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Is division and denomination bad?

DragonFox91

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==I don't think any denomination gets everything right.
==I think each denomination is weak & strong in different areas.
==I think most differences are minor & not worth fighting over.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The idea that when all the world sees we are of one mind and thus one denomination, that the whole will join us, I see it as an error.

When the whole world sees a church full of hunger for God's Spirit uniting them in the dream, then they will come in or reject us. And according to predestiny.

We may get them all in successive waves of evangelism. Scripture fulfilled then Christ returns!

Denominations are like different sorts of cars, suiting different conscience types, compassion types and missionary types.

Ps Bonnke got into the Anglican college and Pentecostal faith, and made good use of it, with 83 million salvations counted so far on CFAN with videos of mission trips.

For others the Catholic faith is great for the history and perhaps hands on counseling founded on the Catholic Catechism. Others still may prefer Wesley or Salvation Army. And some benefit from a focus on healing in Global Awakening and others CTF with the love of God filling them.

Some try church and feel guilt and same controlling them from the pulpit. Another church may focus on reverence while another on love, and yet another on wisdom, some apologetics...

Variety is good, but infighting is not. Critics of phenomena and prosperity... may risk losing our free speech for a fix of vented anger, it is not right.
 
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The Liturgist

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Depends.

We have thousands of denominations today, but they get along just fine or even support each other.

Still much better situation than few hundred years ago, when there was just 3 and killing and hating each other.

Actually a few hundred years ago, during the Wars of Religion in Western Europe, which I assume you were referring to, there were closer to ten denominations in Western Europe and additionally there were the Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East, and none of these churches participated in the Wars of Religion. Nor, technically, did most of the Protestant denominations, except to the extent of being persecuted (such as the Moravians, Waldensians and Anabaptists).
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't see it that way. There are very valid arguments that need to be hashed out in every direction including some Catholic beliefs and how the faithful observe them. Look at the Anglicans who converted to Catholicism, they still maintain alot of their traditions:

Pope makes it easier for Anglicans to convert

So its possible to have the other denominations do the same after each understands one another's doctrines and agree in the major areas. Of course the more different a denomination is from the Catholic faith, the harder it will be to reconcile the differences. The goal is to continue trying to resolve the differences, continue to pray for unification and continue to listen with an open heart. God bless.

Indeed. Which Byzantine Catholic Church are you a member of, if I might ask?
 
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Davy

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we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

That is why... study in ALL of God's written Word is so important, because, early on in Bible history certain ones of the devil's servants start creeping in among God's people trying to prevent the people from heeding The LORD and His Word. It began with Cain's offspring, then the Canaanites. When Jesus arrived at His first coming, He even revealed this point to His Apostles in Matthew 13 about the "tares". Jude 1 also revealed it about certain men that were 'ordained' to that condemnation of working against Christ. And if they were 'ordained' to do that, then it means it was according to God's Plan for this present world.

In Luke 4, one of the temptations the devil tried on Lord Jesus was to take Him up and show Jesus all the kingdoms of this world, and offer them to Jesus IF... He would follow the devil. And the devil said they were given to him, and he could give them to whom he wanted. That points to the fact that God has ordained the devil control over the majority of this present world, and that also has to be according to God's Plan for this present world. In the prophets like Isaiah 10, God using the title of "the Assyrian" as a symbolic name for Satan, God shows us He 'uses' the devil to punish those in rebellion today. So it's not like the devil can just do whatever he wants.

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul showed that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to refuse to let the children of Israel free. God did that to show His Power and Glory so that God's Name would be declared throughout the earth. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter, is what that shows. So like Paul said, God has prepared beforehand some vessels unto glory, and others as vessels fitted to destruction.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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In Romans 9, Apostle Paul showed that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to refuse to let the children of Israel free. God did that to show His Power and Glory so that God's Name would be declared throughout the earth. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter, is what that shows. So like Paul said, God has prepared beforehand some vessels unto glory, and others as vessels fitted to destruction.
Looking into Pharaoh, a bit a a digression, as a boy he knew Hebrews, but did not agree with them, growing up he learned to follow Egyptian gods. He look down on Hebrews and this is his background to rejecting God's grace, and keeping a hard heart. He had a choice to soften his heart to grace, but had already made up his mind, and when grace came upon him with Moses, it either softens or hardens the heart, depending on one's choice at the time.

My heart has both been softened and hardened by grace at different times. In confusion due to noise, I once hardened my heart.
 
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Davy

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Looking into Pharaoh, a bit a a digression, as a boy he knew Hebrews, but did not agree with them, growing up he learned to follow Egyptian gods. He look down on Hebrews and this is his background to rejecting God's grace, and keeping a hard heart. He had a choice to soften his heart to grace, but had already made up his mind, and when grace came upon him with Moses, it either softens or hardens the heart, depending on one's choice at the time.

My heart has both been softened and hardened by grace at different times. In confusion due to noise, I once hardened my heart.

I disagree with that reasoning, which the reason why is... that if one can actually blame Pharoah's own heart independent of God's Hand, then it completely SCRAPS what Apostle Paul said about God hardening Pharaoh's heart in order to show His Power...

Rom 9:17-22
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.


18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, 'Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?'

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, 'Why hast Thou made me thus?'

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

KJV


I know there's a lot of preachers out there in the pulpits that like to try and put their own selves into the psychology of why men in The Bible did certain things, but if that goes against the written Scripture, those ideas and that way of thinking is not to be used.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I disagree with that reasoning, which the reason why is... that if one can actually blame Pharoah's own heart independent of God's Hand, then it completely SCRAPS what Apostle Paul said about God hardening Pharaoh's heart in order to show His Power...

Rom 9:17-22
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.


18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, 'Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?'

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, 'Why hast Thou made me thus?'

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

KJV


I know there's a lot of preachers out there in the pulpits that like to try and put their own selves into the psychology of why men in The Bible did certain things, but if that goes against the written Scripture, those ideas and that way of thinking is not to be used.
Romans 9 begins with Romans 8 and this thought:
28And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. NKJV.

Key word, "foreknew". God foreknew Pharaoh. The scripture begins with this, and later, does not contradict. It builds on the concept of foreknowledge.

God will not condemn someone against their will, true? He always wanted the repentance of all men, for He so loves the world. No exceptions.

God foreknew Pharaoh would harden his heart to grace. He did not sovereignly condemn and lose a man. It does not say God gradually hardened his heart from his childhood deliberately.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Indeed. Which Byzantine Catholic Church are you a member of, if I might ask?

I don't know what happened but I just lost everything that was suppose to be a response to your question. So to make a long story short (so I don't lose it again), we go to a Roman Catholic Church that is close to our house, St Frances Xavier Cabrini. We can never get anywhere on time so the closer the better. Our closest Byzantine Catholic Church is St Anne and it is about 40 mins away. I have been to it only a handful of times. There is a Ukrainian Catholic Church about 10 mins away but I haven't been there yet. God bless. (don't want to go too far off topic, possibly that's the reason my first draft got erased?)
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't know what happened but I just lost everything that was suppose to be a response to your question. So to make a long story short (so I don't lose it again), we go to a Roman Catholic Church that is close to our house, St Frances Xavier Cabrini. We can never get anywhere on time so the closer the better. Our closest Byzantine Catholic Church is St Anne and it is about 40 mins away. I have been to it only a handful of times. There is a Ukrainian Catholic Church about 10 mins away but I haven't been there yet. God bless. (don't want to go too far off topic, possibly that's the reason my first draft got erased?)

It was likely a glitch in your browser - XenForo, the software this site runs on, uses some sophisticated JavaScript, so you might want to check to see if you are running the most recent version.

I was just curious if you were ethnically Ruthenian, or Melkite, or Ukrainian, or Italo-Albanian, or one of the other ethnic groups in the Byzantine Catholic community, or if you were a convert.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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It was likely a glitch in your browser - XenForo, the software this site runs on, uses some sophisticated JavaScript, so you might want to check to see if you are running the most recent version.

I was just curious if you were ethnically Ruthenian, or Melkite, or Ukrainian, or Italo-Albanian, or one of the other ethnic groups in the Byzantine Catholic community, or if you were a convert.

We are considered the Eastern European hillbillies (as my mother use to say), Carpatho Rusyn, I believe the term is for our people. Our family is from Circ, Slovakia. Thanks for the tip on checking my version of Java. I usually never have problems posting here. God bless.
 
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The Liturgist

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We are considered the Eastern European hillbillies (as my mother use to say), Carpatho Rusyn, I believe the term is for our people. Our family is from Circ, Slovakia. Thanks for the tip on checking my version of Java. I usually never have problems posting here. God bless.

I love the Carpatho Rusyn people. You know Andy Warhol, the famous artist, was a Ruthenian Greek Catholic and a member of the Lemko ethnic group, which, correct me if I’m wrong, is closely related to the Carpatho-Rusyns.

The most interesting aspect of Carpatho-Rusyn Christianity is the Prostopinije style of music. This has had a huge impact on Eastern Orthodoxy in the United States because a large number of Ruthenian Greek Catholics in Pennsylvania joined the Russian Orthodox Church, and these parishes wound up in ROCOR and the OCA, as well as the MP Patriarchal parishes, and a separate group in the 1920s joined the Greek Orthodox Church, forming the American Carpatho Rusyn Orthodox Diocese.
 
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J3thekingofking

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That is why... study in ALL of God's written Word is so important, because, early on in Bible history certain ones of the devil's servants start creeping in among God's people trying to prevent the people from heeding The LORD and His Word. It began with Cain's offspring, then the Canaanites. When Jesus arrived at His first coming, He even revealed this point to His Apostles in Matthew 13 about the "tares". Jude 1 also revealed it about certain men that were 'ordained' to that condemnation of working against Christ. And if they were 'ordained' to do that, then it means it was according to God's Plan for this present world.

In Luke 4, one of the temptations the devil tried on Lord Jesus was to take Him up and show Jesus all the kingdoms of this world, and offer them to Jesus IF... He would follow the devil. And the devil said they were given to him, and he could give them to whom he wanted. That points to the fact that God has ordained the devil control over the majority of this present world, and that also has to be according to God's Plan for this present world. In the prophets like Isaiah 10, God using the title of "the Assyrian" as a symbolic name for Satan, God shows us He 'uses' the devil to punish those in rebellion today. So it's not like the devil can just do whatever he wants.

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul showed that God hardened Pharaoh's heart to refuse to let the children of Israel free. God did that to show His Power and Glory so that God's Name would be declared throughout the earth. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter, is what that shows. So like Paul said, God has prepared beforehand some vessels unto glory, and others as vessels fitted to destruction.
too Calvinistic reply
 
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Davy

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too Calvinistic reply

I'm not a Calvinist, so your attempt to taint my credibility certainly does not work with Calvinist associations. What I said was Bible 101, and even quoted Scripture to support it. The problem with many's lack of understanding about it is because that part of God's Word is seldom taught anymore in most Churches.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm not a Calvinist, so your attempt to taint my credibility certainly does not work with Calvinist associations.

Forgive me, but I agreed with the post in question because the doctrine you advocate aligns with the most well-known Reformed or Calvinist doctrine, that being predestination to either salvation or damnation. This is a distinctly Reformed, Monergist doctrine heavily associated with Calvin and his followers. It represents the main point of departure between Calvinism and what is usually called Arminianism. Arminianism is something of a misnome however, and strictly speaking so is Calvinism, but these have become labels of convenience for what could be most accurately non-Pelagian Synergism, and non-Pelagian, non-Universalist Monergism.

This is simply because Calvin did not stress this doctrine as much as some of his successors, and the reaction of Arminius to Calvinism was the same as the reaction of the Eastern Orthodox to it at the Synod of Bethlehem convened by Patriarch Dositheus of 1672 regarding the apparent Calvinist confession of the Ecumemical Patriarch of Constantinople Cyril Lucaris several decades previously, and attended by representatives of other Orthodox churches (even including the Russian church), and the retired Patriarch Nectarius of Jerusalem, known for successfully discouraging union with the Roman Catholic Church then being promoted in Asia Minor by Franciscans, among others. And the relative importance of the doctrine to Reformed theology is in some respects overstated; likewise rejection of it was not the entire program of Arminius, still less the program of John Wesley, and neither Calvin nor Arminius originated these soteriological concepts.

What I said was Bible 101, and even quoted Scripture to support it.

Again, forgive me, but this is not really the case. While it is true that what is commonly called Calvinism can be derived from scripture, it is also true that Arminianism can be derived from scripture. My analysis of the matter suggests that neither position can be proven or disproven from Scripture, since it comes down to a difference in hermeneutics and interpretation.

Simply quoting scripture in support of a doctrine is not enough to prove it; one must rather engage in exegesis which takes into account the entirety of scriptures, and then there is the question of which exegetical technique to use and the extent to which certain verses are interpreted literally.

Now, specifically, you argue that what is commonly called Arminianism “scraps” Romans 9:17-22, but I can assure you this is not the case. An Arminian exegesis of Romans 9 is available, but it would not rest purely on this verse alone, because the “Arminian” and “Calvinist” positions both benefit from potential proof texts throughout scripture.

Also, as I recently argued in another thread, the impact of this doctrine is overstated, since Synergists acknowledge divine omniscience, which implies determinism, and Monergists and Synergists agree that the grace of the Holy Spirit enables faith.

The problem with many's lack of understanding about it is because that part of God's Word is seldom taught anymore in most Churches.

On this point we can agree, in the context of the US, because I feel the encroachment of various left-wing errors of theology, such as Liberation Theology, Womanist Theology, Queer Theology and so on, which I would argue do not deserve the title “Theology” since they represent a departure from knowledge of God, and also some other competing errors like the Prosperity Gospel, have resulted in a de-emphasis of the critical doctrine of the Incarnation of the Word.
 
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Mark Bates

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Most denominations say you should study the bible for yourself and seek the truth. The problem with this is, you need to study the bible and come up with the doctrine of the church you attend or you don't fit in.

What happens if you truly study the bible for yourself and end up with an understanding that aligns with most denominations but doesn't exactly align with any known denomination? Do you start your own denomination?
 
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Davy

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Forgive me, but I agreed with the post in question because the doctrine you advocate aligns with the most well-known Reformed or Calvinist doctrine, that being predestination to either salvation or damnation. This is a distinctly Reformed, Monergist doctrine heavily associated with Calvin and his followers. It represents the main point of departure between Calvinism and what is usually called Arminianism. Arminianism is something of a misnome however, and strictly speaking so is Calvinism, but these have become labels of convenience for what could be most accurately non-Pelagian Synergism, and non-Pelagian, non-Universalist Monergism.

This is simply because Calvin did not stress this doctrine as much as some of his successors, and the reaction of Arminius to Calvinism was the same as the reaction of the Eastern Orthodox to it at the Synod of Bethlehem convened by Patriarch Dositheus of 1672 regarding the apparent Calvinist confession of the Ecumemical Patriarch of Constantinople Cyril Lucaris several decades previously, and attended by representatives of other Orthodox churches (even including the Russian church), and the retired Patriarch Nectarius of Jerusalem, known for successfully discouraging union with the Roman Catholic Church then being promoted in Asia Minor by Franciscans, among others. And the relative importance of the doctrine to Reformed theology is in some respects overstated; likewise rejection of it was not the entire program of Arminius, still less the program of John Wesley, and neither Calvin nor Arminius originated these soteriological concepts.



Again, forgive me, but this is not really the case. While it is true that what is commonly called Calvinism can be derived from scripture, it is also true that Arminianism can be derived from scripture. My analysis of the matter suggests that neither position can be proven or disproven from Scripture, since it comes down to a difference in hermeneutics and interpretation.

Simply quoting scripture in support of a doctrine is not enough to prove it; one must rather engage in exegesis which takes into account the entirety of scriptures, and then there is the question of which exegetical technique to use and the extent to which certain verses are interpreted literally.

Now, specifically, you argue that what is commonly called Arminianism “scraps” Romans 9:17-22, but I can assure you this is not the case. An Arminian exegesis of Romans 9 is available, but it would not rest purely on this verse alone, because the “Arminian” and “Calvinist” positions both benefit from potential proof texts throughout scripture.

Also, as I recently argued in another thread, the impact of this doctrine is overstated, since Synergists acknowledge divine omniscience, which implies determinism, and Monergists and Synergists agree that the grace of the Holy Spirit enables faith.



On this point we can agree, in the context of the US, because I feel the encroachment of various left-wing errors of theology, such as Liberation Theology, Womanist Theology, Queer Theology and so on, which I would argue do not deserve the title “Theology” since they represent a departure from knowledge of God, and also some other competing errors like the Prosperity Gospel, have resulted in a de-emphasis of the critical doctrine of the Incarnation of the Word.

I'll not ask for forgiveness, because just because a Truth is written in God's Word, and a religious movement adopts that particular Truth as their own, it DOES NOT MEAN they were the AUTHORS OF IT. So that's what I think of vain attempts at Calvinist associations, or with any other religious movement associations from men's doctrines. We are to preach God's Word, not man's.
 
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The Liturgist

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Most denominations say you should study the bible for yourself and seek the truth. The problem with this is, you need to study the bible and come up with the doctrine of the church you attend or you don't fit in.

What happens if you truly study the bible for yourself and end up with an understanding that aligns with most denominations but doesn't exactly align with any known denomination? Do you start your own denomination?

Well therein is a problem with the Nuda Scriptura approach you outlined, which is why historically Christian denominations have used the idea of the catechumenate, teaching doctrine and scripture in an integrated way, and interpreting Scripture according to Apostolic Tradition following Reason. This is the basis for Orthodoxy, Catholicism and the historic Protestant churches (Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, Methodist, etc.)
 
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The Liturgist

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I'll not ask for forgiveness, because just because a Truth is written in God's Word, and a religious movement adopts that particular Truth as their own, it DOES NOT MEAN they were the AUTHORS OF IT. So that's what I think of vain attempts at Calvinist associations, or with any other religious movement associations from men's doctrines. We are to preach God's Word, not man's.

I certainly agree that we are to preach God’s Truth!
 
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Davy

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Most denominations say you should study the bible for yourself and seek the truth. The problem with this is, you need to study the bible and come up with the doctrine of the church you attend or you don't fit in.

What happens if you truly study the bible for yourself and end up with an understanding that aligns with most denominations but doesn't exactly align with any known denomination? Do you start your own denomination?

The reality is that God's Word full strength is not popular, and never has been.

Recall what Jesus showed His disciples regarding His warning to beware of the leaven of Herod and the Pharisees...

Mark 8:14-21
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.

15 And He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod."

16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "It is because we have no bread."

17 And when Jesus knew it, He saith unto them, "Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?" They say unto Him, "Twelve."

20 "And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?" And they said, "Seven."

21 And He said unto them, "How is it that ye do not understand?"
KJV



Full Loaf going out = God's Truth full strength, unaltered.

Fragments = men's doctrines breaking up the Full Loaf and presenting only pieces of God's Truth with men's doctrines added.

Example: Luke 4 when Satan tempted Jesus with adding "at any time" when quoting the Pslams 91:11-12 Scripture...

Luke 4:9-12
9 And he brought Him to Jerusalem, and set Him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto Him, "If Thou be the Son of God, cast Thyself down from hence:

10 For it is written, 'He shall give His angels charge over Thee, to keep Thee:

11 And in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest at any time Thou dash Thy foot against a stone.'

12 And Jesus answering said unto him, "It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
KJV


That part in red is what Satan added to his quote of Psalms 91:11-12, which changed... the meaning of that Scripture. It suggested that Jesus could tempt The Father at any time, and The Father would send angels to save Him. If that had been true, then Lord Jesus would never have been able to be crucified on the cross, and thus God's Salvation Plan through Christ's Blood shed upon His cross would have failed.

(Oh, and for many of you folks using a different Bible version, you might not have that "at any time" phrase in your Bible, because the super-duper higher critics on those newer Bible version committees didn't understand this, so they only thought it was a translation error from quoting the Psalms, so they removed it from their Bible translations! You can thank those like Wescott and Hort and the higher critics for that!)
 
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