Original sin

[Tellyontellyon]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...


Questions...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

*What is the scriptural basis?

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

Thank you

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...


Questions...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

*What is the scriptural basis?

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

Thank you

You will get somewhat different answers depending on denomination. I belong to no denomination so here are mine.
Is original sin a core Christian idea?
It is based on a skewed Hebraic perspective. The term " original" was realized through Augustine then developed into a doctrine. I say skewed because it is highly debated between Calvinists and Arminians. The Torah says nothing about the transmission of hereditary sin to the entire human race.
*What is the scriptural basis?
There is none.
*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?
No, the unborn and the newly born are not automatically sinful. The sinful nature yes to a degree however, we are given a choice to do right or wrong. Unfortunately the flesh is weak and sinful.
*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?
Sin
*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?
Sin

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...


Questions...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

*What is the scriptural basis?

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

Thank you

I'm pretty sure I addressed this a long time ago in one of your threads. Original Sin is an extremely popular idea, that is part of the Western tradition coming from saint Augustine. Various Eastern Christians like myself don't subscribe to it and that probably is true for a few modern Evangelicals who have come to question some of the assumptions of the Western tradition.
But anyway here is an article on Ancestral sin taken from an Eastern Orthodox web site that I find very informative.

Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

 

[Daniel9v9]

Our church body hold to it, and easily explained: We are sinners because we sin (actual sin), and we sin because we are sinners (original sin). It goes both ways. Original sin is the fountainhead of all sin. While most of God's Word talks in terms of what we can think of as actual sin, here are a few passages that deal with what we can think of as original sin (or hereditary sin, or the natural depravity of man):

Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Romans 5:18: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

Genesis 8:21: "And when the Lord smelt the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done."

Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

John 3:6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

*What is the scriptural basis?

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

It is shown in scripture that our nature is one that moves toward sin when left to itself.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."​

As for the idea of original sin, it has various meanings for various people. Some talk of a thing called "Totally Depravity". Total Depravity is a thought that no one "Wants God", or can not "respond to God's message", so God pulls some out of that state to save. This then introduces a thing called Predestination, some think God knows all people before creation and selects a few of them to save. Like God writing a story, it denies true free will. Others like myself believe in the free will of man, or the idea that, although man is in a state of sin, God opens their eyes to Himself, and asks them to turn from sin, the response of the person determines their outcome.

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

Freewill is also supported by the early church fathers.

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.​

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.​

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38​

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)​

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

God gives each person light, or knowledge of Himself. He then asks that we turn from sin to God. Our response determines where we end up.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.​

Rom 2:4-11 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.​

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

Both.

Gal 5:13-14 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.​

 

[TedT]

No, the unborn and the newly born are not automatically sinful. The sinful nature yes to a degree however, we are given a choice to do right or wrong. Unfortunately the flesh is weak and sinful.

These phrases contradict each other: no they are not sinful, yet they have a sinful nature to a degree.

They are sinners to the degree that they are paid the wages for sin, that is, death, even while in the womb, proving a condemned sinfulness.

Would the GOD who cannot abide sin create evil people this way? NOPE, NEVER, PERIOD. The only sin that kills is the free will repudiation of YHWH's deity or rebellion to HIS command: Ezek 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child (mankind) will not share the guilt of the parent, (Adam) nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...


Questions...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

Yes and no. There are two traditional Christian views on this, one Western and one Eastern. Original Sin is Western, whereas in the East they speak instead of "Ancestral Sin". In one sense both views are getting at the same thing though through different kinds of language.

*What is the scriptural basis?

There are several key texts which are appealed to. Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", or Romans 5:12 that "sin came into the world by one man, and death through came through sin to all, for all sinned". We also have the Psalmist who says, "I was brought forth in iniquity, conceived in sin by my mother." (Psalms 51:5). The Prophet Jeremiah says, "The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately sick, who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

In the traditional Western understanding of Original Sin we inherit what is called concupiscence. It refers to the in-born disordering of our passions/desires. We aren't born already guilty of particular sins, rather we have within us the disorder of self-directed and selfish and other-harming desire; and out from that flows sinful thoughts, sinful words, and sinful actions. There are different ideas among Western Christians as to what that all means exactly. So you'll get different answers if you ask a Roman Catholic, a Lutheran, or Methodist, or a Presbyterian, etc.

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

That's an even bigger question that has even more diverse opinions. For example, one may argue that God doesn't punish at all; rather God's wrath and judgment is not about God being angry and punishing sinners but is instead about how man beholds the God of righteousness and holiness in his sinful condition. Akin to a guilty person being brought before a judge in a court and fully aware of their own guilt--they know they're guilty and they know the judge knows they are guilty.

This is, in a sense, how Lutherans view it. To speak of God in His wrath is to speak of seeing God hidden behind the veil of the Law as a sinner standing naked and exposed in the shamefulness of our sin. We behold God as angry because the stark and terrifying truth is that we are sinners--to the deepest core of ourselves we are sinners. We sin because we are sinners; we sin because we are, in our deepest selves, disjointed, disordered, and broken--disconnected and outside of communion with God. However, Lutherans insist that "to see God as angry, is not to see Him rightly"; when we see God hidden behind the veil of the Law we are not seeing God as He really is, His friendly and fatherly heart is unseen, like a dark storm cloud obscuring Him from view. Instead, we can only see God rightly through faith, as God comes and meets us in Jesus Christ. Here, in Christ, we have not the angry God thundering from the mountain top obscured by smoke and dark clouds. Rather, we have Christ who says, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father", we behold in the Only-begotten Son of the Father the Father's love, the Father's compassion, the very heart of the Father open and and revealed and loving us unconditionally.

Think of the story Jesus tells of the Prodigal Son. When the son has come and realized that he rejected his father's love, squandered his inheritance (note, by the son demanding his inheritance while the father was still alive was essentially telling his dad, "You are already dead to me"). Here in the mud and pig slop the son sees his condition and when he decides to return home he tells himself that he no longer can be a son, but perhaps could come back as a slave. Expecting his father to be angry, to punish him, and that he rightly deserves whatever he might get. But what happens instead? We read that when the father sees his estranged son coming in the distance he rushes out to embrace his son, he tells everyone to go fetch the finest clothes, to have him washed, and to prepare the largest celebratory feast, "for my son was dead, but now he's alive!".

In our sin we are like the prodigal, we see how deeply we have messed up, all that we squandered, spit upon God's kindness and love and we looking at this only see how we deserve nothing. But God isn't content to let that happen, He goes the extra mile, He goes above and beyond, He rushes headlong toward us with open arms to hold us and cover us and love us and welcome us and to throw a feast for us.

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

Yes. Christ's atoning work is full and entire, He is the Second Adam and New Man who has broken the chains that the first man enslaved himself with. He has broken the tyranny of death, hell, and the devil. He has satisfied all righteousness on our behalf. The courtroom of Calvary declares the verdict of righteous to sinners; and there is forgiveness for all. Not only are your individual sins forgiven because of Christ, but He bore you and your humanity and plunged it into death with Him and has brought it back to life by rising from the dead--the new Adam the new human. In Him we are, through faith, reconciled to God, restored to righteousness before and with God, and are being brought through this present life into the next toward resurrection and the renewal of everything.

Faith receives all of this, and it is most certainly true. For you, for me, for the whole world. For everyone.

Thank you

I hope it helps!

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Maria Billingsley]

These phrases contradict each other: no they are not sinful, yet they have a sinful nature to a degree.

They are sinners to the degree that they are paid the wages for sin, that is, death, even while in the womb, proving a condemned sinfulness.

Would the GOD who cannot abide sin create evil people this way? NOPE, NEVER, PERIOD. The only sin that kills is the free will repudiation of YHWH's deity or rebellion to HIS command: Ezek 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child (mankind) will not share the guilt of the parent, (Adam) nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

Respectfully ,that is not what I said.
I do not believe the unborn or children who are not at the appropriate age for discernment, are sinners.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Respectfully ,that is not what I said.
I do not believe the unborn or children who are not at the appropriate age for discernment, are sinners.
Thanks for sharing.

They suffer the consequences...mortality and death. They are conceived and born into a fallen world.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

They suffer the consequences...mortality and death. They are conceived and born into a fallen world.

And of the unborn who are taken before birth?

 

[Ligurian]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...


Questions...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

*What is the scriptural basis?

Depends...

Paul's gospel of grace to the gentiles seems to be teaching it.

Romans 5:12-17, 1 Timothy 2:12-15


But the Gospel of the Kingdom to the circumcision doesn't teach it.

 

[southwestforests]

And of the unborn who are taken before birth?

The unborn are made of physical material, genetic and body tissue, which is initially supplied from the bodies of parents who are affected by both the spiritual and physical effects of sin and who inhabit a world under a curse and whose bodies are made from the physical material of this world which is under a curse.

The unborn are made of stuff which is affected by mortality and death, that being the egg and sperm and genes from their parents & also by the nutrients from the foods their parents eat, and after fertilization the food their mother eats, those foods being plants and animals which were themselves affected by mortality and death.

The unborn are themselves made of mortality and death.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And of the unborn who are taken before birth?

Same...they are conceived into a fallen world and are mortal. Are you speaking of abortion?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Same...they are conceived into a fallen world and are mortal. Are you speaking of abortion?

They do not suffer the " second death" which is what I am referring to.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The unborn are made of physical material, genetic and body tissue, which is initially supplied from the bodies of parents who are affected by both the spiritual and physical effects of sin and who inhabit a world under a curse and whose bodies are made from the physical material of this world which is under a curse.

The unborn are made of stuff which is affected by mortality and death, that being the egg and sperm and genes from their parents & also by the nutrients from the foods their parents eat, and after fertilization the food their mother eats, those foods being plants and animals which were themselves affected by mortality and death.

The unborn are themselves made of mortality and death.

I am speaking about the "second death".

 

[eleos1954]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...


Questions...

*Is original sin a core Christian idea?

*What is the scriptural basis?

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

Thank you

When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. We are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil.

Christ’s blood does not refer to His life but is a symbol of His substitutionary death, and as such it describes the functional aspect of that death. Christ’s shed blood is amazingly multifunctional. Christ’s blood obtains eternal Redemption, provides cleansing from sin, provides forgiveness, sanctification, and is the reason for the resurrection.

In Hebrews there is a powerful contrast: Christ’s blood is better than any other blood. In fact, no other blood can really provide forgiveness; Christ’s death is the only reason why sins are forgiven, before and after the Cross (Hebrews 9:15). The shedding of Christ’s blood, and its effects, are clear evidence that Christ’s death was substitionary, which means that He took the penalty that we deserve.

Proclivity is defined as an inclination or predisposition toward something. And, as Christians, we were born with a proclivity toward sin, in all its ranges through our fallen nature.

In our new-birth by faith, we are given the indwelling power of God, in order to overcome sin.

Proclivity in of itself is not a sin.

Sin is transgression of Gods law.

1 John 3:4

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

They do not suffer the " second death" which is what I am referring to.

Ah yes, OK.

 

[TedT]

When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son (human) will not bear the iniquity of his father, (Adam) and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son.

 

[Clare73]

I'm trying to get my head around this idea of original sin...
Questions...
*Is original sin a core Christian idea?
*What is the scriptural basis?

The NT teaches that we are born condemned because of the imputed guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18).

*Does it mean that we are already regarded by God as having committed sin even before we are born... or does it mean a proclivity for sin, a sinful nature?

It does not mean we have inherited sin (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:20) nor are regarded by God as having committed sin, rather it means that Adam's guilt is imputed to us by God (Romans 5:18).

*If God punishes us, is it for sin or for a proclivity for sin?

What we inherit is a fallen (disposed to sin) nature, which commits our own sin, for which sin we are punished, not for our proclivity.

*Does Jesus' sacrifice cover our sins, or our proclivity for sin?

For those who believe in Jesus, both the guilt of Adam imputed to them and the guilt of their own sin are paid for.
Proclivity does not merit punishment.

 

[TedT]

When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son (human) will not bear the iniquity of his father, (Adam) and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son.