Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[SabbathBlessings]

I wonder how God feels about man dissecting His commandments and deciding which ones they feel are ceremonial and not to be kept the way He commanded with His personally written instructions by His very own finger and spoken by His very own voice. We know of another spirit who wants us to not remember and keep God’s seventh day Sabbath holy, but that certainly is not our Creator!

God said and wrote:

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

God shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments right in His Ten Commandments. If God wanted to make nine commandment He would have. God wrote and spoke Ten Commandments Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18 and Ten Commandments are kept in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple which is revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19. Just like the Sabbath remains when the saints will continue to worship the Lord. Isaiah 66:22-23

Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Thank you Lord for your clear instructions to us so we won’t be deceived and can stay on the narrow path.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Doran]

I wonder how God feels about man dissecting His commandments and deciding which ones they feel are ceremonial and not to be kept the way He commanded with His personally written instructions by His very own finger and spoken by His very own voice. We know of another spirit who wants us to not remember and keep God’s seventh day Sabbath holy, but that certainly is not our Creator!

God said and wrote:

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

God shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments right in His Ten Commandments. If God wanted to make nine commandment He would have. God wrote and spoke Ten Commandments Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18 and Ten Commandments are kept in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple which is revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19. Just like the Sabbath remains when the saints will continue to worship the Lord. Isaiah 66:22-23

Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Thank you Lord for your clear instructions to us so we won’t be deceived and can stay on the narrow path.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You have to do better than that, SB. Cutting and pasting canned, one-size-fits-all scriptures isn't going to cut it. You need to address the specific issues that have been raised. And you also need to quit erecting easily destroyed strawmen. Numerous God-fearing, pious born again believers today still obey the 4th commandment -- just not in the way that was a shadow of ultimate spiritual reality in the Old Covenant. Christ is now our Sabbath Rest. So, under the New Covenant we obey the 4th commandment in its new and infinitely superior form. The 4th commandment to us is not merely a weekly religious ritual; rather the warp 'n' woof of it is the Person and Work of Christ.

Also, I would remind you that we're exhorted to handle God's Word accurately (2Tim 2:15). And the only way we can do that is by having much more than a passing knowledge of his truth, by prayer and by reliance on the Holy Spirit to give us understanding. And, frankly, you don't even do this very well since you contradict Jesus in the Lk 6:1-5 by claiming that what David did was lawful -- when Jesus clearly said that it was lawful only for priests to eat the bread. So...do you have chapter and verse to inform us that David was, after all, a priest? Or are you just grossly mishandling God's Word because it doesn't square with your narrative -- with your agenda?

Explain to us,for example, how the writer of Hebrews could say that that Law itself was but a shadow, and how the 4th commandment, which itself is of the ceremonial genre of law, could escape from also being a shadow.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You have to do better than that, SB. Cutting and pasting canned, one-size-fits-all scriptures isn't going to cut it. You need to address the specific issues that have been raised. And you also need to quit erecting easily destroyed strawmen. Numerous God-fearing, pious born again believers today still obey the 4th commandment -- just not in the way that was a shadow of ultimate spiritual reality in the Old Covenant. Christ is now our Sabbath Rest. So, under the New Covenant we obey the 4th commandment in its new and infinitely superior form. The 4th commandment to us is not merely a weekly religious ritual; rather the warp 'n' woof of it is the Person and Work of Christ.

Also, I would remind you that we're exhorted to handle God's Word accurately (2Tim 2:15). And the only way we can do that is by having much more than a passing knowledge of his truth, by prayer and by reliance on the Holy Spirit to give us understanding. And, frankly, you don't even do this very well since you contradict Jesus in the Lk 6:1-5 by claiming that what David did was lawful -- when Jesus clearly said that it was lawful only for priests to eat the bread. So...do you have chapter and verse to inform us that David was, after all, a priest? Or are you just grossly mishandling God's Word because it doesn't square with your narrative -- with your agenda?

Explain to us,for example, how the writer of Hebrews could say that that Law itself was but a shadow, and how the 4th commandment, which itself is of the ceremonial genre of law, could escape from also being a shadow.

Please point to the scripture that say the Sabbath commandment is ceremonial and not one of God’s finger-written Ten Commandments or where in Hebrews it says the Sabbath commandment is a shadow? Or Christ is our Sabbath. Any scripture that says we do not have to obey the Sabbath commandment. Our thoughts, opinions, and ideas are not equal to God’s Word.

I notice you didn’t quote scripture to back up your claims and I agree we need to be careful how we handle God’s Word. We are told not to add or subtract to God’s commandments or His Word. Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[Bob S]

I wonder how God feels about man dissecting His commandments and deciding which ones they feel are ceremonial and not to be kept the way He commanded with His personally written instructions by His very own finger and spoken by His very own voice. We know of another spirit who wants us to not remember and keep God’s seventh day Sabbath holy, but that certainly is not our Creator!

God said and wrote:

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

God shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments right in His Ten Commandments. If God wanted to make nine commandment He would have. God wrote and spoke Ten Commandments Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18 and Ten Commandments are kept in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple which is revealed in Heaven Revelation 11:19. Just like the Sabbath remains when the saints will continue to worship the Lord. Isaiah 66:22-23

Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Thank you Lord for your clear instructions to us so we won’t be deceived and can stay on the narrow path.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Hi SB, you keep telling us "God shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments right in His Ten Commandments.". That is such a confusing statement because God gave Israel along with the ten commandments six hundred and three more commands of which many were directed to the individual Israelite. He gave all of those commands to only one nation of people. Gentiles were never given all of those commands including the one you keep telling us we have to keep. You indicate that God only has mercy on the ones who follow the teachings God gave to Israel, but limit all of the six hundred and thirteen to ten. You never write about the greatest command ever given in all of God's Holy Write. You know it is the one in the passage where Jesus is telling us that He kept the laws God gave to Israel and then asks us to keep His commandment of love the way He loves us. It goes like this; 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

What were the commands Jesus kept SB. He was born under the Law given only to Israel. That is the Law He kept. In the passage above He is telling all who believe in Him that we are to keep His commands. Then He tells us about the NEW command to love others as He loves us. Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind by allowing unbelievers to take the life out of Him. The Royal Law of LOVE is what everyone of us who love Jesus should we sharing with all mankind. His command is the Law, it is the Good News we are to teach all mankind. The ten commandments that you are trying to teach are labeled by Paul as the ministry of death and in 2Cor 3:6-11 Paul wrote that they are no longer the guide of God's people. Something much greater is our guide. The Holy Spirit was poured out to everyone at Pentecost and Paul in those verses tells us the Spirit is Mankind's guide. We are to follow the guidance of the Spirit because the ten commandments were the ministry of death for Israel.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, you keep telling us "God shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments right in His Ten Commandments.". That is such a confusing statement because God gave Israel along with the ten commandments six hundred and three more commands of which many were directed to the individual Israelite. He gave all of those commands to only one nation of people. Gentiles were never given all of those commands including the one you keep telling us we have to keep. You indicate that God only has mercy on the ones who follow the teachings God gave to Israel, but limit all of the six hundred and thirteen to ten. You never write about the greatest command ever given in all of God's Holy Write. You know it is the one in the passage where Jesus is telling us that He kept the laws God gave to Israel and then asks us to keep His commandment of love the way He loves us. It goes like this; 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

What were the commands Jesus kept SB. He was born under the Law given only to Israel. That is the Law He kept. In the passage above He is telling all who believe in Him that we are to keep His commands. Then He tells us about the NEW command to love others as He loves us. Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind by allowing unbelievers to take the life out of Him. The Royal Law of LOVE is what everyone of us who love Jesus should we sharing with all mankind. His command is the Law, it is the Good News we are to teach all mankind. The ten commandments that you are trying to teach are labeled by Paul as the ministry of death and in 2Cor 3:6-11 Paul wrote that they are no longer the guide of God's people. Something much greater is our guide. The Holy Spirit was poured out to everyone at Pentecost and Paul in those verses tells us the Spirit is Mankind's guide. We are to follow the guidance of the Spirit because the ten commandments were the ministry of death for Israel.

Israel is just a name God gave His people. Once you understand this, the scriptures will be much easier to understand. God never made a covenant with Gentiles, God’s new covenant promise is also made with Israel where God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people. Hebrews 8:10. If your are one of God’s people there is no Jew or Gentiles, just those in Christ. Galatians 3:26-28. I would not want to write myself out of God’s covenant promise.

 

[Bob S]

The reason the World's people are becoming so vicious is not because they don't keep the day or days God gave to only one nation. The reason is that people have suffocated the Love that is planted in the hearts of all mankind. The greatest command ever given by God to man is to love and man in his/her stupidity has chosen hate over LOVE. LOVE covers every sin known to mankind. The ten that some teach so fervently, only covers nine ways to treat our fellow man and doesn't even mention the greatest one that mankind has ever been given, LOVE.

Question; what would Gladimir Putin be doing right now if he was allowing the Holy Spirit to guide him in LOVE.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The reason the World's people are becoming so vicious is not because they don't keep the day or days God gave to only one nation. The reason is that people have suffocated the Love that is planted in the hearts of all mankind. The greatest command ever given by God to man is to love and man in his/her stupidity has chosen hate over LOVE. LOVE covers every sin known to mankind. The ten that some teach so fervently, only covers nine ways to treat our fellow man and doesn't even mention the greatest one that mankind has ever been given, LOVE.

Question; what would Gladimir Putin be doing right now if he was allowing the Holy Spirit to guide him in LOVE.

We are told LOVE to God is keeping His commandments 1 John 5:3

 

[Bob S]

Israel is just a name God gave His people. Once you understand this, the scriptures will be much easier to understand. God never made a covenant with Gentiles, God’s new covenant promise is also made with Israel where God writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people. Hebrews 8:10. If your are one of God’s people there is no Jew or Gentiles, just those in Christ. Galatians 3:26-28. I would not want to write myself out of God’s covenant promise.

Somehow, I knew you would not respond positively to my post. I have tried my best to explain what the plan of salvation is all about and you reply with the above statement. First of all, you are wrong about God not giving Gentiles covenants. Adam was a Gentile; Noah was a Gentile and Abraham was a gentile. All were given covenants. You are wrong about what is written in our hearts. We are all one because Jesus came and broke the barrier that divided Jews and Gentiles by doing away with the Law Jews were under. Please do not take my word for this. Study Eph 2 and especially verse 15.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Then study Matt 5:
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your works of the Law light shine before others, that they may see your works of the Law good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Did Jesus accomplish bringing the Law to an end like He said He came to do SB? Paul said Jesus did there in Eph2:15. Because Jesus set the Law aside, Jews are not under it, Gentiles never were.

 

[Doran]

Please point to the scripture that say the Sabbath commandment is ceremonial and not one of God’s finger-written Ten Commandments or where in Hebrews it says the Sabbath commandment is a shadow? Or Christ is our Sabbath. Any scripture that says we do not have to obey the Sabbath commandment. Our thoughts, opinions, and ideas are not equal to God’s Word.

I notice you didn’t quote scripture to back up your claims and I agree we need to be careful how we handle God’s Word. We are told not to add or subtract to God’s commandments or His Word. Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6

Are you serious? I haven't quoted scriptures to back up my arguments!? But in your last post you accused me of "dissecting" scripture. So, which is it!? It seems there is no pleasing you.

I presented the primary argument for the ceremonial nature of the 4th commandment in post 1229 and 1230. (This is where I accidently posted twice.) In this argument I argue mainly that the 4th commandment was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

I have also argued that the 4th is of the ceremonial genre from Luke 6 and and another poster brought Matthew 12 into the picture since Jesus is very clearly making an analogy between the sabbath by comparing it to other ceremonial type laws. In the case of David, his eating the showbread. And also in Matthew 12 Jesus reminds the Pharisees how the priests every sabbath desecrate the day, yet are innocent!? This clearly infers that that the sabbath law was subject to a higher law -- this higher law being the moral law!

Jesus even brought the temple itself to bear in making his defense! If the sabbath law was moral in nature, why in the world would he bring the temple into his argument since the temple is all about religious ceremonial rituals!? There is no logical connection between the temple's ceremonial rituals and the moral law!

Also, you should look up the noun "ritual". In my mighty fine M-W Collegiate Dictionary, the primary definition reads: the established form for a ceremony. And a portion of the 2nd definition reads: a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts. The first definition fits the New Covenant sign of Baptism perfectly since this rite is usually a one time act; while the second fits the New Covenant ritual of the Lord's Supper (i.e. Communion) -- a ritual I observe weekly at my church just like you observe weekly a special, sacred day, which you call the sabbath. Give me any moral law that is observed ritually!

And I alluded to Heb 10:1 yesterday wherein the writer explicitly said that the law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming -- not the realities themselves. So...if this is true of the entire Covenant of Law, how much more for any commandment of the ceremonial genre?

And one final thing before I take my leave: You constantly make a big deal of the ten commandments being etched in stone. But you forget a few things.

The Law Covenant was strictly a temporary arrangement. Only the New Covenant is called Eternal. Also, the ten commandments were not the only commandments that were binding. What about other commands in the Book of the Covenant that are as equally as binding such as the prohibitions against homosexual acts, bestiality, the positive commands to act in a just manner to execute justice, etc.? Or where in the ten commandments on the stones is it written to love God with all mind, heart, soul and strength or to love our neighbor as ourselves? It's no wonder Paul could say that he wasn't under the law covenant but rather under the Law of Christ (1Cor 9:21).

Finally, I have stated often that numerous Christians today do keep the 4th commandment -- just not in its Old Covenant form -- but in the New Covenant form, since Christ is our sabbath rest. Yesterday, I gave several ways in which Christ is our "sabbath rest" since the sabbath is a type of Christ. This fact is precisely why Paul could say what he did in Rom 14:5. We have liberty in this matter, which is why Paul essentially said let your conscience be your guide -- be convinced by your conscience. He could have have said just as easily be convinced by the 4th commandment, but he didn't. If someone in his heart of hearts believes one day of the week is more sacred than others, then that's fine. But if someone thinks differently and believes sincerely that every day is alike, that too is fine.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Somehow, I knew you would not respond positively to my post. I have tried my best to explain what the plan of salvation is all about and you reply with the above statement. First of all, you are wrong about God not giving Gentiles covenants. Adam was a Gentile; Noah was a Gentile and Abraham was a gentile. All were given covenants. You are wrong about what is written in our hearts. We are all one because Jesus came and broke the barrier that divided Jews and Gentiles by doing away with the Law Jews were under. Please do not take my word for this. Study Eph 2 and especially verse 15.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Then study Matt 5:
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your works of the Law light shine before others, that they may see your works of the Law good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Did Jesus accomplish bringing the Law to an end like He said He came to do SB? Paul said Jesus did there in Eph2:15. Because Jesus set the Law aside, Jews are not under it, Gentiles never were.

Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them. Matthew 1:21

Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping them and showed us as His example to follow His commandments can be kept through love John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6, John 15:10 and faith Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12. He did not keep the commandments, so we are free to be sinners. Jesus teaches something different- If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and teaching we should keep the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten over man-made-rules. Matthew 15:3-9


Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't sound like Jesus will ever be okay with us not keeping the commandments or teaching others to not keep them and I don't think least means one will be in heaven, but instead is lost. We have free will and can test this theory but those who are in Christ are obedient to Him and subject to the law of God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bob S]

We are told LOVE to God is keeping His commandments 1 John 5:3

Somehow you never seem to get beyond verse three. Had you read what the meaning of God's commands are in chapter three you would have found out just what His commandments are and would have used them in place of trying to explain that "His commandments" are the ten commandments which you always allude.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. Thank you Jesus.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Somehow you never seem to get beyond verse three. Had you read what the meaning of God's commands are in chapter three you would have found out just what His commandments are and would have used them in place of trying to explain that "His commandments" are the ten commandments which you always allude.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. Thank you Jesus.

How does one believe, but not believe in what Jesus stands for or believe in His teachings or not follow the example Jesus gave us? That doesn't sound like a belief system built on a good foundation to me. We should build our foundation on the Rock and not sand.

Matthew 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you serious? I haven't quoted scriptures to back up my arguments!? But in your last post you accused me of "dissecting" scripture. So, which is it!? It seems there is no pleasing you.

I presented the primary argument for the ceremonial nature of the 4th commandment in post 1229 and 1230. (This is where I accidently posted twice.) In this argument I argue mainly that the 4th commandment was the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

I have also argued that the 4th is of the ceremonial genre from Luke 6 and and another poster brought Matthew 12 into the picture since Jesus is very clearly making an analogy between the sabbath by comparing it to other ceremonial type laws. In the case of David, his eating the showbread. And also in Matthew 12 Jesus reminds the Pharisees how the priests every sabbath desecrate the day, yet are innocent!? This clearly infers that that the sabbath law was subject to a higher law -- this higher law being the moral law!

Jesus even brought the temple itself to bear in making his defense! If the sabbath law was moral in nature, why in the world would he bring the temple into his argument since the temple is all about religious ceremonial rituals!? There is no logical connection between the temple's ceremonial rituals and the moral law!

Also, you should look up the noun "ritual". In my mighty fine M-W Collegiate Dictionary, the primary definition reads: the established form for a ceremony. And a portion of the 2nd definition reads: a customarily repeated often formal act or series of acts. The first definition fits the New Covenant sign of Baptism perfectly since this rite is usually a one time act; while the second fits the New Covenant ritual of the Lord's Supper (i.e. Communion) -- a ritual I observe weekly at my church just like you observe weekly a special, sacred day, which you call the sabbath. Give me any moral law that is observed ritually!

And I alluded to Heb 10:1 yesterday wherein the writer explicitly said that the law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming -- not the realities themselves. So...if this is true of the entire Covenant of Law, how much more for any commandment of the ceremonial genre?

And one final thing before I take my leave: You constantly make a big deal of the ten commandments being etched in stone. But you forget a few things.

The Law Covenant was strictly a temporary arrangement. Only the New Covenant is called Eternal. Also, the ten commandments were not the only commandments that were binding. What about other commands in the Book of the Covenant that are as equally as binding such as the prohibitions against homosexual acts, bestiality, the positive commands to act in a just manner to execute justice, etc.? Or where in the ten commandments on the stones is it written to love God with all mind, heart, soul and strength or to love our neighbor as ourselves? It's no wonder Paul could say that he wasn't under the law covenant but rather under the Law of Christ (1Cor 9:21).

Finally, I have stated often that numerous Christians today do keep the 4th commandment -- just not in its Old Covenant form -- but in the New Covenant form, since Christ is our sabbath rest. Yesterday, I gave several ways in which Christ is our "sabbath rest" since the sabbath is a type of Christ. This fact is precisely why Paul could say what he did in Rom 14:5. We have liberty in this matter, which is why Paul essentially said let your conscience be your guide -- be convinced by your conscience. He could have have said just as easily be convinced by the 4th commandment, but he didn't. If someone in his heart of hearts believes one day of the week is more sacred than others, then that's fine. But if someone thinks differently and believes sincerely that every day is alike, that too is fine.

Our commentaries are not scripture.

Not one scripture you quoted say this, which is what you claimed:

1. The weekly Sabbath commandment is ceremonial
2. The weekly Sabbath is not a commandment of God
3. The weekly Sabbath commandment is a shadow in Hebrews or anywhere
4. Any scripture that says we are free to break a commandment of God including the weekly Sabbath commandment
5. Jesus is the weekly Sabbath and we no longer have to obey the Sabbath commandment the way God instructed

You're free to believe what you want, but I would be careful making statements about the Word of God, that you can't back through scripture.

I am going to bow out because I don't think we will come to any agreement on the Word of God and that's okay.

 

[Bob S]

Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them. Matthew 1:21

Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping them and showed us as His example to follow His commandments can be kept through love John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6, John 15:10 and faith Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12. He did not keep the commandments, so we are free to be sinners. Jesus teaches something different- If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 and teaching we should keep the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten over man-made-rules. Matthew 15:3-9


Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't sound like Jesus will ever be okay with us not keeping the commandments or teaching others to not keep them and I don't think least means one will be in heaven, but instead is lost. We have free will and can test this theory but those who are in Christ are obedient to Him and subject to the law of God.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

So fixated on the Law that you couldn't even apologize for making a vividly false statement. Too bad SB, I tried my best to help you to see the precious new covenant Jesus prepared for all mankind. It seems like you prefer to live under the Law or parts of it. Just remember Jesus's ambassador's words in Gal3:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So fixated on the Law that you couldn't even apologize for making a vividly false statement. Too bad SB, I tried my best to help you to see the precious new covenant Jesus prepared for all mankind. It seems like you prefer to live under the Law or parts of it. Just remember Jesus's ambassador's words in Gal3:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Works of the law is when we depend on our own righteousness (right-doing) instead of depending on what God deems righteous (right-doing). All of God's commandments are righteous. Psalms 119:172, Only God's righteousness is saving and sanctifying, ours mean nothing.

 

[Doran]

Somehow, I knew you would not respond positively to my post. I have tried my best to explain what the plan of salvation is all about and you reply with the above statement. First of all, you are wrong about God not giving Gentiles covenants. Adam was a Gentile; Noah was a Gentile and Abraham was a gentile. All were given covenants. You are wrong about what is written in our hearts. We are all one because Jesus came and broke the barrier that divided Jews and Gentiles by doing away with the Law Jews were under. Please do not take my word for this. Study Eph 2 and especially verse 15.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Then study Matt 5:
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your works of the Law light shine before others, that they may see your works of the Law good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Did Jesus accomplish bringing the Law to an end like He said He came to do SB? Paul said Jesus did there in Eph2:15. Because Jesus set the Law aside, Jews are not under it, Gentiles never were.

But what you forget is that God never made any redemptive covenant with the Gentiles. The covenant with Adam was a covenant of works. And the covenant with Noah, who at that time, represented the human race was not redemptive in nature. You also forget that salvation is of the Jews (Jn 4:22) and that the Gentiles (wild olive shoots) have been grafted into the cultivated tree of the Jewish nation (Rom 11:17-24). Even the New Covenant itself was made with Israel (Jer 31:31ff) to and through his Jewish disciples at the Last Supper. Salvation is never said to be of the Gentiles.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Hi SB, we can see you tried hard to defend your Sabbath practice. But to do that, you will eventually add or remove the words in the scriptures.

• As you said, we should not miss a church service – this is obviously adding to the scriptures.
• The Bible said Jesus and His disciples go to the temple as a custom – but you seem to turn a custom into teaching (Matthew 15:9), a checkbox for salvation. Have I misunderstood you?
• I believe you agree the Bible never says we can only read and discuss the scripture on the seventh day - if that is how you keep yourself holy on the seventh day. Even OT does not condemn those who give sacrifices or read the scripture in the temple every day. Or did they break the Sabbath by going to the temple every day according to your understanding? Now, the greater temple is with us (Matthew 12:6). If you were to say the temple is not with us, you would remove the words in John 14:20; but if you were to say the physical church building is the house of God, you would remove the words in Acts 7:48-49.

John 4:21-24
Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”​

• I haven’t seen anyone declaring the seventh day is Sunday (Maybe I missed it). I see we are saying every day is the same - That is magnifying the Sabbath commandment. Plus, God confirmed that we are His building, the altar is with us, and sacrifices are also with us. Like Melchizedek, Job, and Abraham, we royal priests can sacrifice anywhere at any time. We even mentioned that we strive to burn spiritual sacrifices every day. So, your overall statements against us are because we do not set the seventh day higher than the other days. Then, you should show us a verse from the scripture that we are not allowed to worship God every day and keep ourselves holy. By the way, how do you keep a day holy? Isn’t it by being holy yourselves on that day? Or we can only be holy by going to a church?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, we can see you tried hard to defend your Sabbath practice. But to do that, you will eventually add or destroy some parts of the scriptures.

• As you said, we should not miss a church service – this is obviously adding to the scriptures.
• The Bible said Jesus and His disciples go to the temple as a custom – but you seem to turn a custom into teaching (Matthew 15:9), a checkbox for salvation. Have I misunderstood you?
• I believe you agree the Bible never says we can only read and discuss the scripture on the seventh day - if that is how you keep yourself holy on the seventh day. Even OT does not condemn those who give sacrifices or read the scripture in the temple every day. Or did they break the Sabbath by going to the temple every day according to your understanding? Now, the greater temple is with us (Matthew 12:6). If you were to say the temple is not with us, you would destroy the word in John 14:20; but if you were to say the Church building is the house of God, you would destroy the word in Acts 7:48-49.

John 4:21-24
Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”​

• I haven’t seen anyone declaring the seventh day is Sunday (Maybe I missed it). The most I can see is that we say every day is the same - That is magnifying the Sabbath commandment. Plus, God confirmed that we are His building, the altar is with us, and sacrifices are also with us. Like Melchizedek, Job, and Abraham, we royal priests can sacrifice anywhere at any time. We even mentioned that we strive to burn spiritual sacrifices every day. So, your overall statements against us are because we do not set the seventh day higher than the other days. Then, you should show us a verse from the scripture that we are not allowed to worship God every day and keep ourselves holy. By the way, how do you keep a day holy? Isn’t it by being holy yourselves on that day? Or are you trying to say by going to church+reading bible+prayer even if that is not the Sabbath Commandment by GOD?

How will true worshippers be worshipping the Lord in Heaven?

Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Jesus said not to worship in vain by keeping mans-traditions over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 15:3-9. The Sabbath is a commandment of God and part of this unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 personally written by God. Exodus 31:18 that we cannot subtract or add to. Deuteronomy 4:2

The saints keep the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12 I am pretty sure the saints are the saved and not the lost.

How does the Lord tell us to keep His Sabbath now?

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

The Sabbath is a full day to only focus on the Lord, on His holy day.

How did Jesus keep the Sabbath commandment?

Maybe this translation will be easier for you to understand?

Luke 4:16 He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As usual, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read. What He read was God's Word.

The scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath, where God esteemed the Sabbath day above all others in very clear and easy to understand Words that He personally wrote, that is a commandment, which means it's not really up for debate or should be.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

Your argument is not really with me and if people spent half the time obeying God than trying to disprove His very Words, but we have free will and this gets sorted out soon enough.

Take care and God bless you in seeking His Word.

Signing out for now.

PS I never said we should never miss church service; you did not quote me saying this either because its not something I ever said. If one is sick should we be at church getting others sick? Of course not, but we can still honor God on His holy Sabbath day by worshipping Him a full day at home. Does God want us to be of one body and fellowship with others? Yes, which is why Jesus was usually at the Temple on the Sabbath reading God's Word as our example to follow.

 

[Bob S]

But what you forget is that God never made any redemptive covenant with the Gentiles.

Are you chastising me for my statement to SB? I don't remember redemptive value being discussed, so why would you chastise me for something that was not mentioned? My theory is to pick your fights, not everything is worthy of fighting over. I realize that you are not fighting me, but you are attempting to put me down. If you want to discuss the redemptive value of the covenants, I would be happy to do so. Start a thread.

The covenant with Adam was a covenant of works. And the covenant with Noah, who at that time, represented the human race was not redemptive in nature. You also forget that salvation is of the Jews (Jn 4:22) and that the Gentiles (wild olive shoots) have been grafted into the cultivated tree of the Jewish nation (Rom 11:17-24). Even the New Covenant itself was made with Israel (Jer 31:31ff) to and through his Jewish disciples at the Last Supper. Salvation is never said to be of the Gentiles.

You seem to have forgotten about Abraham. I assumed he was a Gentile. Now as to being grafted, why did you bring that into the conversation? I don't believe your theory, but that too is a subject you can start a thread if you think you have the answers. You might be surprised my friend. Anyway, I am glad you are posting and I have enjoyed reading your previous thoughts.

 

[Doran]

So fixated on the Law that you couldn't even apologize for making a vividly false statement. Too bad SB, I tried my best to help you to see the precious new covenant Jesus prepared for all mankind. It seems like you prefer to live under the Law or parts of it. Just remember Jesus's ambassador's words in Gal3:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Apparently, SB also has never read Rom 3:20, Gal 2:16, etc.