Saturday or Sunday Church?

[Leaf473]

Are you implying that Jesus is temporary?

1 Cor 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

I get the feeling this is more of a game for some.

No, I'm not implying that Jesus is temporary. It's the Passover feast that is described as permanent in Exodus 12.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, I'm not implying that Jesus is temporary. It's the Passover feast that is described as permanent in Exodus 12.

Which Jesus became our Passover. We don't slay lambs anymore because the blood of Jesus is perfect for the forgiveness of sins when we turn to Him and repent and walk in obedience. The Passover all pointed to Christ at the cross.

 

[Leaf473]

Which Jesus became our Passover. We don't slay lambs anymore because the blood of Jesus is perfect for the forgiveness of sins when we turn to Him and repent and walk in obedience. The Passover all pointed to Christ at the cross.

Exactly! And on that part we agree! And that's not the letter of the Passover law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Exactly! And on that part we agree! And that's not the letter of the Passover law.

Still don't think we agree actually or on the same page, but that's okay.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It pertains to all animal sacrifices and offerings. All were taken away at the cross and Heb 7 also points out that the Levitical priesthood by which all of them were offered - was also ended at the cross.

That part is very clear and both non-Bible-Sabbath groups as well as Bible-Sabbath groups affirm it.

Can you please show me which verse pertains to sacrifices that aren’t a sin offering in Hebrews 10?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually nobody really knows which commandments were written on the stone tablets, God kept on giving commandments to Moses on Mt Sinai for the next 11 chapters. In Exodus 31 the scriptures tell us that the tablets contained the commandments God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai and they also tell us that there were 10 commandments written on the stone tablets but it doesn’t tell us which ten were written on the stones.

Exodus 20 is where God spoke the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy we see Moses reviewing the Ten Commandments so we actually do know for certain God’s Ten Commandments. Like I said previously, we serve a loving God, He is not going to judge us on something no one knows about.

The Ten Commandments Reviewed

Deuteronomy 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 4 The Lord talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 5 I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:

6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that isin the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day isthe Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

16 ‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Deuteronomy 4:13
So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

I pray this helps.

 

[BNR32FAN]

until you read Deut 4 and 5 and see that it is the ones "spoken directly by God to Israel" in Ex 20 that were on stone. None of the other variations people have suggested - fit that detail. So it is not very confusing at all.

I stand corrected you are correct and I do apologize I was not aware of this passage. I concede that the 10 commandments that were written on the stone tablets were the 10 commandments given in Exodus 20 and again I do apologize for my mistake. It was not my intention to give false information, for some reason Deuteronomy 4 didn’t come up in my search on the Ten Commandments when I was trying to find scriptural evidence of which commandments we’re actually written on the tablets.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Exodus 20 is where God spoke the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy we see Moses reviewing the Ten Commandments so we actually do know for certain God’s Ten Commandments. Like I said previously, we have a loving God, He is not going to judge us on something no one knows about.

The Ten Commandments Reviewed

Deuteronomy 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 4 The Lord talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 5 I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:

6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that isin the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

11 ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day isthe Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.

16 ‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’

22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Deuteronomy 4:13
So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

I pray this helps.

Amen I agree that the stone tablets did in fact contain the 10 commandments given in Exodus 20 and I sincerely apologize for my mistake. I was not aware of the statement in Deuteronomy 4. Please forgive my mistake it was not my intention to mislead anyone from the truth of God’s word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Amen I agree that the stone tablets did in fact contain the 10 commandments given in Exodus 20 and I sincerely apologize for my mistake. I was not aware of the statement in Deuteronomy 4. Please forgive my mistake it was not my intention to mislead anyone from the truth of God’s word.

It’s okay, I appreciate your apology. It’s not a matter of who is right or wrong, we all should seek His Truth wherever that leads. I have been wrong many times and still learning through His marvelous materpiece, the Holy Bible.

I truly wish you nothing but the best.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else that God has commanded, so they are the greatest two commandments because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments and all of the other commandments are examples of what it means to love, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that they all hang on the greatest two commandments. So they are all connected and the fact that the greatest two commandments are contained in the NT means that all of God's other commandments are also contained in the NT. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of His laws are inherently moral laws. Christ lived in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when he is how we live our life.

Amen and I don’t disagree with any of this. My position is that the laws have changed and I’ve been providing scriptural evidence to support those changes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s okay, I appreciate your apology. It’s not a matter of who is right or wrong, we all should seek His Truth wherever that leads. I have been wrong many times and still learning through His marvelous materpiece, the Holy Bible.

I truly wish you nothing but the best.

I try to study God’s word diligently because it’s extremely important to me to understand His word the way He intended it to be understood. With so many different interpretations and opposing doctrines out there the only way to know for sure is to study it for yourself. I never questioned the commandments on the tablets before and in my search for scriptures that specifically stated which commandments were written on the stones I couldn’t find anything specifically stating which commandments were written on them. I would expect that Deuteronomy 4 definitely should’ve come up in the sources I was examining but it didn’t. I just wanted you and everyone else to know that I wasn’t ignoring the scriptures it just wasn’t presented to me as evidence before now.

 

[Soyeong]

Amen and I don’t disagree with any of this. My position is that the laws have changed and I’ve been providing scriptural evidence to support those changes.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), and if they were to ever change, such as with it becoming in accordance with God's righteousness to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, so it is a sin to say that God's laws have changed.

 

[BobRyan]

I stand corrected you are correct and I do apologize I was not aware of this passage. I concede that the 10 commandments that were written on the stone tablets were the 10 commandments given in Exodus 20 and again I do apologize for my mistake. It was not my intention to give false information, for some reason Deuteronomy 4 didn’t come up in my search on the Ten Commandments when I was trying to find scriptural evidence of which commandments we’re actually written on the tablets.

No harm done -- I appreciate your spirit looking into that. God bless you.

IN a sea of "non-serious" rejection of certain texts that we post - we are prone to forget that there are also the "serious" ones that are simply looking for "Bible details" that fill in the gaps and make the picture complete.

I really appreciate someone willing to look into the Bible details and follow them where they lead.

 

[BobRyan]

Can you please show me which verse pertains to sacrifices that aren’t a sin offering in Hebrews 10?

Hebrews 7 informs us that all officiating / ceremonies etc by Levitical priesthood ends at the cross - and Christ is now our High Priest in heaven - rather than having earthly priests.

Heb 10 says animal sacrifices AND offerings are ended.

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.​

all of that is detailed in the book of Lev given at Sinai. Without any Levitical priests -- no animal offerings of any kind.

Also vs 8 appears to address all kinds of offerings " “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin "

Your suggestion is that we trim it down to just "offerings for sin" where as "all those other words" appear to include any animal sacrifice.

So then animal sacrifices would have ended three ways.
1. No Levitcal priests
2. No sacrifices or offerings in the temple
3. No temple after 70 A.D.

============================

Section 19.3 of the Baptist Confession of Faith appears to be inline with the above Bible details.

1. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, (the TEN) God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

 

[BobRyan]

Amen and I don’t disagree with any of this. My position is that the laws have changed and I’ve been providing scriptural evidence to support those changes.

God gave the Law - God alone can change it or point to its completion in the case of "predictive" law. Such as ceremonies that point to Christ as Col 2 points out.

But there is also "prescriptive" law - such as "Do not take God's name in vain". Prescriptive Law functions like the speed limit. Simply complying with it - does not delete it. It is not predicting anything.

 

[BobRyan]

It relates to this thread in the sense of: We have a collection of laws. How do we deal with them?

650 in the OT and another 1050 in the NT -- this is not a thread about 1700 commands in scripture - it is a thread about "Saturday or Sunday Church" -- so no need to try and cram 1700 other topics into it.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, there is no word for word correspondence with Alike. I think it is required by the text.

And I think it is very important to admit that translators point out - that the word is not actually in the text and then I notice that in fact the Bible does not support treating every day as though it were the Bible Sabbath -- a day to refrain from secular activity.

so then -- we differ.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

The reason I go to church and keep Sunday Holy is because it is The Lords day and the day Jesus rose from the grave. It is also New Testament vs old testament and the same reason that I don't sacrifice animals when I sin, because it is no longer necessary since Jesus rose from the grave. Paul talks about the law not being sufficient and rather a shadow of what was to come. Why hold onto old testament practices, the new testament is here.

 

[BobRyan]

The reason I go to church and keep Sunday Holy is because it is The Lords day and the day Jesus rose from the grave. It is also New Testament vs old testament and the same reason that I don't sacrifice animals when I sin, because it is no longer necessary since Jesus rose from the grave. Paul talks about the law not being sufficient and rather a shadow of what was to come. Why hold onto old testament practices, the new testament is here.

1. we can all agree that Sunday (called "week day 1" in the Bible) is the day that Jesus was raised from the dead.
2. Although no Bible text says week-day-1 is the Lord's day - we can all agree that many Christians refer to it by that title today.
3. We can all agree that there is no text saying "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day". Or we can post that text if we have it.
4. We can all agree that the term "Sabbath" used for weekly Sabbath in the NT is the same as in the Old Testament.
5 We can all agree that there are assemblies "every Sabbath" for worship and Gospel preaching for both Jews and gentiles - in the NT in Acts 18:4
6. We can all agree that even gentiles were asking for "more Gospel preaching" on the "Next Sabbath" in Acts 13.

No Bible text says "The Ten Commandments are not needed since Jesus died on the cross" - rather the Bible says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where "the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of Ten is still "Honor your father and mother" according to Eph 6:2


We might all agree that there is not one text in the NT were we find gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching" on the "next week day 1".

We might all agree that there is not one text in the NT showing an assembly for Gospel preaching to both Jews and gentiles being held "every week day one" in the NT.

We "might" all agree that this is an interesting post along those lines

And of course various "Confessions of Faith" - include C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19.

So then - not just "the Westminster Confession of Faith" Sectn 19 (which also makes the same point)

As we saw stated in other threads this way -- -

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath in Eden that you see in most of the Sabbath keeping groups - having the start of the Sabbath for all mankind in Eden.​

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

======================
Baptist Confession of Faith - Section 22

22. Worship and the Sabbath Day

8. The Sabbath is kept holy to the Lord by those who, after the necessary preparation of their hearts and prior arranging of their common affairs, observe all day a holy rest from their own works, words and thoughts about their worldly employment and recreations, and give themselves over to the public and private acts of worship for the whole time, and to carrying out duties of necessity and mercy."

And we "might" all agree that what D.L. Moody noticed about this topic is also interesting

DWIGHT L. MOODY

The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17

The Fourth Commandment

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.


"THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

"I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

"It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

"I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I try to study God’s word diligently because it’s extremely important to me to understand His word the way He intended it to be understood. With so many different interpretations and opposing doctrines out there the only way to know for sure is to study it for yourself. I never questioned the commandments on the tablets before and in my search for scriptures that specifically stated which commandments were written on the stones I couldn’t find anything specifically stating which commandments were written on them. I would expect that Deuteronomy 4 definitely should’ve come up in the sources I was examining but it didn’t. I just wanted you and everyone else to know that I wasn’t ignoring the scriptures it just wasn’t presented to me as evidence before now.

Yes, I agree its important to study for ourselves and pray before reading the Word so we can claim the promise that the Spirit will teach us all things. John 14:26 That’s why its so important to not harden our hearts when we learn the Truth to God’s Word. It’s okay to be wrong, but it becomes dangerous when we are so closed off to the Truth and refuse to look at the context of the scriptures. This is the unpardonable sin when we are so closed off we grieve the Holy Spirit, that the Spirit can’t lead us to His Truth.

Sometimes its good to go through an exercise like this. There have been many times I have been wrong and stood corrected by the Word. The Ten Commandments is sadly not something being taught in churches anymore, mainly because they have to deal with one commandment. To me this is such a foundational teaching of scripture and there is nothing wrong with testing scripture to see if it were so, and your response to the Truth is what we should all strive for. God bless.