“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness.”

[P1LGR1M]

I thought it would be interesting to discuss this comment by Rousas John Rushdoony. It might not even be controversial. What do you think?

My personal take is that it is error.

It is an argument similar to the argument "Pre-Tribulation Rapturists don't think they can go through tribulation." It's a false argument. Pre-Tribulation Rapturists distinguish between tribulation and The Tribulation, and understand quite well that we will go through tribulation while we are in this world but not go through The Tribulation due to the Church being caught up prior to The Tribulation.

The statement, "“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness," is as absurd as the argument given as an example.

First, it has to be defined as to what is meant by Law. I have not read this man's work and never will, but I would guess he is referring to the principles of God's revealed will to man. If that is the case, then we consider what exactly he means by grace.

Shouldnt be too hard for born-again believers to recognize that no one has ever been saved by the revelation God has provided to men, they have only ever been saved by the graceof God. This is true in both the temporal and the Eternal.

So is the grace of God presented in Scripture as an alternative? Of course.

That is a basic principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that men cannot, no matter how hard they try, keep the Law of God. For those who might wonder what I mean by keeping the Law of God, I mean no one can come into obedience to God's will.

If there is a born-again believer here who thinks he or she has, please raise your hand at this time.

It would be better said, "Lawlessness is the alternative to Grace," because those who are lawless have rejected God's grace and do not fall into a category that applies to born-again Christians.

Is there a Christian here that has not been lawless recently? Anyone here who has perfectly kept even the laws of this country? Never ran a red light? Never failed to stop at a stop sign? Always does the speed limit?

Grace is the only alternative to lawlessness. That is just basic. Even in the lawlessness committed by those who are in Christ there is still a need for grace, because it is grace, and grace alone that keeps God from imposing the death penalty when we sin. That applies to both the saved and the lost.


God bless.

 

[fhansen]

My personal take is that it is error.

It is an argument similar to the argument "Pre-Tribulation Rapturists don't think they can go through tribulation." It's a false argument. Pre-Tribulation Rapturists distinguish between tribulation and The Tribulation, and understand quite well that we will go through tribulation while we are in this world but not go through The Tribulation due to the Church being caught up prior to The Tribulation.

The statement, "“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness," is as absurd as the argument given as an example.

First, it has to be defined as to what is meant by Law. I have not read this man's work and never will, but I would guess he is referring to the principles of God's revealed will to man. If that is the case, then we consider what exactly he means by grace.

Shouldnt be too hard for born-again believers to recognize that no one has ever been saved by the revelation God has provided to men, they have only ever been saved by the graceof God. This is true in both the temporal and the Eternal.

So is the grace of God presented in Scripture as an alternative? Of course.

That is a basic principle of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that men cannot, no matter how hard they try, keep the Law of God. For those who might wonder what I mean by keeping the Law of God, I mean no one can come into obedience to God's will.

If there is a born-again believer here who thinks he or she has, please raise your hand at this time.

It would be better said, "Lawlessness is the alternative to Grace," because those who are lawless have rejected God's grace and do not fall into a category that applies to born-again Christians.

Is there a Christian here that has not been lawless recently? Anyone here who has perfectly kept even the laws of this country? Never ran a red light? Never failed to stop at a stop sign? Always does the speed limit?

Grace is the only alternative to lawlessness. That is just basic. Even in the lawlessness committed by those who are in Christ there is still a need for grace, because it is grace, and grace alone that keeps God from imposing the death penalty when we sin. That applies to both the saved and the lost.


God bless.

I guess it depends on how we view or define grace as well. Historically the church believed and taught that grace is the means to authentic obedience rather than a reprieve from the obligation to be obedient. Grace is not only about the remission of sins but also the overcoming of sin. The idea was that, while perfect obedience is the ultimate goal, it isn't expected in this life under the new covenant, but that we're expected to be on that path, oriented toward the righteousness that comes only by virtue of union with God, and not engaged in the kinds of sin that are so grave or severe and anti-love that they constitute a turning away from Him, deeds of the flesh such as those listed in Gal 5, for example. Absolute perfection will come when we meet "face to face", in the next life. God is patiently about the busines of producing something in all this, something much greater than He began with rather than just stocking heaven with a portion of otherwsie worthless sinners.

We have to ask ourselves, is the purpose of the new covenant to allow any degree of sin as long as we believe a certain set of truths? Or is it to change man, from slaves of sin to slaves of righteousness (Rom 6) thereby freeing him from the death that sin earns, as long as he remains willing?

 

[P1LGR1M]

I guess it depends on how we view or define grace as well. Historically the church believed and taught that grace is the means to authentic obedience rather than a reprieve from the obligation to be obedient.

I agree with that fully: salvation is a result, in every Age, of God intervening in the lives of men and women who are physically alive yet dead.

In this Age the primary difference is that God is revealing the Gospel of Christ to man and doing that directly Himself through the Ministry of the Comforter. God reveals truth to man, primarily that man is sinful (and in need of salvation), that Christ alone is righteous, and that man is headed for judgment.

It is grace that motivates God to save those who cannot save themselves. It is grace that motivates God to love us when we are unloveable, and to initiate a relationship of love between Himself and men.

But it is mercy that keeps Him from utterly destroying mankind.

Grace is not only about the remission of sins but also the overcoming of sin.

I agree with that too. However, it is something that again relies on God, particularly in this Age. Even being born-again we still rely on the indwelling of God to help us to live according to His will (Ezekiel 36:27).

The idea was that, while perfect obedience is the ultimate goal, it isn't expected in this life under the new covenant, but that we're expected to be on that path, oriented toward the righteousness that comes only by virtue of union with God, and not engaged in the kinds of sin that are so grave or severe and anti-love that they constitute a turning away from Him, deeds of the flesh such as those listed in Gal 5, for example.

This sounds suspiciously like loss of salvation talk. As one who believes firmly in Eternal Salvation, rather than viewing salvation in Christ as "getting us on the right path," I believe Eternal Salvation is in fact Eternal. Because salvation in this Age is the sinner being immersed into God and God indwelling the sinner, hence he is born again and a new creature, something he was not when he was conceived and born.

Having said that, I do believe that the consistency of God and the Scriptures show that believers will sin (hence our need for an Advocate (1 John 2:1)) and that some will sin unto death, meaning they will sin in such a manner God's patience ceases and they are physically put to death. The wages of sin is death. Always has been, and always will be until the Eternal State.

But I agree, temporally speaking we will never be perfect in this life. I view that as an impossibility due to the flesh we are bound in now. Those who do not understand the sway of the flesh need only fast to see that they aren't in control as much as they think.

Eternally speaking, we have been made complete in Christ. From God's perspective we are righteous based on what Christ has done, and our sins have been forgiven according to His Promise (Jeremiah 31:31-34) on an eternal basis (meaning forever, Hebrews 10:14), hence there is no more offering for sin on our parts (Hebrews 10:15-18).

So we are perfect in one sense, but in this life we still deal with sin. We have been saved (from the penalty of sin), we are being saved (from the impact of sin in our lives), and we will be saved (bodily and finally when our bodies are redeemed as well).

Absolute perfection will come when we meet "face to face", in the next life.

That is an interesting issue for me, because I am not sure that when we die and are unclothed (shed of our physical body, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8) that we will be absolutely perfect.

In Revelation 6:9-10 we see the "souls" (I am a dichotomist so I view "souls" as referring to people, rather than a soul is an immaterial aspect of man's make-up) of martyrs slain for the Word of God crying out for vengeance. In the Eternal State I do not expect vengeance to be a quality among the One Fold.

Secondly, if we die before the Rapture we will not at that time receive our glorified bodies, so I can't really see "absolute perfection" until we have.

God is patiently about the busines of producing something in all this, something much greater than He began with rather than just stocking heaven with a portion of otherwsie worthless sinners.

I agree.

But I also think that's all that will be in Heaven and the Eternal State, lol, worhtless sinners. No one there except the Lamb of God will actually be worthy.

We have to ask ourselves, is the purpose of the new covenant to allow any degree of sin as long as we believe a certain set of truths?

No.

The Old Covenant, or, the First Covenant (and not the first sequentially), or, Moses' Law was made obsolete specifically because they did not keep the Covenant:


Hebrews 8:8-9
King James Version

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


That is why I find the quote of the OP absurd: obedience to God is not something we can credit ourselves with. We owe anything we do that is in obedience to God to His grace.

And that grace was his promise (Ezekiel 36:24-27).

Or is it to change man, from slaves of sin to slaves of righteousness (Rom 6) thereby freeing him from the death that sin earns, as long as he remains willing?

It has always been God's goal to...


Romans 8:29
King James Version

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


And what Scripture teaches us is that His goal has been effected in stages.

The Old Testament Saints were saved but they were not born again.

We are saved, and born again, but we are not glorified.

Eternal Redemption meets its full completion in the Eternal State.

Until then we live within the stage of Eternal Redemption we are in at this time. For some that will be brand-new babes in Christ. For some that will be as young men. For some that is as elders, those who, through a life of trial, temptation, testing, chastisement, learning, growing, and being taught of God—are wiser in understanding the full potential of the deadliness of sin in our lives.

The quote:

"“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness,"

As I said, for some itmeans one thing, but to me it simply states "The alternative to lawlessness is the Law."

Grace is the alternative to Law. Because it is His grace by which we are able to first understand then live according to His will for our lives. To generalize what the Law is and seek to bring this yoke upon men is in direct contradiction to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Covenant of Law was given for only a temporary time and it was meant to show men their dire need of Savior God by showing men they could not keep it. This is why vicarious animal sacrifice—given in Adam's day—was necessary. Hebrews 10:1-4 makes it clear that the Law held only a shadow of the good things to come and could not take away sin. Only the Offering of Christ could make the worshiper complete in regards to the function of vicarious animal sacrifice. Meaning—until Christ's Death sacrifice would never had accomplished the goal it was given for. That is—remission of sin.

The author of the quote might as well say, "Hey people, don't get hung up on this grace thing."


God bless.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with that too. However, it is something that again relies on God, particularly in this Age. Even being born-again we still rely on the indwelling of God to help us to live according to His will (Ezekiel 36:27).

Yes, thats the basis of the gospel-and of church teachings on it from the beginning.

This sounds suspiciously like loss of salvation talk. As one who believes firmly in Eternal Salvation, rather than viewing salvation in Christ as "getting us on the right path," I believe Eternal Salvation is in fact Eternal. Because salvation in this Age is the sinner being immersed into God and God indwelling the sinner, hence he is born again and a new creature, something he was not when he was conceived and born.

The possibility of the loss of salvation is the way scripture talks and the church talked from day one. Either way, one can believe that righteousness is an obligation that can only be fulfulled by the grace of God as we walk with Him-while still recognizing that we can walk away from Him and return to the flesh, failing to remain in Him. The will of man remains involved until the end in that he can say "no" at any point. The firmer and stronger his "yes", the stronger his love for God IOW, the greater his justice/righteousness and his rejection of sin/evil.

But I also think that's all that will be in Heaven and the Eternal State, lol, worhtless sinners. No one there except the Lamb of God will actually be worthy.

And yet if God can't create us good to begin with-and ultimately worthy of that which He created us for, how capable a God is He? LOL. No one will ever have the perfection and goodness and glory of Him, who is perfection and goodness and glory in essence, but they will be like Him-that's His purpose. There won't be any sin in heaven. We'll finally be over that, by His grace.

That is why I find the quote of the OP absurd: obedience to God is not something we can credit ourselves with. We owe anything we do that is in obedience to God to His grace.

Obedience to God is something Adam failed at. God's patient efforts since then is to steer man back to obedience. And He simply will not force that upon us-never has. Ultimately this is because obedience is a choice, because love is a choice, and love is the only authentic motivator for authentic obedience of God. Love is not love unless that gift of grace is accepted, embraced and expressed. That's the transformation, the process by which we become increasingly like Him. It begins as a seed as we're justifed by faith, another virtue, another planted gift that must be accepted and acted upon first as we come to know our need for Him. God wants our wills involved, for our own greatest good. We cannot begin to do it apart from Him, but we must still participate in getting it done. Man is like a flower that can compromise and stifle his own blossoming-by his own pride, by his own preference for himself and the world over God-or not.

I agree with that fully: salvation is a result, in every Age, of God intervening in the lives of men and women who are physically alive yet dead.

In this Age the primary difference is that God is revealing the Gospel of Christ to man and doing that directly Himself through the Ministry of the Comforter. God reveals truth to man, primarily that man is sinful (and in need of salvation), that Christ alone is righteous, and that man is headed for judgment.

It is grace that motivates God to save those who cannot save themselves. It is grace that motivates God to love us when we are unloveable, and to initiate a relationship of love between Himself and men.

But it is mercy that keeps Him from utterly destroying mankind.




I agree with that too. However, it is something that again relies on God, particularly in this Age. Even being born-again we still rely on the indwelling of God to help us to live according to His will (Ezekiel 36:27).




This sounds suspiciously like loss of salvation talk. As one who believes firmly in Eternal Salvation, rather than viewing salvation in Christ as "getting us on the right path," I believe Eternal Salvation is in fact Eternal. Because salvation in this Age is the sinner being immersed into God and God indwelling the sinner, hence he is born again and a new creature, something he was not when he was conceived and born.

Having said that, I do believe that the consistency of God and the Scriptures show that believers will sin (hence our need for an Advocate (1 John 2:1)) and that some will sin unto death, meaning they will sin in such a manner God's patience ceases and they are physically put to death. The wages of sin is death. Always has been, and always will be until the Eternal State.

But I agree, temporally speaking we will never be perfect in this life. I view that as an impossibility due to the flesh we are bound in now. Those who do not understand the sway of the flesh need only fast to see that they aren't in control as much as they think.

Eternally speaking, we have been made complete in Christ. From God's perspective we are righteous based on what Christ has done, and our sins have been forgiven according to His Promise (Jeremiah 31:31-34) on an eternal basis (meaning forever, Hebrews 10:14), hence there is no more offering for sin on our parts (Hebrews 10:15-18).

So we are perfect in one sense, but in this life we still deal with sin. We have been saved (from the penalty of sin), we are being saved (from the impact of sin in our lives), and we will be saved (bodily and finally when our bodies are redeemed as well).




That is an interesting issue for me, because I am not sure that when we die and are unclothed (shed of our physical body, 2 Corinthians 5:1-8) that we will be absolutely perfect.

In Revelation 6:9-10 we see the "souls" (I am a dichotomist so I view "souls" as referring to people, rather than a soul is an immaterial aspect of man's make-up) of martyrs slain for the Word of God crying out for vengeance. In the Eternal State I do not expect vengeance to be a quality among the One Fold.

Secondly, if we die before the Rapture we will not at that time receive our glorified bodies, so I can't really see "absolute perfection" until we have.




I agree.

But I also think that's all that will be in Heaven and the Eternal State, lol, worhtless sinners. No one there except the Lamb of God will actually be worthy.




No.

The Old Covenant, or, the First Covenant (and not the first sequentially), or, Moses' Law was made obsolete specifically because they did not keep the Covenant:


Hebrews 8:8-9
King James Version

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


That is why I find the quote of the OP absurd: obedience to God is not something we can credit ourselves with. We owe anything we do that is in obedience to God to His grace.

And that grace was his promise (Ezekiel 36:24-27).




It has always been God's goal to...


Romans 8:29
King James Version

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


And what Scripture teaches us is that His goal has been effected in stages.

The Old Testament Saints were saved but they were not born again.

We are saved, and born again, but we are not glorified.

Eternal Redemption meets its full completion in the Eternal State.

Until then we live within the stage of Eternal Redemption we are in at this time. For some that will be brand-new babes in Christ. For some that will be as young men. For some that is as elders, those who, through a life of trial, temptation, testing, chastisement, learning, growing, and being taught of God—are wiser in understanding the full potential of the deadliness of sin in our lives.

The quote:

"“The alternative to law is not grace; it’s lawlessness,"

As I said, for some itmeans one thing, but to me it simply states "The alternative to lawlessness is the Law."

Grace is the alternative to Law. Because it is His grace by which we are able to first understand then live according to His will for our lives. To generalize what the Law is and seek to bring this yoke upon men is in direct contradiction to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Covenant of Law was given for only a temporary time and it was meant to show men their dire need of Savior God by showing men they could not keep it. This is why vicarious animal sacrifice—given in Adam's day—was necessary. Hebrews 10:1-4 makes it clear that the Law held only a shadow of the good things to come and could not take away sin. Only the Offering of Christ could make the worshiper complete in regards to the function of vicarious animal sacrifice. Meaning—until Christ's Death sacrifice would never had accomplished the goal it was given for. That is—remission of sin.

The author of the quote might as well say, "Hey people, don't get hung up on this grace thing."


God bless.

The law is still right because the righteousness that it attests to but cannot deliver is still right (Rom 3:21-22). Again, grace is not for the purpose of relieving man from his obligation to be righteous, but is the means to true righteousness for man, to becoming who he was created to be.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

Once Adam departed from God he was nothing. And here's actually a corollary related to that truth:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

Faith is the doorway to that love, to God. And all of man's righteousness is based on and flows from that love, from Him, as the law did, incidentally. If man didn't need to learn the value of love, the "value of God", the hard way then he would've loved God from the beginning and obedience would've come of its own accord. And there would've been no need for the law. As it is God is cultivating that in us, over time here on this planet with revelation, grace, and our own experience living in a world where His will does not necessarily reign at all, with the Master "gone" and the human will reigning instead in our alienation from Him, where both good and evil are literally experienced- or known. Now we're all the better prepared- to make the choice.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Sorry, going to have to rush through this one, I am about out of time (about two hours ago).

The possibility of the loss of salvation is the way scripture talks and the church talked from day one. Either way, one can believe that righteousness is an obligation that can only be fulfulled by the grace of God as we walk with Him-while still recognizing that we can walk away from Him and return to the flesh, failing to remain in Him. The will of man remains involved until the end in that he can say "no" at any point. The firmer and stronger his "yes", the stronger his love for God IOW, the greater his justice/righteousness and his rejection of sin/evil.

If loss of salvation is possible perhaps you could explain to me the following statement:


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Or the following:


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


If one has been forgiven on an eternal basis, and God will no longer remember the sin He has forgiven as He promised, how then can Eternal Salvation then be Probationary Salvation as the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) teach?

Are you suggesting a Clean-Slate reformation as what Scripture teaches?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

And yet if God can't create us good to begin with-and ultimately worthy of that which He created us for, how capable a God is He? LOL. No one will ever have the perfection and goodness and glory of Him, who is perfection and goodness and glory in essence, but they will be like Him-that's His purpose. There won't be any sin in heaven. We'll finally be over that, by His grace.

Actually, God created man specifically according to His purpose:


Romans 8:29
King James Version

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


The better question, if we are going to question God, is "Why didn't He just make us like Christ to begin with? Glorified bodies and all?"

Would you mind answering that question for me?

And it is open to anyone that would like to answer it.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Obedience to God is something Adam failed at. God's patient efforts since then is to steer man back to obedience. And He simply will not force that upon us-never has. Ultimately this is because obedience is a choice, because love is a choice, and love is the only authentic motivator for authentic obedience of God. Love is not love unless that gift of grace is accepted, embraced and expressed. That's the transformation, the process by which we become increasingly like Him. It begins as a seed as we're justifed by faith, another virtue, another planted gift that must be accepted and acted upon first as we come to know our need for Him. God wants our wills involved, for our own greatest good. We cannot begin to do it apart from Him, but we must still participate in getting it done. Man is like a flower that can compromise and stifle his own blossoming-by his own pride, by his own preference for himself and the world over God-or not.

I'd love to parse this and address each point but I don't have the time, so just going to say...

1. That God will not force men is denied in His dealings with numerous people in Scripture. We can start with Moses that didn't want to preach to Pharoaoh, or Jonah, or Paul. Of course God will enforce His will on man. Doesn't mean He always does, it just means He will if He chooses. In a context dealing with believers and whether He will force people to obey, again, I view it as sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't. But, because sin still carries a death penalty and this is seen to be exacted on believers we still understand that obedience to His Will (which He provides) will save us from physical death. Has nothing to do with our Eternal Redemption, nor do we see anywhere in Scripture that those who are in Christ are "taken out."

How exactly are you going to un-indwell yourself? lol

2. God bestows grace regardless of whether we "accept it or not."

Do you really thinkk you made an agreement with God when you were saved? You two sat down and discussed it? You checked the benefits and decided they were good and said, "Okay, Lord, I agree to be saved?"

Or were you plucked from the fire by the hand of God?

3. I would suggest that key to benefitting from God's intervention in our lives before and after salvation is simply not rejecting His will. If you were drowning in a lake and someone outstretched their hand and said "Grab hold!" you could decide to reject the hand. Most people won't even hear the "Grab hold!" but will desperately seek to grab hold. That analogy breaks down of course, and oversimplifies the matter, but is given just as an example.

I view anything added to God's grace as works-based salvation. You didn't die on the Cross with Christ, and if you had—there would be two Saviors, not one Savior God.

And there is only One, after all.


Continued...

 

[Clare73]

Actually, God created man specifically according to His purpose:
Romans 8:29
King James Version
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The better question, if we are going to question God, is
"Why didn't He just make us like Christ to begin with? Glorified bodies and all?"
Would you mind answering that question for me?
And it is open to anyone that would like to answer it.
Continued...

Because it would not serve his purpose--to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9:22-23).

 

[P1LGR1M]

The law is still right because the righteousness that it attests to but cannot deliver is still right (Rom 3:21-22). Again, grace is not for the purpose of relieving man from his obligation to be righteous, but is the means to true righteousness for man, to becoming who he was created to be.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

I agree, the Law is righteous, holy, and good.

But it has never saved the first person and never will. Only God can save, and He does so because of His grace, not something that men could make Him a debtor for. Salvation is a gift, not a reward. Never will be.

And again, the quote of the OP is misleading and false: we do not seek an alternative to Law, but place Law (in every context we see it used in, i.e., God's revealed will, His written Word, and the principles that we are to understand from both, and even the Covenant of Law) in it's proper context.

Nowhere are we going to see in Scripture "Salvation by grace and Law."

Grace is a simple concept. So is mercy. Why complicate it and deny that it is by grace that we are saved?

Why not distinguish properly between Positional Sanctification and Progressive Sanctification? Scripture does, is it not then "lawful" (lol) for us to do likewise?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Because it would not serve his purpose--to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9:22-23).

I think that is a fantastic answer.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Once Adam departed from God he was nothing. And here's actually a corollary related to that truth:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

I see no correlation: exactly what faith are we told Adam had?

Ever?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Faith is the doorway to that love, to God. And all of man's righteousness is based on and flows from that love, from Him, as the law did, incidentally. If man didn't need to learn the value of love, the "value of God", the hard way then he would've loved God from the beginning and obedience would've come of its own accord. And there would've been no need for the law. As it is God is cultivating that in us, over time here on this planet with revelation, grace, and our own experience living in a world where His will does not necessarily reign at all, with the Master "gone" and the human will reigning instead, where both good and evil are literally experienced- or known. Now we're all the better prepared- to make the choice.

So we are saved by faith?

Sorry, this is just one error that comes out of the Reformation. Not intentional, perhaps, but error just the same.

We are saved by grace. I can stop there and I am soteriologically correct.

Saved by grace through faith, but until God enlightened my understanding to truth I had no inherent ability to even perceive—I had no faith and faith was not possible.

So Who do I credit for my faith?

And if I now say, "Yep, Jesus saved me. I sure hope I can be good enough to be saved" what am I doing? I am contradicting the first statement.

And if I say, "Yup, Jesus is the Good Shepherd. I sure hope He won't let me wander off and get lost" what am I doing? I am contradicting the first statement.

Jesus is the Savior, my friend, not Jesus and fhansen. If our salvation is reliant on you and me then we are in serious trouble.


God bless.

 

[Clare73]

I'd love to parse this and address each point but I don't have the time, so just going to say...

1. That God will not force men is denied in His dealings with numerous people in Scripture. We can start with Moses that didn't want to preach to Pharoaoh, or Jonah, or Paul. Of course God will enforce His will on man. Doesn't mean He always does, it just means He will if He chooses. In a context dealing with believers and whether He will force people to obey, again, I view it as sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't.

But, because sin still carries a death penalty and this is seen to be exacted on believers we still understand that obedience to His Will (which He provides) will save us from physical death. Has nothing to do with our Eternal Redemption,
nor do we see anywhere in Scripture that those who are in Christ are "taken out."

Taken out in physical death, not spiritual death, as in Ananias and Sapphira.

How exactly are you going to un-indwell yourself? lol
2. God bestows grace regardless of whether we "accept it or not."
Do you really thinkk you made an agreement with God when you were saved? You two sat down and discussed it? You checked the benefits and decided they were good and said, "Okay, Lord, I agree to be saved?"
Or were you plucked from the fire by the hand of God?

3. I would suggest that key to benefitting from God's intervention in our lives before and after salvation is simply not rejecting His will.

Grace is simply empowerment to obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).

If you were drowning in a lake and someone outstretched their hand and said "Grab hold!" you could decide to reject the hand. Most people won't even hear the "Grab hold!" but will desperately seek to grab hold. That analogy breaks down of course, and oversimplifies the matter, but is given just as an example.
I view anything added to God's grace as works-based salvation. You didn't die on the Cross with Christ, and if you had—there would be two Saviors, not one Savior God.
And there is only One, after all.

One God, in three separate persons, right?

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Grace is simply empowerment to obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).

I don't know if I could view it as "simple," lol, but for the most part I'd agree: it is impossible for natural men and women to be in obedience apart from God first providing the understanding that something they are doing is sin. The same is true for believers in this Age. Just because I was saved doesn't mean I had a clue after being saved as to what God's will for my life (and the lives of others) was. I don't think I can yet say that I completely understand everything or ever will, and Paul indicates I won't (but he has been wrong before (that is just a joke, lol)).

One God, in three separate persons, right?

Absolutely.


God bless.

 

[fhansen]

I see no correlation: exactly what faith are we told Adam had?

Ever?


Continued...

The correlation is in the fact that Adam, along with ourselves, isn't really where he needs to be, isn't really anything much, and cannot refrain from sin, until and unless he exists in a bond of love between himself and God.

 

[sparow]

We all have the Law written on our hearts.
Salvation by grace may be the opposite of trying to obtain salvation by the Law.

If a man says the Law is written on his heart and does not keep the Law, then the man is a liar. A person keeping the Law need to be careful not to do what the pharisees did. Keeping the Law without having it written on the heart is profitable but has no salvation in it. Having the law written on one's heart is the same as entering into the covenant, the covenant that most Christians abrogate.

 

[bling]

If a man says the Law is written on his heart and does not keep the Law, then the man is a liar. A person keeping the Law need to be careful not to do what the pharisees did. Keeping the Law without having it written on the heart is profitable but has no salvation in it. Having the law written on one's heart is the same as entering into the covenant, the covenant that most Christians abrogate.

You said: “If a man says the Law is written on his heart and does not keep the Law, then the man is a liar”. The man is a sinner, but he maybe confessing to the fact he cannot keep the law written on his heart, because he lacks the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love, so he would not be lying.

All mature adults have the law written on their hearts, but that does not mean they have made a covenant with God.

 

[Gup20]

I think we should look to the first person saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ - Abraham.

[Rom 4:16-17 NASB20] 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

Galatians 3 is a parallel to Romans 4, and discusses this further:

[Gal 3:6-9, 11-12, 14, 16-18 NASB20] 6 Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 11 Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "THE PERSON WHO PERFORMS THEM WILL LIVE BY THEM." ... 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [one would in referring] to many, but [rather] as [in referring] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

So the Mosaic covenant (works of the law) is justification by works, but the Abrahamic covenant is justification by grace (promise). So rather than being justified by what you do in relation to The Law, you are justified by being qualified as an inheritor of the promise. Having the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had qualifies you as his descendant and an heir of the righteousness he was given because of his faith due to God's promise that it would be an eternal covenant to him and to his seed.

Note what it says in Gal 3:16-18 -- the law came 430 years AFTER the Abrahamic covenant was ratified by God. Once ratified, it can no longer have conditions added to it. Therefore, one could say that the Abrahamic covenant is 'lawless' since The Law didn't exist. Therefore the Abrahamic covenant is truly "apart from the law."

 

[sparow]

You said: “If a man says the Law is written on his heart and does not keep the Law, then the man is a liar”. The man is a sinner, but he maybe confessing to the fact he cannot keep the law written on his heart, because he lacks the indwelling Holy Spirit and Godly type Love, so he would not be lying.

All mature adults have the law written on their hearts, but that does not mean they have made a covenant with God.

Your view of having the Law written on ones heart is different to mine. Jesus gives us rest from sin by empowering us to overcome, not by turning a blind eye to sin; confessing to our piers assist us to repent when we stumble; when we stumble we are required get straight up again.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If a man says the Law is written on his heart and does not keep the Law, then the man is a liar. A person keeping the Law need to be careful not to do what the pharisees did. Keeping the Law without having it written on the heart is profitable but has no salvation in it. Having the law written on one's heart is the same as entering into the covenant, the covenant that most Christians abrogate.

What covenant is it that you feel most Christians abrogate?


God bless.