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Saturday or Sunday Church?

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BobRyan

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Exodus 12 says that the Israelites were to keep the Passover "as a feast throughout your generations by an ordinance forever."

And Heb 10 says all laws regarding animal sacrifice end at the cross - as even the non-SDA non-Bible Sabbath groups like Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19, and Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19 -- freely admit.
 
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BobRyan

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Based on my amateur understanding of greek, it's required by the construction.

Meager or not - the actual Bible translations point out that 'alike' was inserted and is not in the text.

I didn't read every single translation available here, but the ones I read all agreed.
Romans 14:5 - Bible Gateway

agreed - pretty much all of them point out that "alike" is not in the actual text but is an insert.
 
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BobRyan

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Actually nobody really knows which commandments were written on the stone tablets,

until you read Deut 4 and 5 and see that it is the ones "spoken directly by God to Israel" in Ex 20 that were on stone. None of the other variations people have suggested - fit that detail. So it is not very confusing at all.
 
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Leaf473

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For the fiftieth time He did NOT say the seventh day OF THE WEEK.
That's especially useful since the Bible doesn't tell us where sunset of the seventh Day becomes sunset of the first day.

Put the international date line in the middle of the Atlantic, and what had been Saturday in the USA becomes Sunday.
 
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BobRyan

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Hebrews 10 only pertains to sin offerings not ceremonial sacrifices. ‬‬

It pertains to all animal sacrifices and offerings. All were taken away at the cross and Heb 7 also points out that the Levitical priesthood by which all of them were offered - was also ended at the cross.

That part is very clear and both non-Bible-Sabbath groups as well as Bible-Sabbath groups affirm it.
 
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Soyeong

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Yes, God will judge the world by His nature which has been revealed through His law.

But as we talked about earlier, his laws change over time. Or how we apply them changes over time, if you prefer that wording.

First, plants only.
Then, all animals.
Later, only some animals.

And if you're correct about the word for food in Genesis 9 meaning clean foods, that's really cool. It means that all animals would be considered clean food.

Yes, I know that Noah knew about clean and unclean animals. But maybe that didn't apply to eating or something.

God's nature is eternal, so the way to act in accordance with His nature is therefore also eternal and does not change over time. For example, if it changed over time that at some point in the future it became righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, and the same is true of God's holiness.

Eating unclean animals has always been an abomination against God's holiness, so that has not and will never change, though it is possible that there is something that caused certain animals to become unclean through the Fall. Unclean animals tend to be predators and scavengers, and animals did not exist in that capacity before the Fall, but after death was introduced, it predators and scavengers became necessary to clean up the environment, and this increase of toxins is a large part of why there are night and day differences between how healthy it is to eat clean or unclean animals. There are time laps videos on Youtube of oysters cleaning up a tank of dirty water and if you won't want to drink dirty water, then you shouldn't want to eat those oysters after they have removed that gunk from the water. It's like eating a dirty air filter, so once you understand their role in the environment, then you see that they weren't intended to be eaten as food. God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), and there are a enormous number of diseases and parasites that have been transferred to humans through eating unclean animals, so God prohibited eating them for our own good because they weren't intended to be eaten as food, though God associated it with His eternal holiness, so there is more to it than that.

In Genesis 9:3, Noah was permitted to eat clean animals. It is not explicitly stated by the Bible, but I don't see a reason why when Adam and Eve were permitted to kill animals for clothing that they weren't also permitted to kill them for food. Furthermore, un Genesis 4:4, Cain brought the firstborn of his flock and the fat portions, and the primary reason for raising a flock is for food, so I don't think that Genesis 9:3 was granting something new, but was just lifting the temporary prohibition of Genesis 6:21.

In Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in God's eyes, that he was a righteous man, and that he walked with God. It was not the case that what Noah happened to be doing was righteous, rather in Psalms 119:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way to be declared righteous by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, God was gracious to Noah by teaching him how to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was a righteous man because he obeyed through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him, and the way to know God is by walking in His way in obedience to His law. In Genesis 18:19, Abraham taught His children and those of His household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice, so it is all the same eternal law in accordance with the same eternal nature.
 
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Soyeong

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I have already stated that all of the moral laws are contained in the New Testament. I’ve never implied that we can live an immoral way of life and still expect to receive salvation. Hence the statement on my profile “He is a way of life”. Christ is how we live our life.

If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, idolatry, murder, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else that God has commanded, so they are the greatest two commandments because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments and all of the other commandments are examples of what it means to love, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that they all hang on the greatest two commandments. So they are all connected and the fact that the greatest two commandments are contained in the NT means that all of God's other commandments are also contained in the NT. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of His laws are inherently moral laws. Christ lived in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when he is how we live our life.
 
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Leaf473

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You have to follow along the scriptures, which I have already provided. If Jesus became our Passover how is that following the scripture loosely if that's what the scripture says? Trying to justify one thing that is spelled out in scripture and trying to apply it to something that is not, is not following the scriptures.
It's following it loosely because it's not following the letter of the law. And that's what I'm in favor of.

Sounds like we might actually be agreeing!
 
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Leaf473

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And of course even the non-SDA non-Bible Sabbath groups like Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19, and Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19 had that answer.

Apparently your interest is in the non-Sabbath and non-Ten Commandments section of the "Saturday or Sunday" thread -- which is pretty much nill based on the subject title.
Cool! What do the Baptists and Westminsters say about building an altar out of dirt?

How we deal with the permanent non-Sabbath and non-Ten Commandment laws can give us insight into how to deal with the Sabbath and ten commandment laws.
 
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BobRyan

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And of course even the non-SDA non-Bible Sabbath groups like Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19, and Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19 had that answer.

Apparently your interest is in the non-Sabbath and non-Ten Commandments section of the "Saturday or Sunday" thread -- which is pretty much nill based on the subject title.

Cool! What do the Baptists and Westminsters say about building an altar out of dirt?
.

great topic... start a thread on it. This thread is about "Saturday or Sunday church" not "building altars out of dirt".

No sense in derailing this one.
 
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Leaf473

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especially when keeping even one of the pagan days is condemned in Gal 4 and so Rom 14 only deals with the bible approved list of annual days in Lev 23.
The passage begins with accepting the one who is weak in faith. And one person's faith allows them to eat anything, the person with weak faith eats only vegetables.

That's the context when Paul then goes on to talk about all days, certain days.

Hopefully the person who is weak in faith is not keeping one of the pagan holidays as holy. At least not to honor its pagan intent.

But I did see this as well:
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God.
 
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Leaf473

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And Heb 10 says all laws regarding animal sacrifice end at the cross - as even the non-SDA non-Bible Sabbath groups like Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19, and Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19 -- freely admit.
Yep, so we're all left with a quandary.

We can:

1) Do the lamb-killing part of the Passover, because it says the law is permanent. And we want to follow it to the letter.

2) Interpret Hebrews 10 to mean that we are not to kill lambs. This means that some laws described as permanent actually weren't. A possible way around this is that the Hebrew idea of Permanent may have been more like Indefinite time.
 
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Leaf473

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Meager or not - the actual Bible translations point out that 'alike' was inserted and is not in the text.



agreed - pretty much all of them point out that "alike" is not in the actual text but is an insert.
Yes, there is no word for word correspondence with Alike. I think it is required by the text.

Tell me how you would render this in the most literal fashion possible while still retaining the same meaning, if you wish:
Ὃς μὲν κρίνει ἡμέραν παρ’ ἡμέραν, ὃς δὲ κρίνει πᾶσαν ἡμέραν
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It's following it loosely because it's not following the letter of the law. And that's what I'm in favor of.

Sounds like we might actually be agreeing!
No, I don't think we are agreeing. We follow scripture and if there is a change, we follow what that change is, not add that change and apply it to whatever else we want. As a servant of God, we follow His Word, He does not follow ours.
 
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Leaf473

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God's nature is eternal, so the way to act in accordance with His nature is therefore also eternal and does not change over time. For example, if it changed over time that at some point in the future it became righteous to commit adultery, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, and the same is true of God's holiness.

Eating unclean animals has always been an abomination against God's holiness, so that has not and will never change, though it is possible that there is something that caused certain animals to become unclean through the Fall. Unclean animals tend to be predators and scavengers, and animals did not exist in that capacity before the Fall, but after death was introduced, it predators and scavengers became necessary to clean up the environment, and this increase of toxins is a large part of why there are night and day differences between how healthy it is to eat clean or unclean animals. There are time laps videos on Youtube of oysters cleaning up a tank of dirty water and if you won't want to drink dirty water, then you shouldn't want to eat those oysters after they have removed that gunk from the water. It's like eating a dirty air filter, so once you understand their role in the environment, then you see that they weren't intended to be eaten as food. God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), and there are a enormous number of diseases and parasites that have been transferred to humans through eating unclean animals, so God prohibited eating them for our own good because they weren't intended to be eaten as food, though God associated it with His eternal holiness, so there is more to it than that.

In Genesis 9:3, Noah was permitted to eat clean animals. It is not explicitly stated by the Bible, but I don't see a reason why when Adam and Eve were permitted to kill animals for clothing that they weren't also permitted to kill them for food. Furthermore, un Genesis 4:4, Cain brought the firstborn of his flock and the fat portions, and the primary reason for raising a flock is for food, so I don't think that Genesis 9:3 was granting something new, but was just lifting the temporary prohibition of Genesis 6:21.

In Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in God's eyes, that he was a righteous man, and that he walked with God. It was not the case that what Noah happened to be doing was righteous, rather in Psalms 119:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way to be declared righteous by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, God was gracious to Noah by teaching him how to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was a righteous man because he obeyed through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him, and the way to know God is by walking in His way in obedience to His law. In Genesis 18:19, Abraham taught His children and those of His household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice, so it is all the same eternal law in accordance with the same eternal nature.
Do you disagree with this translation of Genesis 9?
Every moving thing that lives will be food for you. As I gave you the green herb, I have given everything to you.
 
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Leaf473

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And of course even the non-SDA non-Bible Sabbath groups like Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19, and Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19 had that answer.

Apparently your interest is in the non-Sabbath and non-Ten Commandments section of the "Saturday or Sunday" thread -- which is pretty much nill based on the subject title.



great topic... start a thread on it. This thread is about "Saturday or Sunday church" not "building altars out of dirt".

No sense in derailing this one.
It relates to this thread in the sense of: We have a collection of laws. How do we deal with them?
 
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Leaf473

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No, I don't think we are agreeing. We follow scripture and if there is a change, we follow what that change is, not add that change and apply it to whatever else we want. As a servant of God, we follow His Word, He does not follow ours.
Right, we agree that we follow the change.

And the stunning thing is that the Passover was described as permanent.

Say Amen somebody!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Right, we agree that we follow the change.

And the stunning thing is that the Passover was described as permanent.

Say Amen somebody!

Are you implying that Jesus is temporary?

1 Cor 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

I get the feeling this is more of a game for some.
 
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