How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

[Leaf473]

Again, those who are under the the law are those who transgress the law.

Well, Jesus was born under the law.

And there were certain people in Galatia who wanted to be under the law. Were they insane? Who would want to transgress the law, or be under its curse? I don't think that's what Under the law means.

 

[HARK!]

Well, I'll give two answers. I believe both are true. You can respond to one, both, or neither

I know in the same way that I can clearly see God's divine qualities in creation. An atheist might ask, But how do you know it's God? I can't put it into words, but I know. I assume you can see those same divine qualities. How would you answer the atheist? I think it's probably the same situation.

Or, I know in the same way that Abraham knew it was God who said,
Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you. NIV

Abraham could have said, That sure doesn't sound like God. Must be a deceiving spirit.

John tells us to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How do you test the spirits?

 

[HARK!]

I'll take your word for it on the Hebrew. And the Greek word for faith?

YHWH used the Hebrew word enumah, in a concrete language, to deliver his message. That word was then translated into the abstract language of Greek. By studying which language do you believe that we can get a better understanding of what YHWH actually meant?

 

[HARK!]

And there were certain people in Galatia who wanted to be under the law. Were they insane? Who would want to transgress the law, or be under its curse? I don't think that's what Under the law means.

I think that you are misunderstanding Paul. Who in Galatia wanted to be under the law?

Are you suggesting that Paul was under the law?

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

Are you suggesting that Paul taught his disciples to be under the law?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

 

[Guojing]

Well, hang on there... I asked about your view. Since we're giving straight answers, I doubt that you have to know what my view is in order to say what your view is.
_____________
I'm going to say that salvation can't be lost by members of the Body of Christ during this current dispensation, though I don't have a strong opinion about it.

Once you believed that, then you know that Paul cannot be referring to us in the Body of Christ in Romans 11:18.

Instead, he is referring to gentiles who were under the gospel of the kingdom/circumcision.

Even in the OT, there were unbelieving Jews as well as believing gentiles.

Only Jews and gentiles who believe and willing to follow the covenant of Law are considered part of the olive tree, which is a representation of true Israel.

They, need to endure to the end to be considered saved, they can be cut off if, for example, they take the mark of the beast (Romans 11:22)

 

[Leaf473]

John tells us to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How do you test the spirits?

As far as 1 John 4 goes, we look to see if the spirit puts forward the idea that Jesus the Messiah has come in the flesh.
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. NIV

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is just another spirit to be tested?

 

[Leaf473]

YHWH used the Hebrew word enumah, in a concrete language, to deliver his message. That word was then translated into the abstract language of Greek. By studying which language do you believe that we can get a better understanding of what YHWH actually meant?

Both, but I think Greek would have preeminence, because it's the language that God chose to reveal his truths to the church:
1 Timothy 3
These things I write to you, hoping to come to you shortly; 15 but if I wait long, {I write so} that you may know how people ought to behave themselves in God’s house, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[Leaf473]

I think that you are misunderstanding Paul. Who in Galatia wanted to be under the law?

Are you suggesting that Paul was under the law?

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

Are you suggesting that Paul taught his disciples to be under the law?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Well, let's see,
Who in Galatia wanted to be under the law?
Based on the context in Galatians, those who were on the wrong side of Paul's teaching.

Are you suggesting that Paul was under the law?
Well, he was at one point in his life, yes. In Philippians 3, he is looking backwards, about persecuting the church and stuff.

Are you suggesting that Paul taught his disciples to be under the law?
No, quite the opposite. Also, he didn't teach that the law was bad, but that it was good and wise.

Please remember in all this that Jesus was under the law, Christians are in a different condition.

 

[Leaf473]

Once you believed that, then you know that Paul cannot be referring to us in the Body of Christ in Romans 11:18.

Instead, he is referring to gentiles who were under the gospel of the kingdom/circumcision.

Even in the OT, there were unbelieving Jews as well as believing gentiles.

Only Jews and gentiles who believe and willing to follow the covenant of Law are considered part of the olive tree, which is a representation of true Israel.

They, need to endure to the end to be considered saved, they can be cut off if, for example, they take the mark of the beast (Romans 11:22)

Okay... Following that train of thought, then, the olive tree, including the root, would be the true Israel.

So, "Jews and gentiles who believe and willing to follow the covenant of Law", are they different from "believers" as used in the New Testament?

 

[HARK!]

As far as 1 John 4 goes, we look to see if the spirit puts forward the idea that Jesus the Messiah has come in the flesh.
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. NIV

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is just another spirit to be tested?

You have presented a loaded question.

(CLV) 1Jn 4:2
In this you know the spirit of God: every spirit which is avowing Jesus Christ, having come in flesh, is of God,

How do you draw a distinction between every Ruach of Elohim and the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, and every other deceiving "spirit?"

 

[HARK!]

Both, but I think Greek would have preeminence, because it's the language that God chose to reveal his truths to the church:

YHWH spoke to the "church" at Siniai.

(CLV) Ac 7:35
"This Moses, whom they disown, saying, `Who constitutes you a chief and a justice over us?' this one has God commissioned to be a chief as well as a redeemer, a justice, with the hand of the messenger who was seen by him in the thorn bush.

(CLV) Ac 7:36
This man led them out, doing miracles and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

(CLV) Ac 7:37
This is the Moses who says to the sons of Israel: A Prophet will God be raising up to you from among your brethren, as me.

(CLV) Ac 7:38
This is he who came to be in the ecclesia in the wilderness with the messenger, who speaks to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who receives the living oracles to give to you,

(CLV) Ac 7:39
to whom our fathers are not willing to become obedient, but they thrust him away, and turned to Egypt in their hearts,

He spoke to "the church" in Hebrew. Yahshua also spoke Hebrew. He read from the scriptures in Hebrew. Surely Yahshua knew what YHWH meant.

 

[HARK!]

Are you suggesting that Paul was under the law?

Paul stated that he was obedient to the law, blameless.


(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


If we obey the Torah; we are not under the cures of the Torah.

Are you suggesting that Paul taught his disciples to be under the law?

Paul taught his disciples to imitate him as he imitated Messiah.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Are you suggesting that Messiah didn't obey our Father's perfect Torah?

 

[Leaf473]

You have presented a loaded question.

(CLV) 1Jn 4:2
In this you know the spirit of God: every spirit which is avowing Jesus Christ, having come in flesh, is of God,

How do you draw a distinction between every Ruach of Elohim and the Ruach Ha'Kodesh, and every other deceiving "spirit?"

I believe that was my point, if I'm following you right. The test in 1 John 4 was about testing lots of spirits. John starts by connecting this with false prophets.

So in the context, I think it's talking about what to do when someone comes along claiming to have a message or teaching from God. How you can recognize that they have the Spirit of God is if they endorse the idea that Jesus the Messiah has come in the flesh.

Obviously, that test was for a particular time and place, because there are many groups today that say the Messiah has come in the flesh but I doubt have the spirit of God, such as Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses.

I thought earlier you were asking about how I perceive that I am led by the Holy Spirit. Did I misunderstand? Were you asking about people who bring false teachings?

 

[Leaf473]

YHWH spoke to the "church" at Siniai.

(CLV) Ac 7:35
"This Moses, whom they disown, saying, `Who constitutes you a chief and a justice over us?' this one has God commissioned to be a chief as well as a redeemer, a justice, with the hand of the messenger who was seen by him in the thorn bush.

(CLV) Ac 7:36
This man led them out, doing miracles and signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

(CLV) Ac 7:37
This is the Moses who says to the sons of Israel: A Prophet will God be raising up to you from among your brethren, as me.

(CLV) Ac 7:38
This is he who came to be in the ecclesia in the wilderness with the messenger, who speaks to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who receives the living oracles to give to you,

(CLV) Ac 7:39
to whom our fathers are not willing to become obedient, but they thrust him away, and turned to Egypt in their hearts,

He spoke to "the church" in Hebrew. Yahshua also spoke Hebrew. He read from the scriptures in Hebrew. Surely Yahshua knew what YHWH meant.

Yes, I understand that Israel at Sinai was referred to as the assembly, which I agree is connected to the church/assembly.

However, Israel at Sinai was not called the pillar and ground of the truth. Or was it? I don't think so, but maybe there's a passage that's not coming to mind.

Had Jesus learned Hebrew? Possibly. His family was poor, so maybe they could send him to Hebrew school, maybe not. I could agree that he spoke Aramaic, since that was the common language of the common people. So I've heard.

Did Jesus read from the scriptures in Hebrew? In Luke 4, it appears that he's reading out of the septuagent.

But I don't doubt that Jesus knew what the Lord meant. He taught as one having authority. Amen to that!

 

[Leaf473]

Paul stated that he was obedient to the law, blameless.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

Yes, and he also persecuted the church. That's in the past.

 

[Leaf473]

If we obey the Torah; we are not under the cures of the Torah.

I'm assuming you mean "curses". And that's true.

However, Jesus was born under the law. I don't think Jesus was born under the curses of the law.

 

[Leaf473]

Paul taught his disciples to imitate him as he imitated Messiah.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Are you suggesting that Messiah didn't obey our Father's perfect Torah?

Right, but of course that doesn't mean we do everything that Jesus did, things like be a carpenter's apprentice and live in a Roman colony.

Jesus was under the law, and he kept it perfectly. The problem with trying to say that we should then also be under the law is that just a few verses later Paul speaks derisively of those who want to be under the law.

 

[HARK!]

So in the context, I think it's talking about what to do when someone comes along claiming to have a message or teaching from God. How you can recognize that they have the Spirit of God is if they endorse the idea that Jesus the Messiah has come in the flesh.

So is that the only qualification? Are you asserting that anyone who teaches false teachings, with the preamble that Yahshua, Ha'Mashiach has come in the flesh, should be accepted.

Let's review verse 1.

(CLV) 1Jn 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit,

He gives us an instruction.

but test the spirits to see if they are of God,

He gives us another instruction.

for many false prophets have come out into the world.

Then he gives us a reason for these instruction.

Obviously, that test was for a particular time and place, because there are many groups today that say the Messiah has come in the flesh but I doubt have the spirit of God, such as Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses.

You seem to be indicating here that, the preamble that Yahshua, Ha'Mashiach has come in the flesh, is not the only qualification for testing the spirits.

You seems to be indicating here that there are still false prophets. Do you not believe that this verse is not as valid today, as in the day that it was written?

I thought earlier you were asking about how I perceive that I am led by the Holy Spirit. Did I misunderstand? Were you asking about people who bring false teachings?

3 questions:

1.) Do you not believe that spirits speak through men?

2.) Do you not believe that all men who proclaim that Yahshua, Ha'Mashiach has come in the flesh, are led by the Ruach Ha'Kodesh in all of their words, and by no "other" spirits?

3.) How do you test their words?

 

[HARK!]

I'm assuming you mean "curses". And that's true.

However, Jesus was born under the law. I don't think Jesus was born under the curses of the law.

(CLV) Gn 3:14
Then Yahweh Elohim said to the serpent: Because you have done this, Cursed shall you be away from every domestic beast And from every animal of the field! On your torso shall you crawl, And soil shall you eat all the days of your life.

(CLV) Gn 3:15
And I shall set enmity between you and the woman And between your seed and her Seed. He shall hurt you in the head, And you shall hurt Him in the heel.

(CLV) Gn 3:16
And to the woman He said: I shall increase, yea increase your grief And the groanings of your pregnancy. In grief shall you bear children; Yet by your husband is your restoration. And he shall rule over you.

(CLV) Gn 3:17
And to Adam He said: Because you hearkened to your wife's voice and ate from the only tree that I instructed you, saying you must not eat from it, Cursed is the ground ion your account; In grief shall you eat of it all the days of your life.

 

[Leaf473]

So is that the only qualification? Are you asserting that anyone who teaches false teachings, with the preamble that Yahshua, Ha'Mashiach has come in the flesh, should be accepted.

No, I was saying the opposite. That's obviously not how it works.