Saturday or Sunday Church?

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

(I was hoping to make faster progress, but it looks like this may take a while. Thank you for your patience.)

Yes, it's possible Paul was going to the synagogue because he was keeping the Sabbath. In that case, you would have been instructing the, say, Corinthians to do the same. But it looks like the Corinthians are having their own service.

Yes, Paul said to imitate him. But this brings us back to the question of whether Paul was keeping the law, or wanted the gentiles to keep it in the same way that he did.

I'm not seeing in Acts 21 that Paul is rejoicing about Jews keeping the law. I see that James and the elders rejoice and praise God for what is happening among the gentiles.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

Acts 21 brings up an interesting situation:

Why does James remark about the Jewish believers in Jerusalem being zealous for the law if the entire church is supposed to be zealous for the law? It makes no sense imo.

James says that the Jews are concerned that Paul is teaching the Jews not to follow the law. He then goes on to say that Paul is obedient to the law. But after that he says, But about the gentiles...
Again, if the entire church is supposed to be obedient to the law, this makes no sense, again imo.

It seems like if Paul had been teaching the gentiles to keep the entire law all this time, we would see his letters to the churches filled with answers to questions about how to keep the law, also imo.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What premise would you like to hear scriptural support for ?

We are invited to enter His Sabbath Rest every day (today if you hear His voice). He is in the Seventh day of creation and not subject to earth time.

The scripture says today if you hear His voice don’t harden your heart. Hebrews 4:7 and is in context to the Israelites hardening their heart by disobedience to God (and a warning for us). Hebrews 4:6 In particular disobeying the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:13. No where does it say we can enter His Sabbath rest every day (these are your words not God’s) and this contradicts Hebrews 4:9-10 and Exodus 20:8-11

We need to be careful not to add our words to the Word of God Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[Aussie Pete]

I agree the entire Mosaic law can be done away with because the moral commandments are still upheld in the New Testament and the New Covenant. We see Jesus and the apostles teaching to observe the moral commandments what we don’t see is them teaching to keep the Mosaic Law. Nothing about keeping the Sabbaths, nothing about the animal sacrifices, nothing about building alters or tabernacles, nothing about the observing the Passover.

Thanks for the backup, you make good points.

 

[Servus]

Do you make it up as you go or is there another that told you these answers.

Do you know that you are responsible for anything you teach and it is false? Even if you are only repeating something you heard.

What he's teaching overall regarding the Saturday sabbath, is in line with the vast majority of Christianity. So if it's false, then so is most of Christianity.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@SabbathBlessings "No where does it say we can enter His Sabbath rest every day"

Wrong, as Paul commented in Heb 4...

When God says "today if you hear my voice" He means Today - in other words any day.

God's 'Today' spans many millenia.

This invitation is basic to the Gospel - Have faith in God and you will enter His peace.

This is the promise throughout the generations in both Covenants..

It is not about one day - it is about every day.

God is still resting in His timeless eternity after creating the universe and mankind.

He extends blessing love and peace to all who respond to Him in faith.

"The one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His..."

The Believer’s Rest
Hebrews 4
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@SabbathBlessings "No where does it say we can enter His Sabbath rest every day"

Wrong, as Paul commented in Heb 4...

When God says "today if you hear my voice" He means Today - in other words any day.

God's 'Today' spans many millenia.

This invitation is basic to the Gospel - Have faith in God and you will enter His peace.

This is the promise throughout the generations in both Covenants..

It is not about one day - it is about every day.

God is still resting in His timeless eternity after creating the universe and mankind.

He extends blessing love and peace to all who respond to Him in faith.

"The one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His..."

The Believer’s Rest
Hebrews 4
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

What is says is:

“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” This is a direct reference to Psalms 95 and is not referring to any new application as clearly shown by the text Hebrews 4:9-10 if seeking Truth to His Word. This also a repeat from the previous chapter Hebrews 3:15

Hebrews 3:15“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

What it does not say is
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”enter His Sabbath rest every day and you can disobey the Sabbath commandment. Which contradicts this entire passage and all of God’s Word.

This verse is a warning to those who harden their heart to being disobedient to God Hebrews 4:6. The reference was breaking the Sabbath commandment- Ezekiel 20:13. As seen we are to keep the Sabbath in the very same passage Hebrews 4:9-10

We should be careful adding our words to the pure Word of God, similar to what you did with John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6

You are actually doing exactly what the warning in this scripture is telling you not to do. This is a warning is to be a true worshiper of God as we are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and not worship in vain Matthew 15:3-9 by placing traditions over the commandments of God.

I’m not the one you need to convince so I guess we will have to agree to disagree and the scriptures are shared with love. God bless.

 

[guevaraj]

Wrong, as Paul commented in Heb 4... When God says "today if you hear my voice" He means Today - in other words any day. God's 'Today' spans many millenia.

Brother, what you chose to do today is not to harden your heart against God's instructions. The rest is entered as God rested from His work on the seventh "day" of creation and God did not rest every "day" of the week of creation nor does He rest since the week of creation as Jesus tells us in the next passage.

So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules. But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.” So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God. (John 5:16-18 NLT)​

This invitation is basic to the Gospel - Have faith in God and you will enter His peace.

The gospel of Jesus was not available to those like Joshua who first heard the good news of entering His Sabbath in the desert and yet were not allowed to enter through an "oath" as punishment for their disobedience.

This is the promise throughout the generations in both Covenants..It is not about one day - it is about every day.

What you are asked to do every day is not to make God angry, as to prevent you from entering His Sabbath for 40 years as punishment to those who died in the desert who were not allowed to enter the Sabbath near the Promised Land with Manna, which Joshua later entered before the seventh day, although Joshua wrongly assumed that this earlier time was the seventh day in the Promised Land.

God is still resting in His timeless eternity after creating the universe and mankind.

Your point of view contradicts Jesus, who says that neither His Father nor Him has rested since the creation of the world.

So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules. But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.” So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God. (John 5:16-18 NLT)​

He extends blessing love and peace to all who respond to Him in faith. "The one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His..."

God only entered His rest on the seventh day of creation and since then is working and not resting, as He gives us rest on the Sabbath. His asking something of us that He has not entered since the creation of the world, because it is a gift to us that He prevented those who died in the desert to enter for 40 years near the Promised Land, that Joshua later entered earlier than the seventh day, although Joshua wrongly assumed this earlier time was the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Aussie Pete]

God gave laws, commandments statues, judgments and ordinances, not all on Mt Sinai. As I stated now probably a few times there are more laws than the Ten Commandments, but only the Ten Commandments was spoken by God, written by the finger of God on stone for its eternal nature and only the Ten Commandments are in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also revealed in Heaven. Revelation 11:19



Honor thy father and mother is one of Ten Commandments because God said so right in His Commandments and Jesus repeated it in Matthew 15:3-9 Exodus 20 and it is the first commandment with a promise Exodus 20:12 Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)

I'm sorry, if this makes you deal with the Sabbath commandment which seems to be why people would rather discard all of the Ten Commandments all to avoid this one commandment- see the power of the Sabbath commandment- God said those who hallow it is a sign between Him and His people. Ezekiel 20:20, Ezekiel 20:12 God said His Sabbath is holy and blessed and we should remember it to keep it holy, Exodus 20:8-11 so I am choosing to believe God's will for us, as I don’t think we should try to make God’s Word fit around our lifestyle, but we conform to His.

You want a relationship with stone. I prefer a relationship with the Living God. You want a relationship with a Book. I prefer a relationship with the Living Word, Jesus.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Brother, what you chose to do today is not to harden your heart against God's instructions. The rest is entered as God rested from His work on the seventh "day" of creation and God did not rest every "day" of the week of creation nor does He rest since the week of creation as Jesus tells us in the next passage.

So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules. But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.” So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God. (John 5:16-18 NLT)​

The gospel of Jesus was not available to those like Joshua who first heard the good news of entering His Sabbath in the desert and yet were not allowed to enter through an "oath" as punishment for their disobedience.

What you are asked to do every day is not to make God angry, as to prevent you from entering His Sabbath for 40 years as punishment to those who died in the desert who were not allowed to enter the Sabbath near the Promised Land with Manna, which Joshua later entered before the seventh day, although Joshua wrongly assumed that this earlier time was the seventh day in the Promised Land.

Your point of view contradicts Jesus, who says that neither His Father nor Him has rested since the creation of the world.

So the Jewish leaders began harassing Jesus for breaking the Sabbath rules. But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.” So the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God. (John 5:16-18 NLT)​

God only entered His rest on the seventh day of creation and since then is working and not resting, as He gives us rest on the Sabbath. His asking something of us that He has not entered since the creation of the world, because it is a gift to us that He prevented those who died in the desert to enter for 40 years near the Promised Land, that Joshua later entered earlier than the seventh day, although Joshua wrongly assumed this earlier time was the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I thought SDA believed that Jesus had already returned?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I thought SDA believed that Jesus had already returned?

This poster does not believe in all the teachings of the SDA church, so I would not rely on his postings or anyone for the matter to speak on behalf of the church.

This is what the SDA church believes What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You want a relationship with stone. I prefer a relationship with the Living God. You want a relationship with a Book. I prefer a relationship with the Living Word, Jesus.

Sorry you don't understand. God knows us through our obedience to Him according to God's Word. 1 John 2:3-5, Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

About Acts 23, remember the situation Paul is in. His goal is to split the Sanhedrin, which is what happens. "To those under the law I became like one under the law"

"Whatever is sold in the butcher shop, eat, asking no question for the sake of conscience."
I can't imagine an uptight Pharisee-type saying something like that. If I were at a cookout today, and was chatting with a rabbi there, and I asked what kind of hot dogs these were, I can't imagine them saying Oh, it doesn't matter.

So Paul may technically have been a Pharisee, but he sounds like a lax kind.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

About Acts 24, I too believe everything in the law and the prophets. It's just a question of how we go about applying it in the new Covenant.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

About 1 John 5:3, 1 John is written late, imo. By that time, possibly even after the temple has been destroyed, the writer probably is thinking of the commandments of Jesus... things like love one another as I have loved you.

Yes, Jesus set a sinless example of how to follow the Torah. But we don't do everything Jesus did. Unless, of course, we are all supposed to go to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover and the feast of Tabernacles.

Definitely, under the old covenant, following the Torah was the way to peace. The question is, how do we apply the Torah in the New Covenant.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

About Acts 2:38, the people to whom Peter is preaching are not yet believers. They are definitely under the law!

 

[guevaraj]

I thought SDA believed that Jesus had already returned?

Brother, no! Jesus has not returned, but I thought you were talking about the first coming of Jesus giving us rest for the soul. I did not notice the word returned when I first replied. Thanks to BobRyan for correcting this misunderstanding in a later post. The rest of the soul is not the day of rest spoken of in Hebrews, chapter 3 and 4. The word "rest" is used in the Bible to refer to two different rests in different contexts: the day of rest and the rest of the soul. Only the day of rest is found in the message of Hebrews, chapter 3 and 4, referring to the rest of God on the seventh day of creation, the Sabbath "rest", ready since God made the world. This day of rest is different from the second rest of the soul, which is not referred to in the message of Hebrews, chapter 3 and 4.

Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NLT)​

Those with Joshua who "first heard" this "good news" of how to enter the Sabbath and were not allowed to enter the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert near the Promised Land did not enter the day of rest during those 40 years, that Joshua later entered at an earlier time than the Seventh day in the Promised Land but wrongly assumed this earlier time was the seventh day. I will summarize the two rests below:

1. The day of rest of God on the seventh day of creation prepared since God made the world.
2. The rest of the soul with the faster forgiveness of our High Priest in heaven compared to the slow animal sacrifices in the earthly temple "copy" for the forgiveness of sins.

There are two different uses of the word rest to be had after Jesus, when only one was available before Jesus for those since Joshua that were not allowed to enter during the 40 years in the desert, the day of rest on the Sabbath, that we are called to enter into, in the new covenant corrected from the human tradition since Joshua of wrongly assuming that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is the seventh day of the week when the Sabbath falls earlier than the seventh day in the Promised Land between two days of the week.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

About wisdom, here's a practical application:

There's something about building an altar out of dirt.
Exodus 20
You shall make an altar of earth for me, and shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle. In every place where I record my name I will come to you and I will bless you.

This tells me that God doesn't need fancy things. We don't need to build expensive churches, an inexpensive industrial style building is fine. Or a house Church.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following it (Jremiah 31:33)

It is possible that Paul went to synagogue because he wanted to continue to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow? In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are instructed to be imitators of Paul as he is an imitator of Christ. In Acts 21:0-24, Paul rejoiced that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Christ gave himself to accomplish on the cross (Titus 2:14), and he planned to take steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, and Pharisees are Torah observant. Acts 24:14, Paul testified that he continued to believe everything in the Torah and the Prophets.

In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. In regard to Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, and said that his yoke was easy and his burden light. By Jesus saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. In Acts 2:38, when Peter instructed His audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Torah was how they knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that would include repenting from breaking the Sabbath.

I agree that there has been a much longer period of time after the destruction of the 2nd temple, though all of God's laws are eternal, so that is for a much longer period of time.

Wisdom that has no practical application is not wisdom, but is useless clutter of no value to know, so wisdom can't be extracted from the law apart from practical application. The Bible does not teach us wisdom for its own sake, but for the sake of doing.

While we should seek to do whatever it is that God instructs us to do through His law, there can be different understandings of how to correctly do what God has instructed, so if we see thinks like Moabites and eunuchs being accepted into the general assembly, then we should question whether it is correct to understand Deuteronomy 23:1-3

Their marriage would not have been sanctioned if she has not been a follower of God who was welcomed into the congregation of Israel (1 Kings 11:1-2, Ezra 9:1-2, 2 Corinthians 6:14)

We disagree about the Lord's assembly, and there's a lot more that could be said. But I think the situation sheds light on a much bigger issue:
How do we know when we've got the right meaning of a Torah passage?

In the old testament, the Levites give the meaning. What is God's plan without the Levites? Shall everyone decide for themselves what the meaning is?

Throughout the history of the church, were those illiterate peasants expected to buy a handwritten copy of the Torah, learn Hebrew, and read it for themselves?

This is why I say that Torah is designed to function as a whole. It's like a transmission with all its gears. Take away some of those gears, and the transmission doesn't work right anymore.

And related to that, the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 23 speaks of children of an illegal union. But the Septuagint says children of a prostitute.

Which text is correct? One thing they could do in the old Testament is consult the urim and the thummim. If they were still around today, we could consult them as to which was the right text.

We have to be sure of the text before we talk about the meaning imo.

 

[BobRyan]

I thought SDA believed that Jesus had already returned?

Nope. SDAs teach that Jesus will return/appear after the future tribulation as Matt 24 says. At that point the saints will be rapture as we see in both Matt 24 and also 1 Thess 4. It is the same as the Rev 19 event that starts the 1000 year millennium.