Saturday or Sunday Church?

[SabbathBlessings]

I did not accuse Jesus of sinning.

I invite other readers to look at what I said and agree with you or not.

Do you think Jesus broke the Sabbath?

 

[Carl Emerson]

But not as found in actual scripture - the Word of God as we see in Mark 7:6-13.



Is it your claim that Christ lived in violation of the Bible statements regarding the Sabbath ? Or simply that he was not complying with Jewish traditions?

In Mark 7 Jesus said it was the Jewish leaders that were living and teaching in violation to the OT commands - not Him.

Mark 2 which I quoted makes this clear.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong
About circumstances changing, that's why the law changes.

Or, if one perceives the law as eternal, how it is applied to changes.

 

[HIM]

I feel for those who say “I invite the readers”. Lol as if….

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong
About memorizing laws,

I don't think that's what God was talking about when he said he would write his laws in our hearts in the New Covenant.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I feel for those who say “I invite the readers”. Lol as if….

No need, I have reported the post.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong
About eating things that are unclean,

If something was sold in the marketplace, it may be unclear what animal that come from, what dead carcasses it had touched, how it had been slaughtered.

If it was okay for Christians to eat all of those things, that sounds like a change to me. At least a change in application.

Also, I think Paul says it's okay if an unbeliever invites you over for dinner. Just eat whatever. So if it's a stew, you take your chances imo.
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Did you want to comment on this?
Did people not living in the land not have to attend Jerusalem three times a year?

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong
About Levities and judges being given the authority to make rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah,

Right! So today it's... what?

If it's up to everyone to read the Torah for themselves and decide for themselves what it means, then cool! We agree.

 

[Soyeong]

-

Please edit your posts to quote just what you are responding to rather than quoting my entire post multiple times to respond with just a few lines at a time. Sorry, I think that the post that you were replying to had an extra end quote that is throwing off you quoting it.

 

[Leaf473]

Okay, something has going wrong with the quoting system in my last few posts

It's probably going to take a few minutes to figure out.

 

[Leaf473]

Okay, so the problem is that post 848 here
Saturday or Sunday Church?
has an extraneous /QUOTE in it. Over the next few minutes, I will go back and edit the previous posts.

So, @Soyeong my man, I'm going to reply to that post in sections by mentioning you, as I'm doing in this post.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No need, I have reported the post.

If you notice in my posts it’s prefaced with “if” you think Jesus broke the Sabbath, than by default that is calling Jesus a sinner. I asked you if you thought Jesus broke the Sabbath, so we could clear it up, but I didn’t get a response. I think most people on here thought the same thing from your post, so if you do not think Jesus broke the Sabbath, it might be better to phase your post in a way so people don’t think thats what you are insinuating. Anyway, if thats not what you meant, my apologies and I hope its not what you meant.

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 2 which I quoted makes this clear.

Mark 7:6-13 makes it very clear that Jesus was not in rebellion against scripture, the Word of God... and Mark 2 does not at all say that He was acting in rebellion against scripture.

So I agree that Mark makes it clear in Mark 2 and Mark 7.

Mark 7:7-13
And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Mark shows that it was not Jesus but rather Jewish leaders that were teaching rebellion against the Word of God, scripture, also called "Moses said".

 

[Soyeong]

Or, if one perceives the law as eternal, how it is applied to changes.

Please quote just what you responding to rather than quoting my entire post to repond with a line.. In any case, Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, so that is something that is directedly stated. So any instructions that God has ever given for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid, and if that were to ever change, then all of God's righteous laws would not be eternal. For example, the circumstances under which sex counts as adultery can change, but it will always be against God's nature to commit adultery.

I don't think that's what God was talking about when he said he would write his laws in our hearts in the New Covenant.

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God wanted His people to circumcise their hearts and obey His commandments. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah. In Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:33, the content is in regard to the Israelites returning from exile and the New Covenant, where God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Torah, and where He will put the Torah in our minds and write it on our hearts, so they are describing God circumcising our hearts by means of the Spirit. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

Regarding eating that which is unclean,

If something was sold in the marketplace, it may be unclear what animal that come from, what dead carcasses it had touched, how it had been slaughtered.

If it was okay for Christians to eat all of those things, that sounds like a change to me. At least a change in application.

Also, I think Paul says it's okay if an unbeliever invites you over for dinner. Just eat whatever. So if it's a stew, you take your chances imo.
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The issue of whether or not it is idolatry to eat meat offered to idols from the altar to to eat at home meat that had previously been offered to idols is a different topic than issue of whether we are permitted to eat unclean animals. Paul said nothing about eating unclean animals, so you should not insert that into what he was talking about and then interpret him as speaking against obeying what God has commanded. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man man, so when God has spoken against eating unclean animals, then even if it were a correct interpretation that Paul was speaking against obeying God, then we must obey God rather than Paul.

Did you want to comment on this?
Did people not living in the land not have to attend Jerusalem three times a year?

I'm pretty sure, though I'd have to look more into it. I know that provisions were made for people who were traveling from far away to exchange their tithe for money to be used to purchase what they needed when they God to the place where God would put His name, but it is not clear that it is meant for those outside of the land. A number of laws are conditional about living in the land.

About Levities and judges being given the authority to make rulings about how to correctly obey the Torah,

Right! So today it's... what?

If it's up to everyone to read the Torah for themselves and decide for themselves what it means, then cool! We agree.

I'm not sure what you are asking about today being what. People should join communities of believers and live in accordance with the rulings of the authorities of that community so that there is unity rather than everyone deciding for themselves.

has an extraneous /QUOTE in it. Over the next few minutes, I will go back and edit the previous posts.

Sorry about that.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About Jesus saying he didn't come to abolish the law and the prophets,

He goes on to say Until... and that's the key idea imo.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About Paul possibly referring to man-made laws at the end of 1 Corinthians 14,

It makes no sense to me to think that Paul would place Christian women under man-made laws.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About the four laws in Acts 15 being four categories of laws, then it doesn't fit that they were just the starting point imo. Who knows what all laws could be fit into those four categories?

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About the four laws in Acts 15 and 21,

The text just says it relates to gentiles. It doesn't split the gentiles into beginners and veterans.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About the works of The flesh in Galatians 5,

When Paul talks about doing them, he uses a word that means a regular event. I think he's talking about a lifestyle.

"...implying what is done as a regular practice – i.e. a routine or habit (cf. R. Trench)."
Strong's Greek: 4238. πράσσω (prassó) -- to do, practice

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About the law being for our instruction,

I agree! Possibly the only place we disagree is in how to apply it today.

 

[Leaf473]

@Soyeong

About travel in ancient times,

We know that it took Paul a long time to get back to Jerusalem on that final trip. Several months?

Suppose there was a devout family raising three or four teenagers. Do you honestly believe they were making that long trip every single time someone in the family had a "discharge"?

You probably wouldn't make it all the way back home before having to turn around again.
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About Torah observant Jews not traveling to Jerusalem three times a year,

They're probably basing that on something in the oral Torah. Are you saying we also to follow the oral Torah, or just the written?

As far as the written Torah goes, I can't find any exception to not traveling three times a year for the feasts.