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To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

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Moral Orel

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To be fair, it's based on the information he's assuming about their biology, so it does have something to do with it
Nope, not even that. The cause and impetus for his choice of pronoun usage is how people present themselves. A thing is based on it's cause; not some secondary assumption that might not even enter his mind.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Nope, not even that. The cause and impetus for his choice of pronoun usage is how people present themselves. A thing is based on it's cause; not some secondary assumption that might not even enter his mind.

Oh, well, that's different, then.
 
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Ken-1122

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You can't "apprehend clearly" things that are false,
Yes you can; especially when opinions are involved. And it also says to understand as true
That's how you use the words "he" and "she", so yeah, it does. Your use of "he" and "she" is based on how people present themselves,
I will assume based on how they present themselves. My assumptions do not make them a he or a she.
Again, it is not based on their biology
I said my ASSUMPTION of their biology. How is what you do different? If you are gonna talk about somebody, do you first go to that person and ask their gender expression before you talk about them? Suppose the person is not around? Do you refrain from talking about the person until you can get this information from them? How is what you do different than what I do?
 
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Kylie

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Which is why I use pronouns associated with biology instead of gender when speaking of someone.

Except for the fact that the pronouns a person uses are not a reflection of their biology, but of their gender identity.
 
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Moral Orel

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Yes you can; especially when opinions are involved
No, you really can't. If you're wrong, then it wasn't clear now was it? Opinions aren't knowledge either. Assumptions aren't knowledge either. The irony of you redefining basic words in an argument on this topic is not lost on me.
How is what you do different?
It isn't and that's the point! We both treat these characteristics as the defining features of what a "he" or "she" is. We both refuse to investigate actual scientific facts about a person's sex. Because we both use "he" and "she" to refer to these socially defined traits and not biological facts that are unknown to us.

You're going to do things exactly the same way I do, using the exact same information, and making the exact same judgements. Actual biological facts never once enter the picture because they aren't important when we refer to people as "he" or "she". Biological sex is not important to pronoun usage and you agree, that's why you put zero effort into investigating actual scientific facts just like I do. You're pretending as though you use words differently, but you don't.
 
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Ken-1122

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No, you really can't. If you're wrong, then it wasn't clear now was it?
I disagree. I can have all the information I think I need concerning sports teams I am betting on, and still be wrong.
BTW the definition also says to understand as true.
It isn't and that's the point! We both treat these characteristics as the defining features of what a "he" or "she" is. We both refuse to investigate actual scientific facts about a person's sex. Because we both use "he" and "she" to refer to these socially defined traits and not biological facts that are unknown to us.

You're going to do things exactly the same way I do, using the exact same information, and making the exact same judgements. Actual biological facts never once enter the picture because they aren't important when we refer to people as "he" or "she". Biological sex is not important to pronoun usage and you agree, that's why you put zero effort into investigating actual scientific facts just like I do. You're pretending as though you use words differently, but you don't.
I never said I investigate biological facts, I said I use pronouns based on what I assume their biology to be instead of an assumption of what their gender is. Most people in this conversation use it according to what they believe their gender is; that is what makes what I do different.
 
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Kylie

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No, it can be either. As I said before, I refer to my female dog as she. This applies to all mammals.

No, you are just making an assumption about her gender identity based on the shape of her genitals and concluding you are correct because, really, if you were wrong, how would you know?
 
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Moral Orel

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I can have all the information I think I need concerning sports teams I am betting on, and still be wrong.
Of course! Because you don't know who's going to win!
I never said I investigate biological facts
I know you don't. I said you don't. Biological facts aren't important to you when deciding what pronouns to use. Me neither.
Most people in this conversation use it according to what they believe their gender is; that is what makes what I do different.
No, most people use "he" and "she" based on how that person presents themselves, just like you and I do. What you do is no different from that. Most people don't care about biological facts when determining pronoun usage, just like you and I don't care. You aren't different.

The only difference is that your plan to intentionally use pronouns that offend people if you happen upon the knowledge that you never cared about before it was a trans person. You've made up a phony excuse to go out of your way to be rude, when just acting how you already act all the time is the polite way to be.

You could work with a trans woman for years, saying "she" and "her" in reference to her and not caring because you're unaware that she's trans. One day you find out she was born a biological male, and now you're going to start saying "he" and "him" around her because all of a sudden biology is important. You "want to avoid confusion" but everybody else in the office thinks of her as a "her" and "she". It's a phony-bologna excuse to be rude and preach your personal views on gender.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It has less to do with gender and mostly to do with authority... if they get to define themselves, then the powers-that-be lose that power...

And if the authorities were to lose authority, all the bootlicking would have been for nothing.

It's just a power struggle then....thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No, you really can't. If you're wrong, then it wasn't clear now was it? Opinions aren't knowledge either. Assumptions aren't knowledge either. The irony of you redefining basic words in an argument on this topic is not lost on me.

It isn't and that's the point! We both treat these characteristics as the defining features of what a "he" or "she" is. We both refuse to investigate actual scientific facts about a person's sex. Because we both use "he" and "she" to refer to these socially defined traits and not biological facts that are unknown to us.

You're going to do things exactly the same way I do, using the exact same information, and making the exact same judgements. Actual biological facts never once enter the picture because they aren't important when we refer to people as "he" or "she". Biological sex is not important to pronoun usage and you agree, that's why you put zero effort into investigating actual scientific facts just like I do. You're pretending as though you use words differently, but you don't.

If you were dating a person who convincingly appeared as a woman to you....and upon your first night of intimacy, you find out "she" actually has a penis....

Does biology suddenly matter? Or are you still convinced of womanhood?
 
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Moral Orel

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If you were dating a person who convincingly appeared as a woman to you....and upon your first night of intimacy, you find out "she" actually has a penis....

Does biology suddenly matter? Or are you still convinced of womanhood?
Does biology always matter in every situation and context? My claim is that sometimes it don't, so if you're picking a fight, that's the side (it always does) that you're taking.
 
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FireDragon76

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I see no difference between appearance and essence, because I don't believe in essentialism as metaphysics. Transwomen don't have to be identical to women assigned female at birth, for me to take their gender identity seriously.
 
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TLK Valentine

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It's just a power struggle then....thanks for clearing that up.

I thought that was obvious from the get-go... The people who tell you who you are are the ones who control you.
 
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Ken-1122

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No, you are just making an assumption about her gender identity based on the shape of her genitals and concluding you are correct because, really, if you were wrong, how would you know?
Actually I make assumptions about her based on biological facts! It is a fact that when it comes to mammals (humans included) only females give birth, male dogs or male humans do not.
 
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Ken-1122

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Of course! Because you don't know who's going to win!
Again’ it can be clear, and I could still be wrong.
I know you don't. I said you don't. Biological facts aren't important to you when deciding what pronouns to use.
For me they are
No, most people use "he" and "she" based on how that person presents themselves, just like you and I do. What you do is no different from that. Most people don't care about biological facts when determining pronoun usage, just like you and I don't care. You aren't different.
Most people perceive biology and gender as the same, there are only people like you who don’t. It is only recent that people like you go around claiming gender has nothing to do with biological sex, and claiming men can get pregnant. I’m not like you, I see biology and gender to be the same but when I run into a person like you, I tell them I am addressing their biology, not their gender if accused of misgendering them.
The only difference is that your plan to intentionally use pronouns that offend people if you happen upon the knowledge that you never cared about before it was a trans person. You've made up a phony excuse to go out of your way to be rude, when just acting how you already act all the time is the polite way to be.
How am I being rude to, or even offending someone I’m not even talking to?
 
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Moral Orel

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Again’ it can be clear, and I could still be wrong.
The outcome of future events is never "clear". You aren't psychic. Repeating false assertions doesn't make them true. Knowing the stats and conditions of all the players prior to a game does not make future events "clear" to you.
For me they are
No, they aren't. If they were, you would investigate them. You put zero effort into knowing those biological facts, so claiming they're important now is a lie. Repeating false assertions doesn't make them true.
It is only recent that people like you go around claiming gender has nothing to do with biological sex, and claiming men can get pregnant.
That's a lie. I have made no such claim. If you can't make an argument without fabricating things whole-cloth, then you're in trouble buddy.
I’m not like you, I see biology and gender to be the same but when I run into a person like you, I tell them I am addressing their biology, not their gender if accused of misgendering them.
You can't address things that are unknown to you. That's what's so phony about your whole thing. Repeating false assertions doesn't make them true.
How am I being rude to, or even offending someone I’m not even talking to?
Another phony-bologna excuse. If I write a post to Kylie telling her "That Ken sure is dumb" I'm not even talking to you, so it can't be rude, huh?
 
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Ken-1122

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The outcome of future events is never "clear". You aren't psychic.
The outcome does not have to be clear, just the information I believe necessary to meet my subjective standard of being absolutely certain.
No, they aren't. If they were, you would investigate them. You put zero effort into knowing those biological facts, so claiming they're important now is a lie.
Do you do a complete investigations on everything that is important to you? I don't.
That's a lie. I have made no such claim. If you can't make an argument without fabricating things whole-cloth, then you're in trouble buddy.
Oh! Perhaps I've misunderstood you; so..... you don't believe trans men can get pregnant? If not, what's stopping them?
You can't address things that are unknown to you.
Again; to know means to be absolutely certain.
Another phony-bologna excuse. If I write a post to Kylie telling her "That Ken sure is dumb" I'm not even talking to you, so it can't be rude, huh?
It might be rude, but I won’t be offended unless I read her post.
 
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didactics

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The outcome of future events is never "clear". You aren't psychic. Repeating false assertions doesn't make them true. Knowing the stats and conditions of all the players prior to a game does not make future events "clear" to you.

No, they aren't. If they were, you would investigate them. You put zero effort into knowing those biological facts, so claiming they're important now is a lie. Repeating false assertions doesn't make them true.

That's a lie. I have made no such claim. If you can't make an argument without fabricating things whole-cloth, then you're in trouble buddy.

You can't address things that are unknown to you. That's what's so phony about your whole thing. Repeating false assertions doesn't make them true.

Another phony-bologna excuse. If I write a post to Kylie telling her "That Ken sure is dumb" I'm not even talking to you, so it can't be rude, huh?
I think you're just upset because Ken rejects the use of preferred pronouns (trans ideology) and instead uses pronouns in the traditional sense. That doesn't mean he goes around intentionally trying to offend trans people. I mean seriously how long do you need to be around a trans person before you realize they're trans? A principle we could all learn from this is don't get easily offended. Pick your battles.
 
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