Aussies - what are your thoughts on moving Australia Day?

[eclipsenow]

FOR MOVING AUSTRALIA DAY TO ANOTHER DAY:-
1. A day of national celebration *could* occur on another day to CELEBRATE what we have in Australia now.
2. This would free the day from appearing to "celebrate" what our indigenous Australians see as "Invasion Day" and a precursor to the genocide/s that were about to occur. As the wiki says: "Some Australians regard Australia Day as a symbol of the adverse impacts of British settlement on Australia's Indigenous peoples.[53] In 1888, prior to the first centennial anniversary of the First Fleet landing on 26 January 1788, New South Wales premier Henry Parkes was asked about inclusion of Aboriginal people in the celebrations. He replied: "And remind them that we have robbed them?"[54]"
Australia Day - Wikipedia
3. We are a young nation, officially formed on New Year's Day 1901 - and Australia Day has 'only' been celebrated nation wide since 1935. We can change the day we celebrate this country if we want to. (How - referendum?)
4. It takes a lot to make Aussies go to a protest and there are tens of thousands of people now protesting our national day. "Thousands of people participate in protest marches in capital cities on Invasion Day/Australia Day; estimates for the 2018 protest in Melbourne range into tens of thousands.[56][57][58][59]"

FOR KEEPING ON 26 JAN:
1: European settlement - with all the good and bad that brought with it - is the forge that smelted the Australia we want to celebrate today, and 26th January is a historically significant day to celebrate the good in Australia.
2: Who said a national day can only celebrate the good? Can't we also commemorate and mourn the bad as well - and pay honour to those victims of our genocides in much the same way as we commemorate ANZAC day? A day of national celebration can be nuanced and remember the good and the bad in both speeches, performances, and monuments. We could start the day almost like ANZAC day with a lament for the bad - and then in the afternoon move onto the Australia Day awards and celebrating the good.
We are an educated people hopefully capable of holding more than one thought in our heads at a time.
3. What day would we move it to? The day we federated is the 1st January 1901 - so that day might involve too many hangovers from another very Aussie style of celebrating! (Not that I endorse that kind of celebrating - if you know what I mean?)

 

[Aussie Pete]

Controversial topic - so please be polite in the comments. But what are your thoughts on moving Australia Day?

FOR MOVING:-
1. A day of national celebration *could* occur on another day to CELEBRATE what we have in Australia now.
2. This would free the day from appearing to "celebrate" what our indigenous Australians see as "Invasion Day" and a precursor to the genocide/s that were about to occur. As the wiki says: "Some Australians regard Australia Day as a symbol of the adverse impacts of British settlement on Australia's Indigenous peoples.[53] In 1888, prior to the first centennial anniversary of the First Fleet landing on 26 January 1788, New South Wales premier Henry Parkes was asked about inclusion of Aboriginal people in the celebrations. He replied: "And remind them that we have robbed them?"[54]"
Australia Day - Wikipedia
3. We are a young nation, officially formed on New Year's Day 1901 - and Australia Day has 'only' been celebrated nation wide since 1935. We can change the day we celebrate this country if we want to. (How - referendum?)
4. It takes a lot to make Aussies go to a protest and there are tens of thousands of people now protesting our national day. "Thousands of people participate in protest marches in capital cities on Invasion Day/Australia Day; estimates for the 2018 protest in Melbourne range into tens of thousands.[56][57][58][59]"

AGAINST MOVING IT from 26 JAN:
1: European settlement - with all the good and bad that brought with it - is the forge that smelted the Australia we want to celebrate today, and 26th January is a historically significant day to celebrate the good in Australia.
2: Who said a national day can only celebrate the good? Can't we also commemorate and mourn the bad as well - and pay honour to those victims of our genocides in much the same way as we commemorate ANZAC day? A day of national celebration can be nuanced and remember the good and the bad in both speeches, performances, and monuments. We are an educated people hopefully capable of holding more than one thought in our heads at a time.
3. What day would we move it to? The day we federated is the 1st January 1901 - so that day might involve too many hangovers from another very Aussie style of celebrating! (Not that I endorse that kind of celebrating - if you know what I mean?)

Dumbest idea ever. Well, not dumbest, but just no.

 

[eclipsenow]

Dumbest idea ever. Well, not dumbest, but just no.

Can anyone be be blunter? The irony is this kind of blunt response just makes me want to retract point 2 for KEEPING Australia on 26th January where I said: "We are an educated people hopefully capable of holding more than one thought in our heads at a time."

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I can be blunter. There was nothing to invade. Considering that the aborigines didn't even practice agriculture, there was nothing to take from them either. Australia is a product of British settlement. Before then it was a wilderness.

 

[Occams Barber]

I wrote this for a similar thread back in 2018:

There have been Australians in Australia for 60,000 years. That’s 60,000 years of Australian history and pre-history before the British arrived in 1788.

While the arrival of British colonisation is a major event in Australia’s history, to suggest that it is the event we should commemorate as a national celebration for all Australians effectively ignores all that was before the British arrived. It also ignores the negative impact that a colonial presence has had, and is still having, on Indigenous Australians.

We need a day that has a positive meaning for all Australians. As well as our Indigenous people we now have Australians who originate from all over Europe, from India, from Asia, from the Americas and from Africa. The cultural significance of a British act of colonisation is slowly being diluted by Australians for whom Britishness is not a part of their cultural heritage.

We need a new Australia Day to celebrate the fact that we all own Australia.

OB​

 

[Occams Barber]

I can be blunter. There was nothing to invade. Considering that the aborigines didn't even practice agriculture, there was nothing to take from them either. Australia is a product of British settlement. Before then it was a wilderness.

Reading your post, it was difficult not to respond in kind to what amounts to an insult to all indigenous people – including, but not limited to, Australia’s indigenous population.

To suggest that a land has no value based on your assumptions about what should be done with it indicates a smug sense of cultural superiority combined with an astounding ignorance of the nature of the land and its people.

Australians have lived successfully in this country for 60,000 years. Australia is not Europe or North America. It has no herdable animals, a soil generally deficient in phosphates, limited seasonality, extreme heat and little available water. Australia is the driest continent on earth. 70% of this country is desert.

In spite of these disadvantages, Australians developed techniques covering replanting native foods, the maintenance of grazing lands using fire, fish farming and conservation of wild food sources. Because these methods are different, they don't meet the European conception of ‘agriculture’. Australian indigenous agriculture relied on maintaining and enhancing food sources already in the natural environment as opposed to the ‘rip out and replace’ methods of European farming.

I can understand you not knowing anything about this country, but it’s usually a good idea to educate yourself, just a little, before making this type of ill-informed and insulting judgement.

“Was a wilderness?” – to a European/North American eye, 80% of this country would still be seen as wilderness after 230 years of ‘British’ settlement.

OB

 

[Aussie Pete]

Can anyone be be blunter? The irony is this kind of blunt response just makes me want to retract point 2 for KEEPING Australia on 26th January where I said: "We are an educated people hopefully capable of holding more than one thought in our heads at a time."

I've had a good amount of time to consider the issue. It's a lot deeper than just a celebration day. The debate is symptomatic of the blame game/make someone pay/I'm not responsible culture that infests modern society. I'm English by birth. My country was invaded by Vikings, Romans, Normans and no doubt others. My country was bombed by Germany relentlessly. Even in WW1. My great grandfather was German by birth and interned during the war. Hey, who do I sue for these terrible injustices. Now someone I've never met expects me to grovel in apology for something I never did. As an aside, my ex wife is part aborigine and my kids identify as aborigine. Good for them. That's their right and I would never argue with their choice.

 

[eclipsenow]

Reading your post, it was difficult not to respond in kind to what amounts to an insult to all indigenous people – including, but not limited to, Australia’s indigenous population.

To suggest that a land has no value based on your assumptions about what should be done with it indicates a smug sense of cultural superiority combined with an astounding ignorance of the nature of the land and its people.

Australians have lived successfully in this country for 60,000 years. Australia is not Europe or North America. It has no herdable animals, a soil generally deficient in phosphates, limited seasonality, extreme heat and little available water. Australia is the driest continent on earth. 70% of this country is desert.

In spite of these disadvantages, Australians developed techniques covering replanting native foods, the maintenance of grazing lands using fire, fish farming and conservation of wild food sources. Because these methods are different, they don't meet the European conception of ‘agriculture’. Australian indigenous agriculture relied on maintaining and enhancing food sources already in the natural environment as opposed to the ‘rip out and replace’ methods of European farming.

I can understand you not knowing anything about this country, but it’s usually a good idea to educate yourself, just a little, before making this type of ill-informed and insulting judgement.

“Was a wilderness?” – to a European/North American eye, 80% of this country would still be seen as wilderness after 230 years of ‘British’ settlement.

OB

Well said! This continent's disadvantages compared to European protein ratios in their grains and in their easily domesticated animals are well documented in Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" - which one a Pulitzer prize. I suggest so called "Soldier of the king" abandon his racist ignorance and grab a copy - which documents that it was the luck of geography, not any special talents or conversely lack of them from any people groups living anywhere - that led to the faster rise of European 'civilisation'.

Also, I love that you refer to aboriginal aquaculture. One day I hope to read more about it in Dark Emu.

He argues that the economy and culture of Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander people has been 'grossly undervalued' for the past 200 hundred years. The early writings of white explorers and settlers are central to his argument; they described the cultivated way Indigenous people managed the land.

'Hunter-gatherer societies forage and hunt for food and do not employ agricultural methods or build permanent dwellings,' he writes.

'But as I read these early journals, I came across repeated references to people building dams and wells, planting, irrigating and harvesting seed, preserving the surplus and storing it in houses, sheds or secure vessels ... and manipulating the landscape.'
Rethinking Indigenous Australia's agricultural past
Dark Emu echoes historian Bill Gammage's The Biggest Estate on Earth: How Aborigines made Australia, published in 2011.​

 

[eclipsenow]

I've had a good amount of time to consider the issue. It's a lot deeper than just a celebration day. The debate is symptomatic of the blame game/make someone pay/I'm not responsible culture that infests modern society. I'm English by birth. My country was invaded by Vikings, Romans, Normans and no doubt others. My country was bombed by Germany relentlessly. Even in WW1. My great grandfather was German by birth and interned during the war. Hey, who do I sue for these terrible injustices. Now someone I've never met expects me to grovel in apology for something I never did. As an aside, my ex wife is part aborigine and my kids identify as aborigine. Good for them. That's their right and I would never argue with their choice.

Yay for personal anecdote - but what are you actually saying? That moving Australia Day involves a 'blame day'? How about recognition that it might be just downright indecent to celebrate our 'national day' on what a good number of traumatised, disempowered Australians refer to as Invasion Day?

I know - let's move the Queen's Birthday to the day the Vikings first invaded Lindisfarne? We'll call it "Britannia Day" and celebrate that ... just ... because. That invasion and slaughter is just as historical. Oh, except the trouble the Vikings caused for the British are over. The trouble we've inflicted on our indigenous peoples still continues - so there's that little matter to deal with as well.

Seriously - the replies from the "KEEP IT" faction have been so awful I'm swinging into the "Change the date" camp out of sheer shame.

 

[Occams Barber]

I've had a good amount of time to consider the issue. It's a lot deeper than just a celebration day. The debate is symptomatic of the blame game/make someone pay/I'm not responsible culture that infests modern society. I'm English by birth. My country was invaded by Vikings, Romans, Normans and no doubt others.

The Roman invasion was almost 2000 years ago Pete; The Vikings - around 1200 years ago- and the Normans a thousand years ago. Since then the genetic egg has been scrambled to the point where these differences are lost in the mists of time.

My country was bombed by Germany relentlessly. Even in WW1. My great grandfather was German by birth and interned during the war. Hey, who do I sue for these terrible injustices. Now someone I've never met expects me to grovel in apology for something I never did.

Imagine if the Germans had won Pete. They come over with different ideas and a view that the British are a somewhat inferior race. They take your land. They take your women. They shoot and hang your people and infect them with plague laced blankets - not quite genocide - but close. They treat the remaining people as second class, non-citizens. No vote, no freedom of movement, wages taken from them and set aside never to be returned. Then, once a year, you're expected to grin and bear it while they celebrate their great victory - the day we all became Germans. In the meantime the cumulative effects of marginalisation and discrimination ensure that the British Indigenous continue to struggle to manage in the new Reich.

Sound familiar Pete?

As an aside, my ex wife is part aborigine and my kids identify as aborigine. Good for them. That's their right and I would never argue with their choice.

Have you ever had an open conversation about their view of things? I say 'open' because, given your attitude to this, I doubt they'd be willing to expose themselves to your 'opinions'.

OB

 

[Tanj]

It should be moved to some kind of calendar where it's guaranteed to fall on a Friday or Monday to promise a long weekend, because it being a holiday is about all most Australian's care about.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The Roman invasion was almost 2000 years ago Pete; The Vikings - around 1200 years ago- and the Normans a thousand years ago. Since then the genetic egg has been scrambled to the point where these differences are lost in the mists of time.


Imagine if the Germans had won Pete. They come over with different ideas and a view that the British are a somewhat inferior race. They take your land. They take your women. They shoot and hang your people and infect them with plague laced blankets - not quite genocide - but close. They treat the remaining people as second class, non-citizens. No vote, no freedom of movement, wages taken from them and set aside never to be returned. Then, once a year, you're expected to grin and bear it while they celebrate their great victory - the day we all became Germans. In the meantime the cumulative effects of marginalisation and discrimination ensure that the British Indigenous continue to struggle to manage in the new Reich.

Sound familiar Pete?



Have you ever had an open conversation about their view of things? I say 'open' because, given your attitude to this, I doubt they'd be willing to expose themselves to your 'opinions'.

OB

What is, is. I do not believe that "what-if's" are helpful. I have some idea of the resources that are poured into the aborigine community, the money that is paid for the use of "their" land (it belongs to God, not that I expect you to agree), and the pathetic lifestyle that so many aborigines adopt. No, I don't feel any guilt. It's ludicrous. Non aborigine Australians developed this nation, which in some respects is as good as anywhere in the world. Yes, there is a great deal wrong still. There is also much that is worthwhile also. And check out some aboriginal leaders (Peter Walker for one). Not all aborigines are into blaming everyone else for their own issues.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yay for personal anecdote - but what are you actually saying? That moving Australia Day involves a 'blame day'? How about recognition that it might be just downright indecent to celebrate our 'national day' on what a good number of traumatised, disempowered Australians refer to as Invasion Day?

I know - let's move the Queen's Birthday to the day the Vikings first invaded Lindisfarne? We'll call it "Britannia Day" and celebrate that ... just ... because. That invasion and slaughter is just as historical. Oh, except the trouble the Vikings caused for the British are over. The trouble we've inflicted on our indigenous peoples still continues - so there's that little matter to deal with as well.

Seriously - the replies from the "KEEP IT" faction have been so awful I'm swinging into the "Change the date" camp out of sheer shame.

Go for it. It is an issue so trivial that it barely rates a mention. And what will change if the day changes? Nothing.

 

[eclipsenow]

Go for it. It is an issue so trivial that it barely rates a mention. And what will change if the day changes? Nothing.

Agreed - the day we celebrate Australia Day is quite trivial.
Your attitude to indigenous Australians isn't - and quite frankly seems unChristlike if you ask me.

 

[klutedavid]

FOR MOVING AUSTRALIA DAY TO ANOTHER DAY:-
1. A day of national celebration *could* occur on another day to CELEBRATE what we have in Australia now.
2. This would free the day from appearing to "celebrate" what our indigenous Australians see as "Invasion Day" and a precursor to the genocide/s that were about to occur. As the wiki says: "Some Australians regard Australia Day as a symbol of the adverse impacts of British settlement on Australia's Indigenous peoples.[53] In 1888, prior to the first centennial anniversary of the First Fleet landing on 26 January 1788, New South Wales premier Henry Parkes was asked about inclusion of Aboriginal people in the celebrations. He replied: "And remind them that we have robbed them?"[54]"
Australia Day - Wikipedia
3. We are a young nation, officially formed on New Year's Day 1901 - and Australia Day has 'only' been celebrated nation wide since 1935. We can change the day we celebrate this country if we want to. (How - referendum?)
4. It takes a lot to make Aussies go to a protest and there are tens of thousands of people now protesting our national day. "Thousands of people participate in protest marches in capital cities on Invasion Day/Australia Day; estimates for the 2018 protest in Melbourne range into tens of thousands.[56][57][58][59]"

FOR KEEPING ON 26 JAN:
1: European settlement - with all the good and bad that brought with it - is the forge that smelted the Australia we want to celebrate today, and 26th January is a historically significant day to celebrate the good in Australia.
2: Who said a national day can only celebrate the good? Can't we also commemorate and mourn the bad as well - and pay honour to those victims of our genocides in much the same way as we commemorate ANZAC day? A day of national celebration can be nuanced and remember the good and the bad in both speeches, performances, and monuments. We could start the day almost like ANZAC day with a lament for the bad - and then in the afternoon move onto the Australia Day awards and celebrating the good.
We are an educated people hopefully capable of holding more than one thought in our heads at a time.
3. What day would we move it to? The day we federated is the 1st January 1901 - so that day might involve too many hangovers from another very Aussie style of celebrating! (Not that I endorse that kind of celebrating - if you know what I mean?)

This seems to be a trivial post.

 

[Occams Barber]

What is, is. I do not believe that "what-if's" are helpful. I have some idea of the resources that are poured into the aborigine community, the money that is paid for the use of "their" land (it belongs to God, not that I expect you to agree), and the pathetic lifestyle that so many aborigines adopt. No, I don't feel any guilt. It's ludicrous

I don't feel guilt about the situation of many aboriginal communities. Nor do I expect you to feel guilty. I do expect you to understand how this situation came about. I expect you to understand that social forces beyond the influence of any one individual created (and continue to create) a situation of extreme disadvantage. I expect you to understand that the aboriginal 'problem' is largely (but not completely) the product of society. The first step in solving a problem is admitting it exists and understanding the underlying causes. Based on your posts you have some distance to go.

. Non aborigine Australians developed this nation, which in some respects is as good as anywhere in the world. Yes, there is a great deal wrong still. There is also much that is worthwhile also. And check out some aboriginal leaders (Peter Walker for one). Not all aborigines are into blaming everyone else for their own issues

We probably live in one of the best countries in the world. This doesn't give us an excuse to ignore or deny (you are a denier Pete) the problem we have, historically, created for indigenous Australians. I freely admit that I don't have answers but I know that nothing will happen until we accept that there is a problem and are prepared to face it, and accept we have a collective responsibility to minimise the damage.

Perhaps one small step is to create a day where we can all celebrate this country together as equals.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

This seems to be a trivial post.

Unless you happen to be indigenous or are aware of the history of the Australian indigenous population.

OB

 

[eclipsenow]

This seems to be a trivial post.

Yeah - traumatising the original inhabitants of the land once a year is sooooo trivial when you're white and privileged and enjoying your armchair expert status.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Reading your post, it was difficult not to respond in kind to what amounts to an insult to all indigenous people – including, but not limited to, Australia’s indigenous population.

To suggest that a land has no value based on your assumptions about what should be done with it indicates a smug sense of cultural superiority combined with an astounding ignorance of the nature of the land and its people.

Australians have lived successfully in this country for 60,000 years. Australia is not Europe or North America. It has no herdable animals, a soil generally deficient in phosphates, limited seasonality, extreme heat and little available water. Australia is the driest continent on earth. 70% of this country is desert.

In spite of these disadvantages, Australians developed techniques covering replanting native foods, the maintenance of grazing lands using fire, fish farming and conservation of wild food sources. Because these methods are different, they don't meet the European conception of ‘agriculture’. Australian indigenous agriculture relied on maintaining and enhancing food sources already in the natural environment as opposed to the ‘rip out and replace’ methods of European farming.

I can understand you not knowing anything about this country, but it’s usually a good idea to educate yourself, just a little, before making this type of ill-informed and insulting judgement.

“Was a wilderness?” – to a European/North American eye, 80% of this country would still be seen as wilderness after 230 years of ‘British’ settlement.

OB

It is very difficult to be nuanced and give a good summary of views on the forum. I have no issue with aborigines in general. I married one. Her racial background was not a contributor to the divorce. Some of Australia's most talented and successful citizens are aborigine. Stan Grant is the best example that I know of. If Australia was as racist as we are painted, Mr Grant would never have achieved the admirable success that he enjoys and that he richly deserves.

There are also groups of aborigines who want to be left alone to live their traditional lifestyle. That is fine, except it can go too far. One group charges entrance fees to government employees who come to help people with their social security claims. I admire the "gatekeeper's" gall but it is not his money to rip off.

Then there are those who can't agree among themselves who is the traditional custodian of the land. Claims can drag on for years and yes, it does matter. If the Western world is to stare down the threat of China, we need strong economies and self sufficiency in as much as possible. Either we develop our resources or China will be tempted to do it for us.

I've already voiced my thoughts on the other category. Please note that I stated that the inclination to blame everyone else is not the exclusive domain of aborigines.

As an aside, the locking in of Australia Day on the 26th of January is a recent occurrence. It used to be a Monday around that date so we all got a long weekend. Yet another "good intention" that backfired.

 

[klutedavid]

Unless you happen to be indigenous or are aware of the history of the Australian indigenous population.

OB

I lived with an indigenous flat mate and this fellow, was also an orphan of the state. I am acutely aware of the damage to the indigenous society, that white settlement inflicted. I would know more than most Australians about their plight, because I have lived with them.

Changing the date of Australia day in the long term, will not alter the landscape of the indigenous world. The damage was too deep and profound, and requires an enormous, long term input from Australian society.

Did you know that Australia is the only Commonwealth nation that doesn’t have a treaty with its Indigenous people?