How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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Estrid

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I find that the definition of 'contact' is contextual, particularly with respect to scale. But it's well-defined in atomic physics, if not at macro-scale.

Incidentally, I browsed for 'direct observation' - it's a term used in the social sciences, where you observe without participating or interfering ;)
Of course you did not have to search to
know why you "can't actually touch", being
considerably better informed in physical
science than I.

Its not actually something worth the commotion
except maybe to the most dedicated commotionarianist.

But I still don't see what was problematic.
 
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Estrid

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Yes - so when the electrons begin to resist the approach (a result of Pauli exclusion, IIRC) can we say that is, for practical (macro-scale) purposes, 'actually touching'?
Depends on what the actual meaning of touch is is.
 
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Mountainmike

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No. A field is something that has a physical value/quantity at every point in space. Fields are observable. Gravity and electromagnetism are real, not abstractions.
You missed the subtle distinction.

ELectrostatic attraction is indeed a real ( in some sense) repeatable interaction. As indeed is gravity. Quite what underlies the phenomena who knows?

However a field is just a recognition of the conditional expected action at a place that WOULD happen if matter ( or charge) WERE to exist at the place. If matter exists the space would no longer be empty.

The field is part of a mathematical model.
Nobody knows what gravity “is”. They only know what it “does”.
And it only does it , if matter is present.
Indeed do they know what it “ does”?
Is dark matter , or galactic rotation speed/ shape , just a recognition that that gravity is either locally variable , time variant or both. So the model isn’t as good as anyone hoped?

The argument of what it would do if matter were present at a space is just part of a mindgame. A very useful mindgame. But The only way for the field to act is if matter is present in which case the space is not empty.

You can only test existence of a field if the space is no longer empty.

Its an important question of philosophy, or you can “ shut up and calculate “ much like QM.
 
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SelfSim

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ELectrostatic attraction is indeed a real ( in some sense) repeatable interaction. As indeed is gravity. Quite what underlies the phenomena who knows?
Wherever electrostatic attraction (for eg) 'is real', then the fields with which it is equated in empirical formulas, are also 'real'.
Mountainmike said:
However a field is just a recognition of the conditional expected action at a place that WOULD happen if matter ( or charge) WERE to exist at the place. If matter exists the space would no longer be empty.

The field is part of a mathematical model.
Nobody knows what gravity “is”. They only know what it “does”.
And it only does it , if matter is present.
Indeed do they know what it “ does”?
Is dark matter , or galactic rotation speed/ shape , just a recognition that that gravity is either locally variable , time variant or both. So the model isn’t as good as anyone hoped?

The argument of what it would do if matter were present at a space is just part of a mindgame. A very useful mindgame. But The only way for the field to act is if matter is present in which case the space is not empty.

You can only test existence of a field if the space is no longer empty.
Moot point seeing as matter also objectively exists in the universe.
Mountainmike said:
Its an important question of philosophy, or you can “ shut up and calculate “ much like QM.
Very few, (if any?), philsophical questions are of practical objective importance.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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But I still don't see what was problematic.
The point was just that we understand what 'touching' and 'observation' are, in a fuzzy everyday kind of way, but when you prefix them with 'actually' and 'direct' respectively, it raises the question of what those prefixes add that changes the meaning enough to make them worth using. The former turns out to be an indirect clue to a technical usage, the latter to be (apparently) mistaken or meaningless in the context it was used.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You missed the subtle distinction.

ELectrostatic attraction is indeed a real ( in some sense) repeatable interaction. As indeed is gravity. Quite what underlies the phenomena who knows?

However a field is just a recognition of the conditional expected action at a place that WOULD happen if matter ( or charge) WERE to exist at the place.
What we mean by reality is, generally, what gives rise to our objective observations. It is a pragmatic inference.

If matter exists the space would no longer be empty.
...
You can only test existence of a field if the space is no longer empty.
That depends what you mean by 'empty' - if you mean 'without matter', your statement is tautological. But without matter, space still has fields (and dark energy), so is never empty in that sense - one could say that that's what space is. Even at its minimum energy state, space is not empty.
 
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SelfSim

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What we mean by reality is, generally, what gives rise to our objective observations.
Re the underlined bits:
.. (both of which can be taken as functional attributes for an objectively testable model of human minds).
FrumiousBandersnatch said:
That depends what you mean by 'empty' - if you mean 'without matter', your statement is tautological. But without matter, space still has fields (and dark energy), so is never empty in that sense - one could say that that's what space is. Even at its minimum energy state, space is not empty.
So the same applies for 'a vacuum', too.

Of interest here also, is the conspicuous absence of any need to use the even more nebulous term 'physical reality', (which never forms the basis of objective inferences in mainstream, reputable, (formal) scientific discourse).
 
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Estrid

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Wherever electrostatic attraction (for eg) 'is real', then the fields with which it is equated in empirical formulas, are also 'real'.
Moot point seeing as matter also objectively exists in the universe.
Very few, (if any?), philsophical questions are of practical objective importance.
Philosophy is terrif for endless argument about nothing.
That may not be practical? :D
 
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Estrid

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I was asking if that was what you meant by it (in #1749).

Indirect clue to a technicality? I guess so, though it would
have taken me a while to put it that way.
0f course it's a meaningless technicality for daily life
purposes.
I'm regretting that I mentioned it.
 
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stevevw

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@stevevw;
In order to see clearly where the evidence leads, one first has to clear all the philosophical baggage from the slate (and you have certainly clogged that up that view with a lot of it).
The point is I think its too hard to clear the philosophical garbage from the slate in the first place before any measuring is done regarding what is reality. Methodological naturalism is not a clean and neutral slate to begin with. To limit a measuring system to certain aspects of reality is taking a philosophical position as far as all the possible ways we can know what is real or not.

The evidence leads us to the seemingly inescapable simple conclusion that we all possess a single in-common mind type, which has been trying to make sense of its own perceptions. This has been going on for as long as we've been around.
Yes but having a single simple conclusion if you can call it that as its not so simple doesn't equate to that conclusion being a true representation of reality. The line between what is regarded as objective reality and other influences or causes outside objective reality is very blurred. Methodological naturalism implies a canon of reality that imposes a certain view of reality.

But that canon of reality is closed. It cannot be imposed on all other ways of knowing and understanding reality. For example Indigenous knowledge and understanding of the world is more spiritual. They have lived successfully this way for thousands of years well before western science come along. The western scientific materialist view was imposed on Indigenous peoples like it was the gospel of how we should understand reality.

That's why you can't separate ourselves from how we see and measure reality because the two are intertwined. There's no such thing as a neutral method when it comes to measuring reality.

We observe two kinds of perceptions: perceptions that are consistently persistent .. and perceptions that aren't. Science addresses the consistently persistently consistent kinds, using its formalized method and infers from these a meaning .. call it: 'Objective Reality'.
Like I said its not as simple as that. The line between objective reality and beyond can be very blurred.its not a clear cut case to say something is objective reality.
The other kind of perceptions .. the inconsistent ones .. are what we call: 'beliefs'.

That's it in a nutshell .. simple as I can make it.
But its not like objective reality doesn't come with a belief. A belief in material matter being reality. Objective reality only quantifies what we see. It doesn't tell us what its fundamental nature is. But you seem to think that on one side we have objective reality (truth) and belief being delusional. That cannot be justified.

If anything is more consistent it is belief in things that transcend objective reality and we can't just dismiss this as delusional. It may in fact a reflection of a deeper understand and knowledge of reality.
 
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stevevw

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Everyone:
If fields and matter are only abstractions that aren't about an objective (actual) external reality, then the endlessly repeatable experiments in physics would...not exist. But they do.

We get actual external reality partially known via a correspondence way (our concepts proven to correspond by experiment) that works
Manhattan_Bridge_May_2022_010.jpg


This bridge stands reliably (until it rusts enough or there is a large enough earthquake, explosion, etc. to knock it down), because of a entirely independent objective external reality -- the process of physics is about finding parallels to aspects of that real external reality (aka "physical reality", etc.) -- which we have learned how to measure things that perfectly correspond to some consistent aspects of that objective external reality. (this isn't saying we know every aspect, or even every aspect that will matter to our various projects like bridges. But of course, obviously, we do know enough aspects to make bridges and even know what can make them collapse so that when one does collapse, we can figure out why in a way that we can demonstrate is consistently so, a reliable factor).

So, in short, we can 'know' external reality as much as we can know that we exist, or know anything we know -- equally known -- real things, out there, in part. That is, in our own aspects we have developed which evidently (by repeated experiments) show consistent behaviors that correspond perfectly to our best theories, within their limits (which we also know some about, though never all about).

So, physical reality exists, it's objective, and we can know things about it (in part) in reliable, consistent ways that work always when only the factors we know about are dominate (which for very many things is most all the time; we know very much about structural steel and bridges by experience, and can be highly confident).
None of this says we can't tomorrow learn some new behavior we didn't already measure.
But let me pose a thought experiment. Say we lived in a simulation where we only thought that we were measuring the physical world but in reality it was some experiment made by some future technological humans. So within the simulation we think everything is objectively real. But outside the simulation is another whole level of reality.

Creating a methodology to measure what we perceive doesn't mean we are also revealing the fundamental nature of reality. It just means we are describing something we see. There could be some other aspect to reality beyond the physical stuff we see and measure.

For example many say that consciousness is at the judgemental level of reality and therefore this cannot be measured by a human created measuring system Just like we could not measure the reality outside the simulation.

This exposes the limitation of methodological naturalism in the greater scheme of what is fundamental to reality. So I think we have to be care about stepping over the line between methodological naturalism and metaphysical naturalism.
 
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stevevw

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The space in matter is not empty but is permeated by fields.
And permeated fields if you can call it that are not particles but potential particles. So at the very bottom is nothing physical. Then there's the whole issue of what creates or collapses particles from fields which isn't clear. So certainly the line between what is classed as particle matter and what is not is very blurry.

We can't directly observe anything, but that doesn't mean that nothing is physical :doh:
I am speaking as far as what empirical science regards as verifiable. Its done through observation, experimentation. That usually involves direct observation with phenomena. We can make inferences as to what something is but its not until its directly observed and confirmed that its regarded as objective.

But if there is some phenomena that cannot be directly observed then how can it be regarded as verified scientifically. Does that make it irrelevant as far as what reality is. I know that the science method will infer a particular cause (physical/material) as opposed to any other cause. But that only shows that the method is biased towards a particular metaphysical view.
 
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SelfSim

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e
Methodological naturalism is not a clean and neutral slate to begin with.
Well, 'Naturalism' is a philosophical position.
stevevw said:
To limit a measuring system to certain aspects of reality is taking a philosophical position as far as all the possible ways we can know what is real or not.
Science is establishing what reality means. The way you use 'real' in that latter underlined phrase, assumes you already know what it means. That's your assumption and yet the scientific method states no such up front assumptions. Science does not rely on syllogisms also .. it couldn't work that way because it would cease being science .. and become philosophy.
stevevw said:
Yes but having a single simple conclusion if you can call it that as its not so simple doesn't equate to that conclusion being a true representation of reality. The line between what is regarded as objective reality and other influences or causes outside objective reality is very blurred. Methodological naturalism implies a canon of reality that imposes a certain view of reality.
So all that is just what I'll call philosophical baggage that you're throwing at the issue.

Science is establishing what reality means to us humans.

You however, seem to be stuck in the belief that reality is a 'thing' external from what you mean (you're certainly not alone there, I might add). Do you see the problem there? Where do you think your assumed definition/meaning of reality there came from? Might it be a dictionary? If so, where do you think those dictionary definitions came from then? Were they just sorta yet another 'thing' floating around in the 'aether' waiting for us to grab hold of them and when they floated by our noses, someone just stuck 'em in a dictionary for good keeping, or something? If not, then there's nothing logical, objective or rational there, which justifies it being an 'external thing'. If so, then the best explanation for that is a belief, which still requires the beliefs as being produced by your mind and not 'a thing' external from it.

stevevw said:
But that canon of reality is closed. It cannot be imposed on all other ways of knowing and understanding reality. For example Indigenous knowledge and understanding of the world is more spiritual. They have lived successfully this way for thousands of years well before western science come along. The western scientific materialist view was imposed on Indigenous peoples like it was the gospel of how we should understand reality.
The thing is, science's way of giving its objective reality meaning is internally consistent. The other way you describe, above, just isn't. It may have worked inside the long past, small communities of isolated Indigneous peoples .. but they had no idea, in those times, that there were a myriad of other meanings outside of their immediate communities. So which one was correct? I guess their solution was warfare for imposing their own particular meaning of it? That's not likely succeed nowadays though and its been shown as being ultimately self-destructive to our species.

Science provides the opportunity for everyone to give 'reality' an objective meaning .. but one has to leave all the philosophical baggage at the door before entering when one is serious about giving it a commonly shareable meaning.

stevevw said:
That's why you can't separate ourselves from how we see and measure reality because the two are intertwined. There's no such thing as a neutral method when it comes to measuring reality.

Like I said its not as simple as that. The line between objective reality and beyond can be very blurred.its not a clear cut case to say something is objective reality.
Which is why I'm submitting for your consideration the perspective that Science is establishing what objective reality means. Do you understand the fundamental difference there? Its the keys to the kitchen I'm giving you right there! :)

stevevw said:
But its not like objective reality doesn't come with a belief. A belief in material matter being reality. Objective reality only quantifies what we see. It doesn't tell us what its fundamental nature is. But you seem to think that on one side we have objective reality (truth) and belief being delusional. That cannot be justified.
From the other current sub-conversation going on in the thread, its clear to me that 'A belief in material matter being reality', doesn't begin to cover science's patch of what a scientist means when they speak of what's real (eg: EM fields, gravitational fields, 'virtual' particles, electrons, photons, wave/particle duality, etc, etc) .. which is why it doesn't appear in science textbooks alongside the rest of science's models.

stevevw said:
If anything is more consistent it is belief in things that transcend objective reality and we can't just dismiss this as delusional. It may in fact a reflection of a deeper understand and knowledge of reality.
But is it of practical usefulness in making predictions of where the coffee's gonna land when I bump my cup of it off the table? I care about that .. Its hot! So I have that mean: Ouch! It hurts if it lands on me!
 
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Halbhh

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A lot here, and interesting stuff. First you started off with a form of the ever popular Simulation Theory: Simulation hypothesis - Wikipedia

Which I'll return to at the end below.

And which you used to illustrate a broad concept.

You also along the way in your post brought in another, different topic that is also so interesting, about our world and what we might know of it (which really is an independent topic in itself). Let me address that here first. Because there is a useful thing to bring out on it.
Creating a methodology to measure what we perceive doesn't mean we are also revealing the fundamental nature of reality. It just means we are describing something we see. ...3rd topic: There could be some other aspect to reality beyond the physical stuff we see and measure.

First, I agree with the last sentence in this quote. That's a truly interesting thing to think on, and I like to discuss that at times (I've a few times). I'll call that the '3rd topic' (maybe the most interesting one).

But here, in this response, I want to at first address just the 2nd topic alone :) (so, not the 1rst, nor the 3rd yet -- they deserve their discussion imo).

So, this next is about a valuable insight regarding this topic: "Creating a methodology to measure what we perceive doesn't mean we are also revealing the fundamental nature of reality. It just means we are describing something we see."

Initially, I'd have not had any reason myself to expect that our 'methodology' (as you termed) -- or what I call our 'physics' -- which we have developed over time would be anything more than just a construct. Like an arbitrary building even. A model that sometimes acts like the real world, if you simplify the real world a lot....

Arbitrary and not corresponding perfectly to any actual reality out there.

More like a...model of car. In which case, we could have built a different model (like a different car brand or model), and have had about equal results: some practical functionality.

...except...I've learned there is a decisive reason to not think that.

Instead, to my delight and wonder, I've found out we are gradually discovering pieces of the real genuine external reality (!) -- the real physics, the actual and real structure of Nature -- the absolute thing that has a definite final form, and so we have some pieces of the actual structural design we now have pinned down, pieces that won't be modified, being perfect (!), but instead can only be incorporated into the more full picture, if we manage to find more of that real picture -- we are finding the real thing out there, slowly, in pieces, often with only partial bits that are incomplete.

We are far from having the fuller picture at this point though.

Here's why I think so:

Occasionally in physics a new theory predicts an entirely new thing never before thought of, nor seen or previously suspected even, a striking and surprising new prediction of a truly new to us thing we don't see, haven't seen, didn't have a hint about existing...

And... sometimes (now and then among the many new theories, one of them...), when we finally find a way to observe some decisive aspect of that new prediction from that new theory -- in the effort to shoot down the theory basically, testing in order to find out whether or not the theory was correct in that novel new prediction of a never observed thing...

We sometimes find, in a dramatic confirmation moment that takes our breath away, one of the novel new predictions is correct. (e.g. Einstein's General Relativity for example predicted surprisingly the novel prediction that light would be bent twice as much by gravity than had been imagined before by classical physics, while light being bent by gravity was itself a never before observed thing additionally, and only a hypothetical idea itself. The new theory said the old hypothesis was wrong, and made this novel new prediction. Which years later was confirmed to the surprise and delight of very many physicists).

So, what happens: some of our new physics theories turn out right in predicting truly novel to us new things we had never imagined or seen. Often intricate and deeply hidden from ordinary observation of the human eye, requiring powerful magnifying or amplifying or concentrating equipment to even allow an observation to be possible.

That kind of success isn't what a mere arbitrary construct/model that is somewhat like the world would be able to predict.

Instead, we get these surprising novel predictions and then must devise a way to even observe some aspect of that prediction.

So, we have some actual discoveries of parts -- bits -- of the structure of an actual, real physics, that already exists, independently of us.

And we have a glimpse of a part of the structure, from an angle, in odd lighting, and can't figure out more quickly, but have to keep guessing new ideas what the rest of the unknown structure, and new things to try to find, never before thought of or imagined in any way.

None of this was about the Simulation Hypothesis of the Universe, which is just to me a fun thing to imagine, but...(now changing topic here to that topic)...it's interesting to notice that a real physics that is basically a consistent structure that is mathematically describable (in principle, though we are far from having found it all)...well, what's the difference between that and a 'computer simulation' -- they are very much the same. Both are just mathematically operating systems.
 
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SelfSim

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... Occasionally in physics a new theory predicts an entirely new thing never before thought of,
So where does that prediction come from then?
Halbhh said:
... nor seen or previously suspected even, a striking and surprising new prediction of a truly new to us thing we don't see, haven't seen, didn't have a hint about existing...
So something is not suspected, yet its still a prediction? When last I looked, a prediction isn't too far removed from something suspected(?)

A 'suspected thing' can still be a suspected explanation, constructed in a way to make sense from something else, which we've already made sense of. Ie: this is all evidence of a mind exploring what else it might make sense of, based on what it already knows exists.
Halbhh said:
We sometimes find, in a dramatic confirmation moment that takes our breath away, one of the novel new predictions is correct. (e.g. Einstein's General Relativity for example predicted surprisingly the novel prediction that light would be bent twice as much by gravity than had been imagined before by classical physics, while light being bent by gravity was itself a never before observed thing additionally, and only a hypothetical idea itself. The new theory said the old hypothesis was wrong, and made this novel new prediction. Which years later was confirmed to the surprise and delight of very many physicists).
Ok so; Einstein's thought experiments (for eg) were conceived by him as a way of convincing others to conceive already known problems in a different way:
A hallmark of Albert Einstein's career was his use of visualized thought experiments, (German: Gedankenexperiment), as a fundamental tool for understanding physical issues and for elucidating his concepts to others.
..
he proposed imaginary devices intended to show, at least in concept, how the Heisenberg uncertainty principle might be evaded.
There's no evidence for something existing independently from his cunning 'imaginary devices'. The evidence is that he used his mind to come up with 'imaginary devices'.
No evidence there of anything existing independently from human minds.

Another example is the prediction of the energy range for the Higgs mass from the already well known (and tested) Standard Model.
 
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