheld that she was his wife and this was profitable for him, and this is a type, of which Jacob's stealing the promise and the inheritance from his brother, is an anti-type.

HI, could you explain in more depth the highlighted part above?

 

[Gup20]

I see you have no comment on Cain.

Nothing you said about Cain proves any argument, and I agree with most of what you said about him.

As far as Abraham and your continued slander of him in calling him a liar then what would you say about what Yeshua said about liars?

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. Jn 8
​

So a lie of omission? Not full disclosure? One made to save a life?
Maybe like Peter - denial is lying also, but that was an outright lie, three times no less.
But Abraham only revealed half of his genealogical relationship to Sarah.

Clearly, Abraham's intention was to deceive both Pharaoh and Abimalech. Do you think Abraham was the sinless Messiah?

 

[sparow]

HI, could you explain in more depth the highlighted part above?

In depth is not easy for me; I see the compensation the King paid to Abraham as the foundation of Abraham's wealth and I see this as coming from God; through Jacob came wealth for Abraham's descendants; the two have common elements, God, intrigue and wealth.

I am surprised you did not ask about the Beast; which is Rome a composite including Babylon, Persia and Greece that has left foot prints in the form of triangles; there is the masonic triangle and a flatter triangle that stands on pillars symbolizing a Pagan temple; these symbols can be found around Buckingham Palace, around the White House and around the Vatican; they can be found on court houses and public buildings around the world.

 

[Lulav]

Nothing you said about Cain proves any argument, and I agree with most of what you said about him.

Clearly, Abraham's intention was to deceive both Pharaoh and Abimalech. Do you think Abraham was the sinless Messiah?

Yes it did, you said that Cain had no concept that murder was wrong and I showed where the LORD explained to him that his anger at his brother would produce sin if he didn't stem it. If the LORD says to Cain 'sin' then there must have been a given law to not murder.

AFA Abraham, do you understand the concept of pikuach nefesh?