What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[QvQ]

Being swallowed by a great fish was not God's will (secret or revealed), but it was part of the method God used to attain Jonah's necessary compliance.

God had a whale swallow Jonah to force compliance with God's will, so the result (compliance) is God's will but the method (whale) is not?
The whale was acting in compliance with God's will, yes or no?

 

[zoidar]

If you can't apprehend the kingdom (things) of God, why would you bother to "repent?"

Because you are convicted by the Holy Spirit. By being convicted the natural man knows about the kingdom of God and understands the need of forgiveness. So he repents and then he sees, gets aquainted with, experiences the kingdom of God.

I think Paul is an example of this. As he met Jesus, fell off the horse, he got convicted. But I don't believe he was yet born again. He prayed and fasted for three days, yes it was heavy repentance. Then Ananias lay his hands on Paul and he received the Holy Spirit, got regenerated and his eyes opened. He could physically see again, but not only that, now he could SEE the kingdom of God. He was born again.

Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight.”
— Acts 9:8-12

for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.” So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
— Acts 9:16-18

 

[QvQ]

As he met Jesus, fell off the horse, he got convicted. But I don't believe he was yet born again.

Born Again is the moment a person believes in Christ and the Resurrection. It is the moment of Faith
Saul was absolutely convinced of Christ the moment Christ identified Himself. At that moment, Saul was born again. And convicted in one sentence.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes

In that instant, Saul was born again.

 

[zoidar]

Born Again is the moment a person believes in Christ and the Resurrection. It is the moment of Faith
Saul was absolutely convinced of Christ the moment Christ identified Himself. At that moment, Saul was born again. And convicted in one sentence.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutes

In that instant, Saul was born again.

You think?

That's not my experience.

 

[QvQ]

You think?
That's not my experience

I am seeing that various denominations and personal experience vary. Every List has faith, conviction, repentance, baptism although the order varies and the time.
What is your experience?

 

[zoidar]

I am seeing that various denominations and personal experience vary. Every List has faith, conviction, repentance, baptism although the order varies and the time.
What is your experience?

I got convicted (started to believe the Bible was true) and I understood I was not going to heaven. That brought me to repentance and during prayer I experienced being forgiven, born anew and getting a changed heart.

 

[QvQ]

I got convicted and understood I was not going to heaven. That brought me to repentance and during prayer I experienced being forgiven, born anew and getting a changed heart.

I notice Christians here, being either in a Christian home or in the Christian culture don't mention Faith.
Faith, for me, was an Act of God. Believing in Christ was not my own power or choice.
To believe is instantaneous. It was to "see" the Bible, Christ and the Resurrection as true.
I could have been convicted, repented, been baptized but without that initial "Faith" that absolute certainty, it would have been nothing.
If I met you in person, I could never deny your truth. That was Saul. He could never deny Christ after Christ spoke to him. That is born again, to me
We are all Christians and while each of us has our own experience, all of us are saved.

 

[zoidar]

I notice Christians here, being either in a Christian home or in the Christian culture don't mention Faith.
Faith, for me, was an Act of God. Believing in Christ was not my own power or choice.
To believe is instantaneous. It was to "see" the Bible, Christ and the Resurrection as true.
I could have been convicted, repented, been baptized but without that initial "Faith" that absolute certainty, it would have been nothing.
If I met you in person, I could never deny your truth. That was Saul. He could never deny Christ after Christ spoke to him. That is born again, to me
We are all Christians and while each of us has our own experience, all of us are saved.

I have heard a testimony from a former drug addict who got instantly born again when she and a friend used tarot cards (believe it or not). As the card with Jesus came up she said the Holy Spirit came strongly over her and she got saved. Her whole life turned around, she stopped doing drugs etc. So I guess it happens, but it wasn't like that for me. All she is doing now is talking about Jesus.

Concerning who is saved and not saved, if the person is a believer in Christ's death and resurrection I assume the person is saved if the there isn't an obvious reason to think otherwise.

 

[QvQ]

I have heard a testimony from a former drug addict who got instantly born again when she and a friend used tarot cards (believe it or not). As the card with Jesus came up she said the Holy Spirit came strongly over her and she got saved. Her whole life turned around, she stopped doing drugs etc. So I guess it happens, but it wasn't like that for me.

The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.

Yes, if a person believes in Christ's death and resurrection, that is the core of Christian although conviction, repentance and baptism occur in time, as those acts were performed by Paul in the fullness of time.

 

[zoidar]

The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.

Yes, if a person believes in Christ's death and resurrection, that is the core of Christian although conviction, repentance and baptism occur in time, as those acts were performed by Paul in the fullness of time.

I think it's hard, would even say impossible to know for sure about Paul. I have my view, if I'm wrong about Paul I'm wrong. At least my view fits my story.

 

[QvQ]

I think it's hard, would even say impossible to know for sure about Paul

Yes, Saul on the road to Damascus is a great story though. I enjoy reading the Bible.

I have been Christian for a long time but not in a Christian network. So I never talk about Christianity.
I was here for a while a long time ago but life intervened. It is still new to me.
Interesting to see what other Christians believe.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, Saul on the road to Damascus is a great story though. I enjoy reading the Bible.

I have been Christian for a long time but not in a Christian network. So I never talk about Christianity.
I was here for a while a long time ago but life intervened. It is still new to me.
Interesting to see what other Christians believe.

Life tends to intervene. I try to rid myself of things that can effect my faith negatively, but it's not always easy, and sometimes you don't even know what is bad for you, from my experience.

Btw, is that your cat?

 

[QvQ]

Btw, is that your cat?

Yes, that is my cat. She likes climbing trees. Hard to see but she has very pale eyes, almost the color of water.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, that is my cat. She likes climbing trees. Hard to see but she has very pale eyes, almost the color of water.

Ah! I grew up having a cat. He died at the age of 16. Still love cats.

 

[QvQ]

Ah! I grew up having a cat. He died at the age of 16. Still love cats.

This is the longest I have had a cat. 10 yrs. I have an old dog, 14 yrs, might have to put down, few weeks, a month...but that's life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It does not matter what Calvin said or what men believe he said. It only matters what God has said.
God is sovereign and knows who will receive Christ and who will reject Christ. That does not mean that God has predetermined who will receive and who will reject.
The bible gives us many examples of man making choices. Some wise and some unwise but all choices allowed by God and used to glorify Him.

Why do you tell me the Bible gives us many examples of man making choices? Of course man makes choices! Who says otherwise?

Since you haven't been in on the more than 4500 posts on this thread, I'll tell you what I've already said many times: If God (first cause) has not determined everything after first cause, then it is determined by chance, which is a self-contradictory notion. Pretty simple.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ah! I grew up having a cat. He died at the age of 16. Still love cats.

I like cats at someone else's house.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What are your thoughts on Christ being divine, his payment would have infinite merit?
Why do you think that would not be true?

It's not that I disagree. It's that implications can be too easily drawn from words that are too vague.

True, the reason his death can be a substitute for even one person's deserved death, is because of (among other things) his divinity. (It is this principle that rules out the notion that Christ is/was only an angel.) And if his divinity can save one, it has that ability for any or all. It is only in that regard that I can agree that "quantity is not the point of Limited Atonement, but extent". The question is not whether Christ would have had to die again if there had been more to be saved, but, rather, the question is whom did Christ die to save.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is from Calvin:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.​

I don't see that saying that God has chosen not to save some. I'm guessing the question never came up. He made the Elect for his particular creation. He made the rest for another purpose. Because of sin, both the Elect and the rest of humanity deserve death and Hell. But God, according to his purposes, saves those he chose to save. The rest are still going to Hell.

 

[zoidar]

This is the longest I have had a cat. 10 yrs. I have an old dog, 14 yrs, might have to put down, few weeks, a month...but that's life.

Sorry about your dog! We get very emotionally attached to our pets. I have an aquarium, not the same bond there to the fishes as to a cat or dog, still you care for the little guys.