Aussies - what are your thoughts on moving Australia Day?

[Yaaten]

Did you know that Australia is the only Commonwealth nation that doesn’t have a treaty with its Indigenous people?

And we don't need one either. Official treaties are concluded between nations, by the governments of those nations, not between the government of a nation and the people it rules. A "treaty" would be absurd, because the aboriginal tribes are not nations.

 

[eclipsenow]

You are 100% correct, and I'll be even blunter; the only people who want the date changed are those uneducated, lazy upper-middle class far-left millennials who like to vote Green and think we should all be ashamed of ourselves if we happen to be white. Everyone else sees this as being a non-issue, and just wants to be left in peace to celebrate this holiday without all the silly drama that now surrounds it.

I'm X-gen, lower-middle class, somewhat educated (Advanced Diploma in Social Sciences) and have met your type before. I don't expect to change your mind or really even care about your opinion. You can be as rude as you want - but you're on the wrong side of history on this one! With Voices to Parliament coming, Australia Day WILL change one day. Stop crying about it and drink a bucket of concrete and harden up.

People in both my generation and younger generations CARE DEEPLY about what colonialism has done around the world and especially in Australia. And yes, in this context that means criticising largely white people. Learn some history, and toughen up, because there IS history and CURRENT PRACTICES to address. The economic and health and even lifespan gaps are all documented and appalling. But that's not for you! It's for people who can bother to get edumecated! (As Homer Simpson would try and say!)

I'll hand you over to Stan Grant's story about his mum trying to see the queen.
----


The school said no socks, no go for the trip to Dubbo to see the Queen. Mum's older brother had made the royal trek a day earlier and met mum at the back fence between the primary and high schools and threw his socks over.

It is a memory that has stayed with mum. She has told me the story many times — wearing her brother's cast-off socks to see the Queen.

Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh — pictured in Bathurst — toured NSW by train in 1954.(ABC Archives)
It is one of the rich memories of a long life. And she has other memories, other stories that she has told me.

Stories of her father being tied to a tree like a dog by police and left all day without food or water to swelter in the sun.

Seeing Aboriginal men arrested for drinking alcohol and roped together and marched down the main street of her hometown.

Stories of two younger brothers who died as children.

Stories of her siblings taken to welfare homes. Stories of aching hunger. Of once following a white girl eating a cake around the schoolyard and pouncing on a crumb that the girl dropped. My mother still says it was the best cake she ever tasted.

The girl with no socks got to see the Queen, while her family and other black families lived in poverty that the Crown inflicted on them. Living homeless in a land that had been stolen from them in the name of the Crown.

Catch up on all the news about the passing of Queen Elizabeth II from our blog

• Read our full coverage of the death of Queen Elizabeth II

We aren't supposed to talk about this
I called my mother this week and she told me the story of her childhood brush with royalty over again. I have thought about mum and dad and all of my family, of my people — First Nations people — who die young and live impoverished and imprisoned lives in this country.

We aren't supposed to talk about these things this week. We aren't supposed to talk about colonisation, empire, violence about Aboriginal sovereignty, not even about the republic.
Everyone from the prime minister down has told us it is not appropriate.

I'm sure I am not alone amongst Indigenous people wrestling with swirling emotions. Among them has been anger. The choking asphyxiating anger at the suffering and injustice my people endure.
As my colleagues have worn black in mourning for the Queen, I've wrestled with asphyxiating anger — and I'm not alone

 

[Yaaten]

I'm X-gen, lower-middle class, somewhat educated (Advanced Diploma in Social Sciences) and have met your type before. I don't expect to change your mind or really even care about your opinion. You can be as rude as you want - but you're on the wrong side of history on this one! With Voices to Parliament coming, Australia Day WILL change one day. Stop crying about it and drink a bucket of concrete and harden up.

My "type"? What is that supposed to mean? I don't expect to change anyone's mind here either (that would be an unrealistic expectation), but I DO expect not to be INSULTED like this. You do know that personal abuse on this site is against the rules. Criticise what I believe all you like, I don't care, but if you decide to become abusive you will be reported.
How was I "rude" here? And no, I am not on the "wrong side of history"; Australia Day will never change and we will never become a silly "republic", so just deal with it.

 

[eclipsenow]

My "type"? What is that supposed to mean? I don't expect to change anyone's mind here either (that would be an unrealistic expectation), but I DO expect not to be INSULTED like this. You do know that personal abuse on this site is against the rules. Criticise what I believe all you like, I don't care, but if you decide to become abusive you will be reported.

This from the guy that wrote:

the only people who want the date changed are those uneducated, lazy upper-middle class far-left millennials who like to vote Green and think we should all be ashamed of ourselves if we happen to be white.
​

But go you! You tell yourself you're on the side of the Angels.

I am not on the "wrong side of history"; Australia Day will never change and we will never become a silly "republic", so just deal with it.

"Never" is a long time. Have a nice day.

 

[Yaaten]

This from the guy that wrote:

the only people who want the date changed are those uneducated, lazy upper-middle class far-left millennials who like to vote Green and think we should all be ashamed of ourselves if we happen to be white.
​

But go you! You tell yourself you're on the side of the Angels.




"Never" is a long time. Have a nice day.

It isn't an insult if it's actually true.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

the only people who want the date changed are those uneducated, lazy upper-middle class far-left millennials

Hey - if they're "uneducated" and "lazy" but still manage to be "upper middle class" by their late 30s then these people must be doing something right.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hey - if they're "uneducated" and "lazy" but still manage to be "upper middle class" by their late 30s then these people must be doing something right.

Ha ha - there is that!

 

[eclipsenow]

Well - as this seems to be the Aussie thread - what about I bring in the Republic? Even though I might be for the Voices to Parliament and moving Australia Day - I'm not progressive on this.

My questions are systemic: what would it do to Australian politics to have an all-out campaign for who would be President? How much money would electing a President cost every appointment? An additional cost when we cannot even employ enough nurses and teachers - let alone pay the ones we have fairly!
If the President is to have more powers, what are they? If not, why change the system in the first place if it serves no actual purpose? I'm against wasting all the money and effort in electing a President if nothing of substance is going to improve. Seriously - who cares if a mere LOGO changes on government stationery!

Want a Referendum? How about having a Referendum on who can call a Referendum? Our current process is stuck in the mud - only politicians can call one. How about if we the citizens of this country had the right to call a referendum? What if a significant number signed a petition and could call a referendum? What if every 10 years a large citizen's panel - much like a jury selection - reviewed and debated hot topics? What if (assuming say 60% of the panel agreed) they could put one question to the people? Both a citizen's petition and panel might bash the Australian Constitution into a more democratic shape vastly more than just changing a letterhead on government stationery!

This is where I can actually agree with a Liberal.

Meanwhile, former Liberal senator and chairman of the Australian Monarchist League, Eric Abetz, said there was no need for change.

"We do not have a governor-general that can make his own laws — it has to go through the parliament," he said.

"That's the beauty of the constitutional monarchy."

"Might I just say on a democratic index, the top 10 democratic countries, seven out of those 10 are constitutional monarchies," he said.

"There's a lot to be said for our wonderful system."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-24/australian-republic-movement-resurfaces-after-queens-death/​

 

[Yaaten]

What if every 10 years a large citizen's panel - much like a jury selection - reviewed and debated hot topics?

We already have one of those; it's called a parliament. In any case, how would you go about selecting the right citizens for the task? What qualifications would they need, if any? How (and by whom) would the "hot topics" be decided upon?
It sounds like a really bad idea to me.

 

[Yaaten]

Hey - if they're "uneducated" and "lazy" but still manage to be "upper middle class" by their late 30s then these people must be doing something right.

I guess you're not familiar with the concept of hereditary wealth, the (not at all surprising) tendency of those who are mega-millionaires or upper-middle class to come from families that already have tonnes of money (ex. Elon Musk), or important connections with influential individuals, or both.

 

[eclipsenow]

We already have one of those; it's called a parliament.

Which is the problem - not the solution.
Other countries have a bunch of ways citizens can be involved and initiate a referendum.

In any case, how would you go about selecting the right citizens for the task?

All good questions - and I (vaguely) remember there being a variety of approaches in different countries? But remember - if the question is alarming or odd - "we the people" can always vote no! So I guess the question is do you want more democracy or less? Why are we going to waste 10's of millions on what could amount to a mere letterhead change? Let's all vote for a Republic of Australia and replace the Union Jack with a tacky flying kangaroo or something - yeah - that will improve our lives!

 

[Yaaten]

Which is the problem - not the solution.
Other countries have a bunch of ways citizens can be involved and initiate a referendum.


All good questions - and I (vaguely) remember there being a variety of approaches in different countries? But remember - if the question is alarming or odd - "we the people" can always vote no! So I guess the question is do you want more democracy or less? Why are we going to waste 10's of millions on what could amount to a mere letterhead change? Let's all vote for a Republic of Australia and replace the Union Jack with a tacky flying kangaroo or something - yeah - that will improve our lives!

You seem to be under the impression I want Australia to become a republic, but no, I don't actually. I'm a monarchist.

 

[eclipsenow]

You seem to be under the impression I want Australia to become a republic, but no, I don't actually. I'm a monarchist.

You didn't answer the questions did you?

 

[Yaaten]

You didn't answer the questions did you?

I didn't know I had to answer them.
"But remember - if the question is alarming or odd - "we the people" can always vote no!"
You have an alarming faith in the ability of the average person to exercise common sense when it comes to making choices like this. I do not.
"So I guess the question is do you want more democracy or less?"
Neither. What we have right now is good enough. Let's not try to "improve" things and in the process wind up screwing things up completely.

 

[Paidiske]

Wasn't there a citizens' council during Julia Gillard's time as prime minister, to canvas climate change issues? My memory is fuzzy, but we've done something like that in recent history. I'm not sure it had much impact.

As for moving Australia day, I'm honestly pretty indifferent. I'm not sure moving the day is going to achieve much in terms of actual outcomes for Indigenous people's lives. I'd rather see that energy go into health services and the like. That said, that day or any other day, a public holiday's always welcome, no?

 

[eclipsenow]

Wasn't there a citizens' council during Julia Gillard's time as prime minister, to canvas climate change issues? My memory is fuzzy, but we've done something like that in recent history. I'm not sure it had much impact.

Completely different thing - that was more like a consultative council about possible policy outcomes. IE: a smaller means of asking the people what we should do about one law on one thing. But the council / panel I'm talking about would be a decent sized body that would meet every 10 years to hear evidence and consider whether or not anything to do with the Constitution needed changing. Then, of course, they propose a question. Then, of course, we the people get to vote NO if we don't like it.

Think about it in terms of computers. The citizen's climate council was more like asking for input on software. What I'm talking about is evaluating the Operating System that software runs out of in the first place!

As for moving Australia day, I'm honestly pretty indifferent. I'm not sure moving the day is going to achieve much in terms of actual outcomes for Indigenous people's lives.

I hear you on one level - because what we want are substantive policies that equalise opportunity and help close the awful gap in socio-economic and health outcomes.

BUT I completely disagree on another level. I think we're comparatively of the same generation, and basically, we've got no idea. My kid's generation learned SO much more about Aboriginal civilisation before us Europeans got involved that they're outraged that Terra Nulluis was ever a thing. That, in effect, it is still a thing. That we celebrate Invasion Day as our national holiday.

So I guess if you were Polish and were asked to celebrate the day the Nazi's invaded, you'd be OK with that then?

 

[Paidiske]

BUT I completely disagree on another level. I think we're comparatively of the same generation, and basically, we've got no idea. My kid's generation learned SO much more about Aboriginal civilisation before us Europeans got involved that they're outraged that Terra Nulluis was ever a thing. That, in effect, it is still a thing. That we celebrate Invasion Day as our national holiday.

So I guess if you were Polish and were asked to celebrate the day the Nazi's invaded, you'd be OK with that then?

I think my take would be slightly different, and that is that there is no prescribed form or content for Australia day. If you want to observe it as a solemn day of remembrance and mourning, or public protest, you can. If you want to drape yourself in the Aussie flag and drink silly amounts of beer on the beach, you can. But the fact of its existence as a public holiday doesn't force us to celebrate it in any particular way. So it's a bit of a case of, it is what you make of it. And we are each free to make of it what we feel it should be.

Imagine if groups of us took the opportunity of not having to work that day, to do something practical to benefit Indigenous communities? Just as an example of what a creative response might be.

 

[eclipsenow]

I think my take would be slightly different, and that is that there is no prescribed form or content for Australia day. If you want to observe it as a solemn day of remembrance and mourning, or public protest, you can. If you want to drape yourself in the Aussie flag and drink silly amounts of beer on the beach, you can.

At a surface level this sounds all fine and democratic.
Except you're posting it as a white person in a country us white folk invaded - and perpetuated all manner of war crimes against the indigenous civilisation that was well and truly there.

But the fact of its existence as a public holiday doesn't force us to celebrate it in any particular way. So it's a bit of a case of, it is what you make of it.

No it isn't - it's just another case of white imperialism telling the First Nations what they should do. You're telling them it's Invasion Day - and they can make of it what they want.

Imagine if groups of us took the opportunity of not having to work that day, to do something practical to benefit Indigenous communities? Just as an example of what a creative response might be.

Great - us white folk are going to help the black folk one day a year. Hooray! They're saved! After already saying it's what we make of it - and we're free to lie on our backs at the beach if we want.

I have another proposal. First Nations owned it first. For 60,000 years. Us white folk invaded. We've told them what to do and where and how to live for centuries - and only in 1967 even bothered to count them as citizens of this country!

Australia Day's sort of been celebrated for a while - but only really became a universal public holiday across all states in 1994. Our understanding of it has evolved over time. We invented it. We can reinvent it.

How about, just for once, we keep our mouths shut? We ask the first nations what day they want to celebrate being part of this nation? Australia Day is still a relatively young invention. Want it to be democratically decided? How about we give this one to Australia's First Nations to vote on! And us and all our white entitlement can take one of their decisions on our behalf for a change!

 

[Paidiske]

Except you're posting it as a white person in a country us white folk invaded...

I'm just going to pause here and note that although I'm white, I'm also a migrant, and I don't count myself amongst the "us" who invaded (or whose ancestors invaded). I have my own complicated cultural reckoning with racism to do, and I'm as invested in building a just future for Australia as the next citizen, but I'm not going to accept the mantle of hereditary guilt here.

No it isn't - it's just another case of white imperialism telling the First Nations what they should do. You're telling them it's Invasion Day - and they can make of it what they want.

Not exactly. I'm saying I'm fine if we move it. But if we don't move it, we're also free to turn it to the best use we can. It doesn't have to be a case of only the worst stereotypes existing without any room for creative or intentional engagement.

How about, just for once, we keep our mouths shut? We ask the first nations what day they want to celebrate being part of this nation?

Oh good grief. You started the thread, and you didn't specify that you were only looking for answers from Indigenous people. So berating other people for participating now seems a bit much. If, two years or so later, you don't want the conversation to keep going, you can always ask the mods to close the thread.

 

[eclipsenow]

I'm just going to pause here and note that although I'm white, I'm also a migrant,

My parents were hardly on the First Fleet either - but immigrated from Britain in their lifetimes. So what? I'm still white and privileged for it.

and I don't count myself amongst the "us" who invaded (or whose ancestors invaded).

You have that luxury to think about your identity and choose how you see yourself. If you're First Nations - others have chosen how to see you for you. They've chosen to celebrate their national day on the day your civilisation was invaded!

I have my own complicated cultural reckoning with racism to do, and I'm as invested in building a just future for Australia as the next citizen, but I'm not going to accept the mantle of hereditary guilt here.

Hey - I didn't force you to say you'd rather force First Nations people to just 'Observe it' however they chose. It seems most would be happier celebrating it on almost any day other than Invasion Day.

Not exactly. I'm saying I'm fine if we move it.

OK - we'll that's the first I've understood you to be saying that. Why is that? Where did you even imply that up thread?

Oh good grief. You started the thread, and you didn't specify that you were only looking for answers from Indigenous people. So berating other people for participating now seems a bit much. If, two years or so later, you don't want the conversation to keep going, you can always ask the mods to close the thread.

No - I'm being provocative to help you think things through from another perspective! And where did I say I only wanted First Nations Australians to comment here? I was just trying to turn it around to show how entitled we automatically are when we put forward our suggestions for them to abide by. What if it were the other way around? But now you have said you're fine with it moving - and if you mean that - I'll put our disagreement down to some form of 'communication noise'.