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Thy will be done in which heaven ?

The Liturgist

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Thanks for the reply, from these sections of your reply of which I have bolded, I think you are implying that, had the Lord's prayer been found in the Torah section of the OT, you would not give it the same prominence?

Am I correct in my interpretation?

That’s an extremely hypothetical question, and Ronald Reagan wisely observed that he never got into trouble by not answering hypotheticals. So forgive me, but I am not going to answer that now, just as I did not answer when you posed a similiar hypothetical question albeit with the Lord’s Prayer having been hypothetically included in Malachi. This is because these questions are both irrelevant, owing to the simple and obvious fact that the simple fact that the Lord’s Prayer is neither in the Torah nor in the book of the Holy Prophet St. Malachi (and consequently, any points one might derive from my answer to it would be moot), but also literally unanswerable, because there are a million variables, such as where it appeared in the Torah, who said it, to whom it was addressed, what our Lord and the Apostles and Evangelists said about it, how the early church received interpreted it, its role in the liturgy of the Christian church, in antiquity and at present (and also its role in Judaism both before and after the Incarnation would need to be studied), and how later theologians interpreted it.

Rather, in my previous post I took the more practical approach of explaining why your position that the Lord’s Prayer is inapplicable to Gentiles is erroneous, and that answer should be sufficient. And I am prepared to discuss my answer, including any questions or objections, provided that they do not involve hypothetical scenarios of the Lord’s Prayer or other scriptural text being located somewhere in Scripture other than where they are, or revealed by someone other than whoever revealed them (in the case of the Lord’s Prayer that being God Himself in the Flesh), for I maintain that these hypotheticals are devoid both of relevance and objective answerability, for the reasons I set out above.

Furthermore, to avoid derailing our friend @Carl Emerson ‘s thread, where he is raising a truly interesting point concerning divine immutability, I would respectfully suggest you create a new thread and @ tag me in it, or reply to this post in the opening post, by hitting Post Reply here and copy-pasting the text to the new thread. If you need any assistance or want me to start the thread, let me know, and in this manner we can separate what could be a distracting segue (which is as much my fault as anyone’s) from the very interesting discussion posted by my dear friend @Carl Emerson .
 
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Yes but the matter I would like to establish is that this heaven being referred to has two essential elements.

First it is eternal and therefore pre-existed creation.

Second it is perfect and unaffected by the fall.

As to proximity this is a non question as the eternal heaven is not part of creation but in a different dimension of existence.

Now we know from Scripture from Ecc 3 that He has put eternity in the heart of man.

We also know that the Kingdom of God is within us and where Jesus reigns there is perfection.

So why is this important and where is it leading.

Those involved in deliverance must have a firm grasp of the laws that the spiritual forces they are dealing with are subject to.

The conclusion then is that all mankind has a space within them that only God can occupy.

That is because Satan cant cross the barrier between time and eternity being a created being.

I would also note that God is not bound by space and time but exists outside of them, because he created them. So your concept becomes even more interesting if we say that what you are referring to as Heaven is actually God’s divine essence, which is unconstrained by Spacetime; He created Spacetime and is thus alone independent of it. Thus, one could take your concept and say that because God is everywhere present, and is also present in all men, and the spirit fully indwells those who have faith in Jesus Christ, since no created being can exist outside of spacetime, the devil cannot possess someone who is in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit, because God is not only omnipresent in this universe, but is also unbound by it, existing independently of it, which the devil obviously is incapable of. Indeed, I would expect that just as humans cannot comprehend the uncreated essence of God, neither can the angels, who indeed cannot even look at God, whereas we can through purity of heart.

So, how does my interpretation of your idea sound? Because I love your concept, and I am hoping that what I just outlined will assist you in refining your concept and overcoming any possible Scriptural, Traditional or Rational objections anyone might raise.

While it is commonly held that Christians cant be possessed if God is indwelling them - few seem to understand why.

So I have been reflecting on this, and I have a few thoughts:

  • I don’t think Heaven is eternal, at least in the same sense as God, because in Genesis 1:1 it says “In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,” and in John 1:1-3, it establishes that it was by the Word of God, who is God, the second person of the Trinity, that all things were made; this some people argue is the reason for the third person statements of what we might assume is the Father, but which could be His Son, the Word (or even the Spirit, but in scripture the Spirit is not reported as having spoken aloud, whereas the Father is, rather the Spirit and the Word are visible, although the appearance of the Spirit is variable whereas the Word, as the Son of God, is spiritually the embodied image of the incorporeal Father*, and the prototypical image of God that we humans are made in the image of), whereas others argue the third person is like the Royal We; this I doubt, because our God usually uses first person language when referring to Himself, and the intimate second person singular when communing to us, for instance “Saul, Saul, why dost Thou persecute me?” In contrast, the Islamic deity always refers to itself in the third person, despite being a Unitarian idol, who is claimed by many Muslims and especially the Druze religion, which is a secretive Islamic Gnostic cult related to the Pythagorean religion, as being devoid of attributes.
  • Further to the previous point, can anything created be eternal in the sense of existing outside of time and being completely immutable like God? It is via Theosis that we are saved from death and acquire immortality or eternity in the world to come. I have to be careful in discussing this by the way, because when I was a child, I developed a terrible fear of either ceasing to exist or existing forever (and no, I had never seen Doctor Who; the fear came to me one night at Disneyland along with a few other existential fears, including a fear that reality was unreal and an inability to comprehend how God came into existence. These I have largely overcome, and my father confessor explained to me my terror of eternity was actually a fear of Hell, which makes sense, and this is a legitimate fear, for I have sinned grievously, however, St. Silouan the Athonite** warns us that we should flee from two terrible and destructive ideas: firstly being that we are saintly, and secondly, that our sins are so great that we are beyond the hope of salvation in Christ.
  • Scripture does say that God will make a new Heaven and a new Earth in the Eschaton, which combined with everything else, suggests that Heaven is temporal.
  • It is also established that Heaven is where our souls repose awaiting the Resurrection, and also some people dwell their bodily, with the Holy Mother of God being assumed after her repose, as commemorated in the Dormition Fast and subsequent feast, also known as the Assumption, on August 15th. And St. Elias the Prophet was taken up while still alive in a Chariot of Fire. And likewise, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son and Word of God, dwells in Heaven in his resurrected body, having Ascended as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. Thus created beings can be present there, although they have experienced or are experiencing theosis, or are in the case of Jesus Christ fully God and fully Man.
  1. In the case of our adversary the devil, God can completely control him, and if he tried to go where he oughtn’t, whether into the souls of those where the Holy Spirit indwells, or into the abode of the righteous, St. Michael the Archangel will give him a proper whoopin’, as we call it in the Southern United States.
Now, it may sound like I just attempted to torpedo your whole idea, but I promise you this is not the case. On the contrary, I think your core insight is actually entirely correct. However, I think the Holy Spirit Himself ticks all of the boxes of Heaven in your conceptualization: God is unbounded, infinite, exists outside of time, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit puts eternity in the hearts of man and makes diabolical possession impossible.

Also, even if the Holy Spirit, whose omnipresence I would argue could be considered to constitute the Kingdom of God in our midst, does not fully indwell a man, He is still there, and His presence enables us to chose to have faith and be baptized in Christ, and having put on Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit, whose presence prevents demons, evil spirits, from entering, unless we commit apostasy, for example, by dabbling in witchcraft, which had led to a number of demonic possessions (even reading horoscopes I can testify from my individual and professional experience can be extremely dangerous).

With the Holy Spirit indwelling us through Baptism and the Eucharist, we can in turn perform good works as part of our faith, and this process enables Theosis, what John Wesley called Entire Sanctification.

* Eastern Orthodox canon law prohibits depicting the Father in icons, although I have seen uncanonical icons which do depict Him as an old man with grey hair, presumably based on The Holy Prophet St. Isaac’s vision of the Ancient of Days, which Orthodox and most other traditional theologians interpret as a vision of Jesus Christ, for John 1:18 states “No man has seen the Father at any time; the Lord has declared Him.”

** St. Silouan was great Russian Orthodox monk born in 1866, who after leaving the Imperial Russian Army at the age of 27, became a monk and lived in the autonomous Eastern Orthodox monastic community of Mount Athos in Greece, at St. Panteleimon’s Monastery, from 1893 until his repose in 1938, and who was glorified in 1987 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which is the official government of Mount Athos, responsible for issuing visas to pilgrims and prospective monks and enforcing the monastic regulations, for instance, the prohibition on women entering the Holy Mountain, which is reserved as the personal garden of the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, they are dependent on Greek police to provide security and enforce these emergency services, and for defense and other things, so their autonomy is not the same as the sovereignty of the Vatican City.
 
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fhansen

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So I have been reflecting on this, and I have a few thoughts:

  • I don’t think Heaven is eternal, at least in the same sense as God, because in Genesis 1:1 it says “In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth,” and in John 1:1-3, it establishes that it was by the Word of God, who is God, the second person of the Trinity, that all things were made; this some people argue is the reason for the third person statements of what we might assume is the Father, but which could be His Son, the Word (or even the Spirit, but in scripture the Spirit is not reported as having spoken aloud, whereas the Father is, rather the Spirit and the Word are visible, although the appearance of the Spirit is variable whereas the Word, as the Son of God, is spiritually the embodied image of the incorporeal Father*, and the prototypical image of God that we humans are made in the image of), whereas others argue the third person is like the Royal We; this I doubt, because our God usually uses first person language when referring to Himself, and the intimate second person singular when communing to us, for instance “Saul, Saul, why dost Thou persecute me?” In contrast, the Islamic deity always refers to itself in the third person, despite being a Unitarian idol, who is claimed by many Muslims and especially the Druze religion, which is a secretive Islamic Gnostic cult related to the Pythagorean religion, as being devoid of attributes.
  • Further to the previous point, can anything created be eternal in the sense of existing outside of time and being completely immutable like God? It is via Theosis that we are saved from death and acquire immortality or eternity in the world to come. I have to be careful in discussing this by the way, because when I was a child, I developed a terrible fear of either ceasing to exist or existing forever (and no, I had never seen Doctor Who; the fear came to me one night at Disneyland along with a few other existential fears, including a fear that reality was unreal and an inability to comprehend how God came into existence. These I have largely overcome, and my father confessor explained to me my terror of eternity was actually a fear of Hell, which makes sense, and this is a legitimate fear, for I have sinned grievously, however, St. Silouan the Athonite** warns us that we should flee from two terrible and destructive ideas: firstly being that we are saintly, and secondly, that our sins are so great that we are beyond the hope of salvation in Christ.
  • Scripture does say that God will make a new Heaven and a new Earth in the Eschaton, which combined with everything else, suggests that Heaven is temporal.
  • It is also established that Heaven is where our souls repose awaiting the Resurrection, and also some people dwell their bodily, with the Holy Mother of God being assumed after her repose, as commemorated in the Dormition Fast and subsequent feast, also known as the Assumption, on August 15th. And St. Elias the Prophet was taken up while still alive in a Chariot of Fire. And likewise, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Son and Word of God, dwells in Heaven in his resurrected body, having Ascended as the firstfruits of the Resurrection. Thus created beings can be present there, although they have experienced or are experiencing theosis, or are in the case of Jesus Christ fully God and fully Man.
  1. In the case of our adversary the devil, God can completely control him, and if he tried to go where he oughtn’t, whether into the souls of those where the Holy Spirit indwells, or into the abode of the righteous, St. Michael the Archangel will give him a proper whoopin’, as we call it in the Southern United States.
Now, it may sound like I just attempted to torpedo your whole idea, but I promise you this is not the case. On the contrary, I think your core insight is actually entirely correct. However, I think the Holy Spirit Himself ticks all of the boxes of Heaven in your conceptualization: God is unbounded, infinite, exists outside of time, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit puts eternity in the hearts of man and makes diabolical possession impossible.

Also, even if the Holy Spirit, whose omnipresence I would argue could be considered to constitute the Kingdom of God in our midst, does not fully indwell a man, He is still there, and His presence enables us to chose to have faith and be baptized in Christ, and having put on Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit, whose presence prevents demons, evil spirits, from entering, unless we commit apostasy, for example, by dabbling in witchcraft, which had led to a number of demonic possessions (even reading horoscopes I can testify from my individual and professional experience can be extremely dangerous).

With the Holy Spirit indwelling us through Baptism and the Eucharist, we can in turn perform good works as part of our faith, and this process enables Theosis, what John Wesley called Entire Sanctification.

* Eastern Orthodox canon law prohibits depicting the Father in icons, although I have seen uncanonical icons which do depict Him as an old man with grey hair, presumably based on The Holy Prophet St. Isaac’s vision of the Ancient of Days, which Orthodox and most other traditional theologians interpret as a vision of Jesus Christ, for John 1:18 states “No man has seen the Father at any time; the Lord has declared Him.”

** St. Silouan was great Russian Orthodox monk born in 1866, who after leaving the Imperial Russian Army at the age of 27, became a monk and lived in the autonomous Eastern Orthodox monastic community of Mount Athos in Greece, at St. Panteleimon’s Monastery, from 1893 until his repose in 1938, and who was glorified in 1987 by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which is the official government of Mount Athos, responsible for issuing visas to pilgrims and prospective monks and enforcing the monastic regulations, for instance, the prohibition on women entering the Holy Mountain, which is reserved as the personal garden of the Blessed Virgin Mary. However, they are dependent on Greek police to provide security and enforce these emergency services, and for defense and other things, so their autonomy is not the same as the sovereignty of the Vatican City.
I think the term “heavens” in “God created the heavens and the earth” meant the “upper” regions of the universe in the ancient mind. As it constitutes a higher, unknown area it’s also the abode of God as we must relate everything to physical properties in an attempt to conceive of them. But I like what Pope Emeritus Benedict 16 wrote in one of his books: “God is heaven”. Where He is, heaven is. I think that comes closer to identifying both the location and the nature of the “place”.
 
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Hawkins

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When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

Heaven (singular) refers to God's current dwelling place, where no humans (except for Jesus of course) have set foot on it yet. After the Final Judgment, God's dwelling place may 'merge' with humans' dwelling space, it's the New Heaven and New Earth.
 
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EclipseEventSigns

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Well, considering the Psalms and other Old Testament canticles, such as Benedicite Omni Opera (the song of the three children who Nebuchadnezzar tried to burn in a furnace, but an Angel or possibly Jesus Christ appeared with them and they were protected), and the Songs of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah, are essential parts of Christian hymnody, and the Summary of the Law given by Jesus Christ includes what is basically the Shema, which is the Jewish creedal hymn and the basis for the First Commandment of the Decalogue (followed by the Golden Rule), and given that the Aaronic Blessing is commonly used in church liturgies, for example, as our friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis will confirm, it is the dismissal for several traditional Lutheran liturgies, I would feel close to the way I feel.

However, just as the Torah or Pentateuch is the most important part of Scripture to the Jews, for Christians of traditional theological views, the Gospel is central, and that Gospel has been handed down in four canonical books, with the purpose of the Epistles being to expound upon the doctrine and theology, and of Acts to show the work of the Holy Spirit amidst the disciples, and of the Apocalypse (Revelation) to provide an eschatological and mystagogical vision and also to allow those messages St. John the Beloved Disciple received from our Lord to be communicated.*

The important thing is that these Gospels represent the keystone of Sacred Scripture, because they discuss the incarnation of God Himself, when the Divine Logos, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, became human, putting on our nature and uniting it hypostatically with His divine nature, without change, confusion, division or separation. And thus what Jesus Christ, whose name can be translated as The Messiah, YHWH (who) Saves (Us), and who is also called Emanuel, meaning God with Us (El or Elohim being the generic Hebrew word for God, and YHWH, “I AM that I AM” being the proper name of God,
does and says in the four Gospels, is nothing less than the central part of the Bible.

Ergo, when our Lord, God and Savior teaches us how to pray in the Gospels According to Matthew and Luke, that is extremely important. That St. Paul doesn’t repeat it is irrelevant, because St. Paul’s epistles were not selected because they repeat the Gospels but rather because they, along with the epistles of the other Apostles, Saints Peter, John, James, Jude, and the unknown author of Hebrews, provide the material needed by the Church to reinforce the Gospel through exegesis.

It is also worth noting that just as St. Mark was a disciple of St. Peter, St. Luke was a disciple of St. Paul, and since, unlike St. Matthew the Apostle and St. John the Beloved Disciple, they were not present at most of the events in the Gospels, St. Mark recorded St. Peter’s recollection of events, and St. Luke recorded a recollection of events that had been aggregated by St. Paul based on his interaction with other the Apostles and the Christophany he experienced on the Road to Damascus.

Additionally, I strongly believe Chapter I of the Gospel According to Luke was narrated to him by Our Lady, the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, for tradition establishes he was a physician and painter, and specifically looked after St. Mary in Ephesus and painted a portrait of her, now lost; this makes even more sense when we consider that our Lord on the Cross had His mother adopt St. John the Beloved Disciple (who was likely the youngest apostle; I believe he was in his early teenage years based on the conventional dating of the Gospel of John to the late 70s, and the Apocalypse to 90 AD, and his repose from natural causes in 93 AD (he was the only one of the Eleven Faithful Disciples not to have been martyred but to die peacefully of natural causes); he was also the mentor of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was fed to lions around 105 AD in the Coliseum, and St. Polycarp of Smyrna, who was himself martyred at around 90 years of age around 150 AD, and St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons were their disciples). St. John in turn became the Bishop of the Church in Ephesus, which St. Paul seems to have had far more praise for, and fewer problems to address, than the others he visited and wrote epistles to, and St. Luke and St. Mary were said to have lived in Ephesus, and it was there she reposed and was translated bodily into Heaven, which is commemorated on the Feast of the Assumption, also known as The Dormition, on August 15th.

Thus, the Four Gospels are the vital beating heart of Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition, with each Gospel being like one of the four chambers of the heart, and thus what they say defines the meaning of the rest of Scripture, as we read at the end of the Gospel of Luke, when our Lord opened the Scriptures (which at the time were the books of the Old Testament, since it would be 20 year before the oldest parts of the New Testament, and showed the remaining eleven disciples they were all about Him, and the same is obviously true of the other books of the new New), and furthermore, one of the two Evangelists to record the Lord’s Prayer had a special relationship with St. Paul, a biography of Paul being a major part of Acts, and the Blessed Virgin Mary and her adopted son St. John the Beloved Disciple, since Saints Luke, John and Mary lived in Ephesus, where St. Paul frequently visited, this shows the Lord’s Prayer happened, St. Paul knew about it, probably from St. John, and St. Luke recorded it. St. Paul in turn regarded the Church in Ephesus as exemplary, and the four most important Patristic figures of the second century were disciples of St. John (St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons). Thus we can say that St. Paul approved of the Lord’s Prayer and regarded it as generally applicable, just like the other teachings of our Lord, for example, the Eucharist, the Institution Narrative of the Last Supper being recorded in the three Synoptic Gospels and in 1 Corinthians XI, and the Eucharist being described as a sacrament vital for our salvation in Chapter VI of the Gospel of John.

*Indeed, many scholars refer to the books penned by St. Luke the Evangelist as Luke-Acts; I think we should also talk about the Apocalypse as being a direct followup to the Gospel of John; of course the normal practice is to talk about the Johannine Corpus to avoid deprecating the Epistles, which is important, but there are too many revisionists trying to claim someone else wrote the Apocalypse). And of course, the Gospels of Matthew and Mark are standalone writings, but each of the four canonical Gospels forms a mosaic that teaches us about the life of our Lord.

There may have been a fifth legitimate Gospel of Peter, but unfortunately only a fragment concerning the Passion and the Empty Tomb survives, which is interesting, but insufficient to dispel concerns of some bishops that it had a Docetic heretical aspect. I hope one day a complete manuscript of it, and Origen’s Hexapla turns up. The former is likely useless, but the latter would be genuinely interesting. As for the other apocryphal “Gospels”, I think the Gospel of Thomas is a corruption of a list of sayings written down by the disciples of Thomas, Addai and Mari, in Syriac, because there was no Syriac Gospel until Tatian completed the Diatessaron in the mid second century, before leaving the Christian Church to found a cult related to the Severians. This book is a harmony of the four Gospels, the first one ever written as far as we know, which is lost, but which scholars have reconstructed using commentaries written by St. Ephraim the Syrian and others, and frankly, the individual Gospels make for much better reading, which explains why, as soon as the Peshitta, the widely respected Syriac Bible was completed in the fourth century, the bishops of Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, India, and places further afield made sure that the Diatessarons were removed and replaced by the Peshitta Bibles as quickly as possible. Before the Diatessaron, the Gospel was preached orally in what became the Church of the East (indeed St. Thomas the Apostle, who is often called “doubting Thomas” but that is a gross misreading of his life and dedication, was preaching the Gospel in Kerala when the Hindu raja became enraged and martyred him with a Javelin. The Coptic “Gospel of Thomas” has enough parallels with the Synoptic Gospels that I think that it could have started out as a written reference of the sayings of our Lord, so these could be repeated verbatim when preaching the Gospel. However there are also clear heretical interpolations, and the document is written in Coptic, whereas St. Thomas spoke Aramaic, Greek, and probably proto-Malayalam, so this is a copy of a copy, and either the Synoptic quotes were copied from one of the four Gospels, or a legitimate sayings document, and this document was edited to reflect the heterodox theology of whoever wrote the manuscript.

Lest the idea of St. Thomas preaching in India seem improbable, it should be noted that thanks to the exploits of Alexander the Great, and before him the Persian and Mesopotamian civilizations, which thrived on commerce between India and the Levant, contact between ancient Greece and India was very firmly established by the 3rd century BC, and continued after the rise of the Roman Empire, and later the Muslim world became extremely powerful by controlling trade between Europe and India, just as the Mongolians, some of whom were Buddhist, others Muslims, others adherents of the traditional Mongolian Tengrist religion, and some members of the Church of the East, before the Christians of Central Asia, Mongolia, China and Tibet were killed by the Uzbek Muslim warlord Tamerlane in the 12th century AD. As a result of the commerce between Greece and India, therehave been Jews in Kerala since 200 BC; most of them, known as the Kochin Jews, have emigrated to Israel, but their synagogue is preserved, and the most famous of the Kochin Jews in recent years is the late hairstylist Vidal Sassoon.

Mixing in error with your supposed truth needs to be called out. "as soon as the Peshitta, the widely respected Syriac Bible was completed in the fourth century" is a provably false statement. The Peshitta was NOT completed in the fourth century. It is the actual original language version of the books contained within. They were completed within the first century AD. The Greek translations done shortly after each was written.
 
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The Liturgist

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Mixing in error with your supposed truth needs to be called out. "as soon as the Peshitta, the widely respected Syriac Bible was completed in the fourth century" is a provably false statement. The Peshitta was NOT completed in the fourth century. It is the actual original language version of the books contained within. They were completed within the first century AD. The Greek translations done shortly after each was written.

Forgive me, but we have discussed this previously; even in the extremely unlikely event that Aramaic Primacy is correct, it is a certainty that Peshitta Primacy as advocated by George Lamsa is incorrect, because the Classical Syriac in which it was written did not exist until the late 3rd century, and St. Ephrem writing in the first half of the 4th century quoted from a translation of the four Gospels into Old Syriac known as the Vetus Syra, which like the Vetus Latina, and to a lesser extent the Peshitta itself, follows the rare Western Text Type. Specifically, St. Ephrem quoted from a manuscript later recovered at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai known as the Codex Sinaiticus Syriacus, not to be confused with the Codex Sinaiticus, which is a complete Bible in the Alexandrian text type written in Koine Greek (where as the Codex Sinaiticus Syriacus is a Palimpsest, a manuscript that was overwritten, which contains only the four Gospels, following the Western text type, in Old Syriac). Furthermore, the Peshitta originally contained only 22 books; the remaining five books of the New Testament were not translated into Classical Syriac until the early sixth century by the Syriac Orthodox Bishop St. Philoxenus of Mabbug.

Thus, while we cannot completely disprove Aramaic Primacy (although Biblical scholarship, whether it is conservative or liberal, and whether it is Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant, has, after years of study, come to regard Aramaic Primacy as extremely doubtful), and while it is true that most of the dialogue in the Gospels, Acts and the Apocalypse would have been spoken in Aramaic (albeit Gallilean and Judaean Aramaic and not any Syriac dialect), and there is a historical record of at least two Aramaic Gospels, the Gospel of the Hebrews, quotations of which are still extant, and which may have been originally written by St. Matthew, and a heterodox Gospel of the Ebionites, with the early church Fathers generally looking favorably on the former and unfavorably on the latter, we can positively exclude Peshitta Primacy, for the reasons given above.

I also wish to assure you that all information I provide is accurate to the best of my knowledge; I do make mistakes, usually due to conflating certain historical details, and the posts I write on CF.com are not proofread or checked to an academic style; instead I rely on the assistance of other learned users to point out mistakes so I can correct them.

In closing, given that we are diverging from the topic at hand, I respectfully request that as a courtesy to my friend @Carl Emerson you post a thread in Christian Scriptures if you wish to debate this further, and you may @ tag me or reply to this post in the new thread and I will reply.

God bless you.
 
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