Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

How less than perfect can God's answer to suffering be?

  • It has to be perfect!

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • It's a matter of chance!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It depends on what you've said!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It depends on the Devil!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It depends on lots of things!

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • It doesn't matter.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It matters a little bit.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I wish it mattered less...

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • I'm thankful for whatever God can give (selah)

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • Total voters
    6

Tinker Grey

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The 'what's in it for me' syndrome in opposition to loving all as self. Mine mine mine versus us us us. The same concept the world government of the Adversary is offering today, 'we'll take care of you if we ultimately benefit most'.
No. It's not about what's in it for me. It's a question about the logic of your god's actions. Try to stay on topic.
 
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partinobodycular

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Agreed. But, I don't know that it is illogical that beings with free-will might always choose good. God, after all, always chooses good (arguendo). The angels that did not fall that could have fallen have not, yet, chosen evil even though they could have. So why not humans? And, heaven won't have suffering. Do we give up free will to get it? Most would argue not.

So, why it might be true that it's impossible, we (I) lack reasons to think so.
You've brought up a number of good points here, but to address them all at once would make this post far too long. So I'll address them one at a time.

First, what does it mean to say that God always chooses good? We humans have our own preconceptions about what this means, our own ideas about what constitutes good and bad, but are our ideas too narrow minded? When thinking about this I always like to consider evolution. If survival is good and death is bad then evolution always chooses the good...always, and it doesn't matter what we as humans may think about its choices. Evolution doesn't care if we consider the lion killing the gazelle to be bad, it doesn't ask for our opinion. It simply chooses the good.

In the same manner are we projecting our ideas of good and bad onto God? Are we anthropomorphizing God? Making God an idealized version of ourselves?

But if God is that which wills us into existence, then if we survive, even if we suffer, is that not good?
 
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partinobodycular

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It would depend on the world. Compare the Garden to this world. All was well in the Garden until we became aware of what our fellow creatures are not.
I have my own opinions about the story of Genesis. To me it's about the evolution of humanity and the consequences of attaining the knowledge of good and evil. There's an innocence to ignorance, and we've lost it.
 
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Tinker Grey

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First, what does it mean to say that God always chooses good? We humans have our own preconceptions about what this means, our own ideas about what constitutes good and bad, but are our ideas too narrow minded?
A couple of points: I don't think we should distract ourselves with Euthyphro. 2) But, since we're here, it doesn't matter what our conceptions of good are; theists routinely say that everything that God does is good. AND, God has freewill.

So to the question of free will, there are beings that exist that have free will and have never done evil. These include God and some angels. Those that go to heaven will always choose good and most would assert that there is free will in heaven.

So, I conclude that God wanted free will and had to allow suffering to get it doesn't seem to hold up.
 
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trophy33

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You're missing the point point. God did not have to choose between a bunch of option. He could decide two make it what ever he wanted.

He did not have to chose between a pre selected choice. With his omnipotence he can do anything. He did not have to chosose from a pre selected set of best/worst. He decides what is bets/worst.

He decided that the best had to have suffering rather than deciding not to include suffering. For a being that is unconstrained it is a perplexing choice. Does he need people to suffer?
As I already said, His perfections are not a matter of will, but a matter of His nature. So, He does not decide what is best/worse, but He recognizes it.

His will then decides to bring the best universe to being and His power makes it happen.
 
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Larniavc

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So let's set aside what that vaunted book says and seriously consider whether a world without suffering is actually possible. And if it were, what would you have to give up to get it?
What makes a universe with no suffering akin to squaring a circle? I keep being told that the universe must suffering but no one can say why.
 
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trophy33

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I keep being told that the universe must suffering but no one can
say why.
Because our nature does not allow us to see all possible universes, to compare them in everything and to see that the best one is the one we live in.

And only this would be a proper way to specifically answer to your "why". And general, humanly possible answers do not seem to satisfy you.
 
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Larniavc

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Because our nature does not allow us to see all possible universes, to compare them in everything and to see that the best one is the one we live in.
We don’t need to see all possible universes. This is the one God decided to make and he made it with suffering built in. The only reason for him to do anything is because he wants to not because he needs to.

Therefor he wanted a universe with suffering. He does need a universe with suffering, but he does want one.
 
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trophy33

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We don’t need to see all possible universes. This is the one God decided to make and he made it with suffering built in. The only reason for him to do anything is because he wants to not because he needs to.

Therefor he wanted a universe with suffering. He does need a universe with suffering, but he does want one.
You asked why the best universe must include some suffering. And this can be answered only by comparing the infinite number of possible universes and to see their outcomes. Only God can do that.
 
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Gottservant

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You asked why the best universe must include some suffering. And this can be answered only by comparing the infinite number of possible universes and to see their outcomes. Only God can do that.

Not to mention that this writer has ignored my earlier post, in which I pointed out that even if Heaven was pure 'heaven', being unable to experience anything less would be suffering.

That combined with the fact that the fool requires suffering, and God is humble: we can only assume that God is forbearing with other fools in mind, such that at least one of them is saved.

How many does questioning God: "save"?
 
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Larniavc

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And this can be answered only by comparing the infinite number of possible universes and to see their outcomes.
Fair enough if that is what you think. I’ll have to see if someone else has a more encompassing answer.
 
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trophy33

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Fair enough if that is what you think. I’ll have to see if someone else has a more encompassing answer.
No human can tell you why this universe is better than the same one with one fly less. Its not possible for us to comprehend all the relations between things and events.

Maybe you will get some specific answer, but it will not be the one you are looking for. Or it will not be provable.
 
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Gottservant

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As I said, "the fool would call the absence of suffering 'fake' (too fake; unreal)"

If God chooses to include suffering, that the fool not accuse Him of being light and easy for nothing, who are you to question God?

Do you save the fool? Or are you so much a fool yourself, that you think it doesn't matter?
 
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partinobodycular

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You asked why the best universe must include some suffering. And this can be answered only by comparing the infinite number of possible universes and to see their outcomes. Only God can do that.
All we're asking for is an answer that actually makes logical sense, not one that you made up to justify your preconceived notion of God.

If this is the best possible universe then what is it that makes it the best possible universe? Why is this universe better than a universe with one less fly?

You need to answer this question: This universe is the best possible universe because...?

If you can't give us a rational answer to that question then you're just making stuff up.

If you can't answer that question then I have to ask myself why God would make a world where His followers just make stuff up?
 
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trophy33

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All we're asking for is an answer that actually makes logical sense, not one that you made up to justify your preconceived notion of God.

If this is the best possible universe then what is it that makes it the best possible universe? Why is this universe better than a universe with one less fly?

You need to answer this question: This universe is the best possible universe because...?

If you can't give us a rational answer to that question then you're just making stuff up.

If you can't answer that question then I have to ask myself why God would make a world where His followers just make stuff up?
It seems you do not read my posts.

This universe is the best possible universe because it was chosen by perfect God who cannot err.
 
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Larniavc

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No human can tell you why this universe is better than the same one with one fly less. Its not possible for us to comprehend all the relations between things and events.

Maybe you will get some specific answer, but it will not be the one you are looking for. Or it will not be provable.
Not interested in the one fly less universe. It’s always been this one in it’s current state. I feel that message may not be getting through.
 
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Larniavc

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As I said, "the fool would call the absence of suffering 'fake' (too fake; unreal)"

If God chooses to include suffering, that the fool not accuse Him of being light and easy for nothing, who are you to question God?

Do you save the fool? Or are you so much a fool yourself, that you think it doesn't matter?
As ever what you say does not pertain to anything I have written.

I think you and I think so differently to each other a meaningful dialogue may be beyond us.
 
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