Teach Them to Be Keeping ALL.

[HARK!]

Do the tithing laws in Deuteronomy 26 apply to you?

Who would I tithe to?

 

[HARK!]

If so, do you say these words?
13 “I have put away the holy things out of my house, and also have given them to the Levite, to the foreigner, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all your commandment which you have commanded me. I have not transgressed any of your commandments, neither have I forgotten them. 14 I have not eaten of it in my mourning, neither have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor given of it for the dead. I have listened to the Lord my God’s voice. I have done according to all that you have commanded me. 15 Look down from your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless your people Israel, and the ground which you have given us, as you swore to our fathers, a land flowing with milk and honey.”

I am in exile. YHWH has not called his people back into the land.

 

[HARK!]

Absolutely!

But we also want to allow that the scriptures may contain literary devices such as idioms. I believe Isaiah does this when writing about the Persians conquering Babylon:

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of the sky and its constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened in its going out, and the moon will not cause its light to shine.

We're not talking about Isaiah. We're talking about Yahshua.

This seems pretty straightforward to me.:

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[Leaf473]

So where is the scripture that says that this instruction was abolished?

There isn't one. But apparently it's very important to Luke and the Holy Spirit that a castrated man was baptized into the Lord's assembly.

So something has changed somewhere imo.

 

[Leaf473]

Interesting..

So when did this happen?:

"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages."

I must have missed that event.

When exactly was all accomplished?

No need to be snide or snarky.

I don't think the devil has been cast into the lake of fire yet.

Logically, "until all things are accomplished" cannot refer to every single prophecy being fulfilled, since some prophecies (e.g. he shall reign forever and ever) cannot be fulfilled until the end of forever, which has no end.

Realistically, the disciples who heard Jesus and Luke probably take the "all accomplished" to refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple... which of course brings about a change in how the law is practiced.

 

[Leaf473]

Who would I tithe to?

Exactly! I believe the law says that the tithe belongs to the Levites, so God has made it impossible to tithe starting 40 years (one generation) after the destruction of the temple and the genealogical records.
_____________

But even if a person doesn't know who to tithe to, there are still words required to be said.

 

[Leaf473]

I am in exile. YHWH has not called his people back into the land.

Does the law make special exceptions for people in exile? Honest question, I'm not aware that it does.

 

[Leaf473]

We're not talking about Isaiah. We're talking about Yahshua.

This seems pretty straightforward to me.:

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Jesus and his disciples were well aware of the writing of Isaiah, so we want to understand his words in light of that cultural context.

Just like if I say "the land of the free and the home of the brave" no one familiar with modern Western culture doubts that I'm talking about the USA (even though for many decades it was also a land of slavery).

 

[HARK!]

There isn't one. But apparently it's very important to Luke and the Holy Spirit that a castrated man was baptized into the Lord's assembly.

So something has changed somewhere imo.

Let's look at the verses that you are talking about, side by side, a see what you're talking about. I thought that I already asked you this once before.

 

[HARK!]

No need to be snide or snarky.

It's a sincere line of questioning; and it serves to demonstrate that all has not been accomplished. The onus would be on you to demonstrate otherwise. If you feel challenged by that line of questioning; it's no cause to make inflammatory statements.

I don't think the devil has been cast into the lake of fire yet.

You are correct.

Logically, "until all things are accomplished" cannot refer to every single prophecy being fulfilled, since some prophecies (e.g. he shall reign forever and ever) cannot be fulfilled until the end of forever, which has no end.

That's not logical. When we are all one with the father, we will all submit to his will in obedience to his instructions forever. Therefore his instructions will reign forever.

Realistically, the disciples who heard Jesus and Luke probably take the "all accomplished" to refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple... which of course brings about a change in how the law is practiced.

This isn't realistic. It's pure speculation. The destruction of the Temple didn't accomplish all; and the Temple practices will resume in the kingdom to come. This isn't the first time that the Temple practices have been paused. Despite previous pauses, the Torah was not abolished before Yahshua walked the earth. Again, YHWH commands us to follow his instructions that apply to us. In previous generations, when Israel was in exile; YHWH still called them to repentance. Repentance is the message at the foundation of Yahshua's ministry.

 

[HARK!]

Exactly! I believe the law says that the tithe belongs to the Levites, so God has made it impossible to tithe starting 40 years (one generation) after the destruction of the temple and the genealogical records.
_____________

But even if a person doesn't know who to tithe to, there are still words required to be said.

It's a conditional statement.

We must start here:

12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithe of thine increase in the third year, which is the year of tithing, then thou shalt give it unto the Levite

 

[HARK!]

Does the law make special exceptions for people in exile? Honest question, I'm not aware that it does.

When Israel was in Babylonian exile; they could not properly make sacrifices. Yah's message for atonement was repentance. Nineveh wasn't even part of Israel. Yah's message for atonement to them was repentance. The foundation of Yahshua's ministry was repentance. We see examples where atonement was made without sacrifice. We also see examples where sacrifices were made for atonement; but those sacrifices were rejected. Repentance remains the most effective means for atonement.

 

[HARK!]

Jesus and his disciples were well aware of the writing of Isaiah, so we want to understand his words in light of that cultural context.

Why would you suppose that Yahshua's disciples has a great understanding of the culture in the time of Isaiah?

What cultural context do you speak of?

 

[Leaf473]

Let's look at the verses that you are talking about, side by side, a see what you're talking about. I thought that I already asked you this once before.

Here you go, my man...

Deuteronomy 23:1 No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off may enter the assembly of the LORD.

Acts 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

 

[Leaf473]

It's a sincere line of questioning; and it serves to demonstrate that all has not been accomplished. The onus would be on you to demonstrate otherwise. If you feel challenged by that line of questioning; it's no cause to make inflammatory statements.

I agree that it's a sincere line of questioning.

However, statements such as:

So when did this happen?

and

I must have missed that event.

sound snide/snarky to me when it's fairly obvious that the particular event you were referring to hasn't happened yet.

 

[Leaf473]

That's not logical. When we are all one with the father, we will all submit to his will in obedience to his instructions forever. Therefore his instructions will reign forever.

I believe it is logical. If his instructions will reign forever, the accomplishing of his instructions forever cannot be accomplished until the end of forever.

 

[Leaf473]

This isn't realistic. It's pure speculation. The destruction of the Temple didn't accomplish all; and the Temple practices will resume in the kingdom to come. This isn't the first time that the Temple practices have been paused. Despite previous pauses, the Torah was not abolished before Yahshua walked the earth. Again, YHWH commands us to follow his instructions that apply to us. In previous generations, when Israel was in exile; YHWH still called them to repentance. Repentance is the message at the foundation of Yahshua's ministry.

I believe it is realistic when the context of the passage is taken into account.

The passage begins with the disciples remarking about the beautiful stones of the Temple. I agree that he also talks about other things which happen happened yet.

But we also want to keep in mind that the All things being accomplished refers to this generation not passing away, not heaven and earth passing away.

Also, I'm not saying
(at least I think I'm not)
that all things have been accomplished, and thus Torah has ended. I am saying that to the question of Is Torah eternal or does it only last until Heaven and Earth pass away, it does look like there will be a time when Heaven and Earth have passed away. At least the first ones.

Although I'm sure they were frequent pauses in tent / Temple activities, I'm only aware of two times when those things were actually destroyed. The first was clearly prophesied: the beginning of the Babylonian exile. The Levites were still clearly visible during the exile, and the time of the exile was also prophesied.

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD was prophesied by Jesus, but not by any of the Old Testament prophets that I'm aware of. (Indeed, the sense that one gets from reading the Old Testament prophecies is that there will be a return from Babylon and Assyria and then things will start going great and that will be the end of any Temple destroyings. So we can understand why the disciples were so flabbergasted about the Not one stone left on top of another idea.)

But this second destruction of unknown length has been way, way longer than the first. And it has included the disappearance of the Levites, who are a key component in keeping the law imo.

 

[Leaf473]

It's a conditional statement.

We must start here:

12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithe of thine increase in the third year, which is the year of tithing, then thou shalt give it unto the Levite

I agree that verse 12 contains a condition. But it's not clear to me that verse 13 falls under that same condition.

Now... this brings up a very interesting situation imo. What do we do when we have a question about the meaning of a passage in the law? I assumed for decades that the right approach was for each person to take a copy of the Bible and decide for themselves what the right meaning was.

But the scriptural approach is for the Levites to give the meaning. If we have a question about how to apply Torah today, what the meaning is, we would consult the Levites. This is why I think the Levites form a critical piece of law keeping.

 

[Leaf473]

When Israel was in Babylonian exile; they could not properly make sacrifices. Yah's message for atonement was repentance. Nineveh wasn't even part of Israel. Yah's message for atonement to them was repentance. The foundation of Yahshua's ministry was repentance. We see examples where atonement was made without sacrifice. We also see examples where sacrifices were made for atonement; but those sacrifices were rejected. Repentance remains the most effective means for atonement.

Has repentance replaced sacrifice, then? Again, honest question. How do you see it?

 

[Leaf473]

Why would you suppose that Yahshua's disciples has a great understanding of the culture in the time of Isaiah?

What cultural context do you speak of?

The writing of Isaiah was part of the culture of Jesus and his disciples. Thus Jesus can quote Isaiah and people understand what he's referring to.

Part of the cultural context of that time was apocalyptic literature. Things like the book of Enoch. Apocalyptic literature tends to use, well, apocalyptic language, for lack of a better term... Things like The stars will fall from the sky and the very pillars of the Earth will be shaken. (I'm not thinking of any particular passage there, I'm just using apocalyptic language.)

Great discussion, btw.