Saturday or Sunday Church?

[BobRyan]

Every denomination has a different test...

and yet it is not all that confusing.. notice that in Acts 17:11 you have what we might today call "two different denominations" and the non-Christian one is "studying the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things are so that were spoken by the Apostle Paul". What is worse their own magisterium is telling them that Paul's teaching is to be condemned.

So using your statement above -- those non-Christians should have rejected Paul - but rather instead of that - they conclude that Paul's teaching is correct and their own magesterium is in error.

Same thing happens in Mark 7:6-13 where Christ condemns His own magesterium using the sola scriptura test. And many of His fellow Jews conclude that He is correct and the Jewish leaders/teachers are not correct.

Same thing happens in Acts 17, same thing happens in Acts 18:4 with both Jews and Greeks.

The very thing some folks want to claim "does not work" - is seen "working" in the NT.

I know a denomination that is called the "fifth largest Christian denomination in the world" by ChristianityToday in Jan/Feb 2015, that is also one of the fastest growing - and this principle appears to work there.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The law that Romans 9:30-10:16 is referring to is inclusive of the Sabbath.

And Paul spells out, in that passage, that righteousness comes by faith, not obedience to the Law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And you probably agree with me here when I say that there is no Bible command saying "obey the Holy Spirit but not scripture, not the Word of God" as if the two are somehow opposed to each other.

Ok but I would imagine that you would also agree with me that the law in the New Testament is not the same law as the Old Testament. I mean your quoting verses indicating changes to the law. Sin offerings are no longer needed, circumcision is abolished, the Passover has ended, the dietary laws have ended, the temple is gone, there is no tabernacle, no alter, the Levitican priests are disbanded. So to say we’re still obligated to keep the law is impossible with all of these changes. I am fully confident that the gospels and the epistles of the New Testament contain everything we need to know for salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The law that Romans 9:30-10:16 is referring to is inclusive of the Sabbath.

Yet “He who believes will not be disappointed”.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thats why we can only believe the Word of God.

If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 said Jesus
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 said John
Showing mercy to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6 said God

Your argument is not with me.

Is that because you only present Scripture perfectly without error ?

Presenting Scripture that aligns with the 'Word of God' is a different matter altogether.

 

[Soyeong]

And Paul spells out, in that passage, that righteousness comes by faith, not obedience to the Law.

While Paul denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our righteousness by our obedience as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith uphold God's law. Furthermore, there are many other verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to God's law, and connects our unbelief with our disobedience:

God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and obedience to any set of instructions that are for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith.

 

[Carl Emerson]

and yet it is not all that confusing.. notice that in Acts 17:11 you have what we might today call "two different denominations" and the non-Christian one is "studying the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things are so that were spoken by the Apostle Paul". What is worse their own magisterium is telling them that Paul's teaching is to be condemned.

So using your statement above -- those non-Christians should have rejected Paul - but rather instead of that - they conclude that Paul's teaching is correct and their own magesterium is in error.

Same thing happens in Mark 7:6-13 where Christ condemns His own magesterium using the sola scriptura test. And many of His fellow Jews conclude that He is correct and the Jewish leaders/teachers are not correct.

Same thing happens in Acts 17, same thing happens in Acts 18:4 with both Jews and Greeks.

The very thing some folks want to claim "does not work" - is seen "working" in the NT.

I know a denomination that is called the "fifth largest Christian denomination in the world" by ChristianityToday in Jan/Feb 2015, that is also one of the fastest growing - and this principle appears to work there.

The Sola Scripture test only works if He is giving the grace to see...

Human loyalty to doctrine blinds.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok but I would imagine that you would also agree with me that the law in the New Testament is not the same law as the Old Testament. I mean your quoting verses indicating changes to the law. Sin offerings are no longer needed, circumcision is abolished, the Passover has ended, the dietary laws have ended, the temple is gone, there is no tabernacle, no alter, the Levitican priests are disbanded. So to say we’re still obligated to keep the law is impossible with all of these changes. I am fully confident that the gospels and the epistles of the New Testament contain everything we need to know for salvation.

The commandments of God- the Ten Commandments have not changed from the Old to the New Covenant- God wrote His law in our hearts and minds instead of deleting them Hebrews 8:10. As we see Jesus quoting directly from the Ten saying to keep the least of the commandments (least means all) Matthew 5:19-30 or James again quoting from the Ten Commandments saying you break one you break them all James 2:10-12. Jesus again quoting directly from the Ten saying one worships in vain when they keep traditions over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9

It's not impossible to understand the changes to the sacrificial system if one is following the scriptures. There are 3 chapters dedicated to circumcision which is not a commandment of God and Paul makes this distinction on the differences 1 Cor 7:19. Jesus was crucified because they thought He broke the Sabbath commandment- why because it is the law in the New Covenant- of course Jesus did not break the Sabbath commandment, but if there was going to be a change to something as important of the day of worship and the Holy Day of the Lord thy God that everyone kept in the New Testament including Jesus and the apostles there would have been an uproar in scripture not silence. Jesus never mentioned a change to the Sabbath after He rose, but instead indicated it would be kept long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20 and the Sabbath remains as the day of worship for eternity thus saith the Lord. Isaiah 66:23

What's most compelling is Daniel predicted the Sabbath would be changed in scripture Daniel 7:25, which is exactly what happened and not on the authority of God. What gets really interesting once you start studying the book of revelation and the seven churches it lines up perfectly with the history of the church and how many Pegan traditions started being mixed with God's pure Word. There is a counterfeit to everything God made.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

 

[BobRyan]

The Sola Scripture test only works if He is giving the grace to see...

Human loyalty to doctrine blinds.

The difference between all the times it works in the NT - and when it does not work - is not that God just "does not care" to give some people what is needed to know how to accept what the Bible teaches.

This is not a "its all God's fault" situation.

The Bible says "God is not willing for ANY to perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.

People have free will and can "choose" to be stubborn to the point that God says in Isaiah 5:4 "what More was there to do than that which I have already done?? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad??"

In John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

The text never says "and He just did not care enough to follow through and enable His OWN to accept Him"

 

[Soyeong]

Yet “He who believes will not be disappointed”.

In regard to faith.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, in John 1:14, the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and in John 14:6, Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, so he was claiming to be the living embodiment of God's law, which is evidence by the fact that he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the personification of God's nature expressed through God's law, or in other words he is the physical manifestation of God's law, so obedience to the law of which he is the living embodiment is the way to believe in the nature of who he is, or in other words, the way to believe in him. This is why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to him, such as those that I listed in my previosu post. The way that we live testifies about what we believe to be true about the nature of who God, is so when we do good works in obedience to God's law we are expressing the belief that he is good and testifying about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him, and it is that faith that by which we are justified. The way to believe in Jesus is not by rejecting the law that God gave to testify about the nature of who he is.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Is that because you only present Scripture perfectly without error ?

Presenting Scripture that aligns with the 'Word of God' is a different matter altogether.

Are you saying that God who wrote Exodus 20:6 with His own finger is in conflict with His own Word?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The difference between all the times it works in the NT - and when it does not work - is not that God just "does not care" to give some people what is needed to know how to accept what the Bible teaches.

This is not a "its all God's fault" situation.

Exactly - human loyalty to doctrine blinds.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Are you saying that God who wrote Exodus 20:6 with His own finger is in conflict with His own Word?

Not at all, but one has to understand how and when it applies.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Not at all, but one has to understand how and when it applies.

God applied Exodus 20:6 right in the Ten Commandments- I am going to believe God meant what He said and wrote instead of leaning on my own interpretations Proverbs 3:5 . that is opposite of what God said and Jesus taught.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok but I would imagine that you would also agree with me that the law in the New Testament is not the same law as the Old Testament.

In the NT - Jesus said "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones" in Matt 19. you and I both know that He then quotes exclusively from the OT.

We also both agree that in James 2 where James write "he who is guilty of one is guilty of all" -- he gives a sample list of commandments - and quotes exclusively - from the OT commandments.

So we cannot make the claim that "Not the OT commandments" is a teaching of the NT.
Or "Not a commandment for us -- if we find it in the OT".. that is also not a doctrine in the NT.

I mean your quoting verses indicating changes to the law. Sin offerings are no longer needed,

, the dietary laws have ended, the temple is gone, there is no tabernacle, no alter, the Levitican priests are disbanded. So to say we’re still obligated to keep the law is impossible with all of these changes. I am fully confident that the gospels and the epistles of the New Testament contain everything we need to know for salvation.[/QUOTE]

circumcision is abolished

That is difficult to prove for two reasons

1. No OT text says Gentiles have to circumcised to be saved. Rather that was an idea invented only in the NT - by Christian Judaizers because they had the "special problem" of being in the Christian religion where gentile converts would soon outnumber Jewish ones and the Jewish-ness of the Christian faith would be felt less and less as it would soon be seen as a "gentile church" rather than just a sect of Judaism.

2. Secondly - Paul is confronted on this very point. Charged with making the claim that Jews should no longer circumcise their children once they became Christians. Acts 21:17-26 we see Paul taking some very bold and public steps to "prove" that he is not teaching Jews to do that. If a big part of his ministry was exactly that - to tell Jews not to circumcise their children once they became Christians - then I do not see any way that we would have the Acts 21 text that we are reading there. So what happens in Acts 22 - Paul has Timothy circumcised even though he is an adult and his father is a gentile (but his mother is a Jew).

, the Passover has ended

"Christ our Passover has been slain" 1 Cor 5. So we see that type has met antitype.

Yet Paul continued to observe it - even though his gentile companions did not. And Rom 14 says of all those OT holy days - that people are free to "observe one above the others" or even "observe them all" depending on the dictates of their conscience.

 

[BobRyan]

Exactly - human loyalty to doctrine blinds.

more precisely "human loyalty to man-made tradition blinds" as we see in Mark 7:6-13. But that error is "exposed" as Christ points out in that chapter "sola scriptura".

 

[BobRyan]

The house of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness and their disobedience of not walking in God's statues, despising His judgments and greatly defiling His sabbaths were a manifestation of their unbelief.

And yet both Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 on the mount of transfiguration before the cross even happens.

what is more - ALL of the giants of faith held forth as examples for NT saints in Heb 11 -- are OT saints... 100%

 

[Carl Emerson]

the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and in John 14:6, Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, so he was claiming to be the living embodiment of God's law,

He was not claiming to be the living embodiment of the Law of Moses.

 

[Carl Emerson]

God applied Exodus 20:6 right in the Ten Commandments- I am going to believe God meant what He said and wrote instead of leaning on my own interpretations Proverbs 3:5 . that is opposite of what God said and Jesus taught.

But you have interpretations that differ with others. Are you claiming not to interpret? Are you claiming to always hear what God says about a passage of scripture ???

 

[BobRyan]

But you have interpretations that differ with others.

As did Noah, as did John the baptizer, as did Christ, as did Paul -- and "yet" we see that even non-Christians "get the point" when they "studied the scriptures to see IF those things were so" as taught by the Christian Apostle Paul in Acts 17:11.

To keep circling back to "yes but people differ" or "opinions vary" is not to bring up a new detail - but rather the same ol' detail faced by Moses, Noah, John, Paul, Christ... the Christian church in the dark ages, all Protestant reformers...

No bible text says "if opinions vary then ignore what scripture says - because the subject must be complicated and therefore must not matter"

==================

In Noah's day who would believe him since not only did they have no floods -- they had no rain. So "opinions did sure enough - vary".

And the majority "got it wrong".
And "it still mattered"