Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[chevyontheriver]

That make me feel pretty safe, thanks!, because the chances of me ever saying 'non serviam' is pretty remote - I had to copy and paste it because I couldn't remember it even for a couple of seconds!

Just to try to give a universalist response to the free will question you raise, I think the idea is that if we haven't responded positively to God in this life, He won't just give up on us but He'll remain the Good Shepherd and continue to recover us in the next. If we're created in the image of God, however bad we are in this life, we can only tarnish and occlude the image, not destroy it completely, so God will always be able to work on us, or woo us perhaps more accurately, and remove all the delusions we have that are keeping us from Him, and once we see Him more clearly, we'll gladly embrace Him out of love. This is the purification of the Lake of Fire etc. Removing our delusions and pride will probably hurt like fire, just like removing a tooth does, but it's done out of love, as is hopefully the case with our dentist, and as we get to know God better this burning fire will gradually be experienced as warmth and light.

The presumption, of course, is that our death on earth is not the end of our relationship with God.

I'm not a universalist. For me the idea of forcing someone to be happy forever with God violates their free will. If I were a Calvinist maybe I could be OK with that, but as I am not a Calvinist I think it would be a form of hell itself to not want to be in heaven with God and neighbors but to be stuck there for all eternity.

 

[Hmm]

I'm not a universalist.

That's just a label anyway.

For me the idea of forcing someone to be happy forever with God violates their free will.

There's no question of forcing someone to be happy with God any more than if you adopted a traumatised child and showed them love you would be forcing them to respond with love. It would happen naturally and freely because it is in the child's nature to respond to love.

 

[Hmm]

At the end of the day the Bible really doesn't concern itself much with the subject of life after death.

Yes, I'm beginning to conclude that too.

life after life after death

Nice!

 

[chevyontheriver]

There's no question of forcing someone to be happy with God any more than if you adopted a traumatised child and showed them love you would be forcing them to respond with love. It would happen naturally and freely because it is in the child's nature to respond to love.

Maybe. It presumes a lot though about human nature. I think the gate may actually be narrow.

 

[Mark Quayle]

[QUOTE="Mark Quayle, post: 76764176, member: 410020"God gives us more specific knowledge than our 'concrete'-thinking minds want to acknowledge. At seeing it fulfilled, what seems to us now as perhaps a riddle of riddles, I believe, we will in Heaven figuratively 'smack our foreheads' in happy amazement, thinking, "It was right there in front of me, in plain language! I should have seen it!"

]Most things of Scripture are "spiritually discerned", by which I don't mean they are not plainly stated or clearly understandable, but that there are larger truths to them, hidden to us by our own blindness and ignorance (I don't say that to our shame (nor am I claiming it is not shameful), but as a simple fact), that we will not fully know until we get there, and see him as he is.

Thanks.
On that basis, how important is it for us to "get it right"? (since we won't really know until we get there)[/QUOTE]
It's not really an "either/or" thing, I don't think, as though either we get it or we don't. We get in part, but never the whole of it. It is incumbent on us, according to our various abilities and gifts, to look into such things. It's also incumbent on us to maintain a healthy disrespect of our ability to understand such things, or maybe to put it better, to have a sense of humor, not taking ourselves too seriously.

I am relatively certain, for example, that Revelation 21's account of the New Jerusalem is referring to the actual Bride of Christ, the Church, the Elect. I have many reasons to think so. But I am not sure. What I AM sure about is that if I am right, I don't know much about it, relatively, though the whole two last chapters of Revelation talk about little else. If I am right about the New Jerusalem, there is a whole lot more to it than I know.

Depending on the severity of one's self-confidence in his 'being right', it can be extremely important to be right about whatever one claims. Declaring from a position of authority something someone is wrong about is not dealt with kindly by Paul, Peter, John and Jude.

 

[Jonaitis]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

I want to know why heaven/hell are almost entirely absent in most of the Old Testament. They are mentioned briefly in the later prophets, around the time that the Jews were living in Persia (Zoroastrianism influence?). Now, this isn't to say they aren't real, but I am playing devil's advocate.

 

[Hmm]

It presumes a lot though about human nature.

Does it presume any more than saying that because we're made in the image of God, we're never going to be completely fulfilled until we have the proper relationship with God that we're meant for?

I think the gate may actually be narrow.

I think so too because the only way to God is through Christ. But, given enough time and there's an eternity of that in "hell", couldn't the Good Shepherd get all through somehow?

I recognise, as you do, that we have more questions than answers.

 

[Hmm]

I want to know why heaven/hell are almost entirely absent in most of the Old Testament. They are mentioned briefly in the later prophets, around the time that the Jews were living in Persia (Zoroastrianism influence?). Now, this isn't to say they aren't real, but I am playing devil's advocate.

It's a good question though. I've no idea btw!

 

[Jonaitis]

It's a good question though. I've no idea btw!

Well, this could be the reason why it is vague in the New Testament, perhaps? It seems the concept still needed to be developed further.

 

[Hmm]

Well, this could be the reason why it is vague in the New Testament, perhaps? It seems the concept still needed to be developed further.

That's quite a thought. Maybe! Like with the Trinity?

 

[Jonaitis]

That's quite a thought. Maybe! Like with the Trinity?

Interesting, but I've never actually got your take on that. I don't deny the Trinity.

 

[Hmm]

Interesting, but I've never actually got your take on that. I don't deny the Trinity.

Me neither. I'm conventional on that. Nothing as controversial as believing that God is going to be "all in all" as He promised.

 

[Jonaitis]

Me neither.

All three members are present throughout the Old Testament, so that was a bad comparison...

 

[Hmm]

All three members are present throughout the Old Testament, so that was a bad comparison...

The comparison is okay. The Trinity wasn't formalised until some time after the Bible was assembled. I forget the details but it was quite a few years after.

 

[Jonaitis]

The comparison is okay. The Trinity wasn't formalised until some time after the Bible was assembled. I forget the details but it was quite a few years after.

The Nicene fathers. However, it was still implied in the text. Heaven and Hell aren't implied at all in any of the books of Moses. You won't find it discussed, speculated or even mentioned in passing in any of the historical literature. You may be able to find some hints of it in the Wisdom literature. However, most references are from the latter prophets.

 

[Hmm]

Yes, the Nicene fathers. However, it was still implied in the text. Heaven and Hell aren't implied at all in any of the books of Moses. You won't find it discussed, speculated or even mentioned in passing in any of the historical literature. You may be able to find some hints of it in the Wisdom literature. However, most references are from the latter prophets.

All I'm saying is that the question of heaven and hell may be something that is yet to be properly thought out and defined, as was the case with the Trinity. I don't see how the comparative level of hints in scripture about the two issues is relevant but what do I know?

 

[Der Alte]

The Nicene fathers. However, it was still implied in the text. Heaven and Hell aren't implied at all in any of the books of Moses. You won't find it discussed, speculated or even mentioned in passing in any of the historical literature. You may be able to find some hints of it in the Wisdom literature. However, most references are from the latter prophets.

Maybe you are not looking in the right places.
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
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…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12 [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

 

[Jonaitis]

All I'm saying is that the question of heaven and hell may be something that is yet to be properly thought out and defined, as was the case with the Trinity. I don't see how the comparative level of hints in scripture about the two issues is relevant but what do I know?

And all I am saying is probably the reason it is fuzzy in detail is because it was introduced so late in the whole canon? I am a realist, and I see this as a possible answer.

 

[Hmm]

And all I am saying is probably the reason it is fuzzy in detail is because it was introduced so late in the whole canon? I am a realist, and I see this as a possible answer.

I'm agreeing with you and just saying it may be something that can only be settled by a new Nicene council. But what are the chances of that? I'm a realist too!

 

[BobRyan]

Okay, so do you have an answer to the questions raised in the OP that demonstrates this "systematic learning and paying attention to detail"

Indeed I do as a large percent of those 40,000 posts of mine on this forum demonstrate.

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

As stated above it is very clear in scripture just as the 7 day week Gen 1 are clearly real days with each having "evening and morning" and Ex 20:11 points this same inconvenient fact out "in legal code" pointing back to Gen 2:1-3... and yet... some Christians will deny that obvious detail no matter how obvious. The fault is not a question of "clarity" in scripture.

Your example in Mark 4 is not paying attention to details.

Both Mark 3 and 4 along with Matt 12 and 13 point to that same event which starts in Mark 3 (and in Matt 12) with Christ doing incredibly obvious and undeniable miracles right in front of their faces - and then the Jews blaspheming the Holy Spirit declaring that the power of Christ is the devil and not the power of God or the work of the Holy Spirit.

Christ's response was to SWITCH TO PARABLE mode - in Matt 13 and Mark 4 --- and when questioned - he says he is giving the Jews something they will not blaspheme - they will not find anything to object to "in the story" he tells. He is burying truth beneath a layer of story telling "parable" so he can get them moving down the road of truth without knowing enough about it to react once more in rebellion against the work of the Holy Spirit.

IF Christians were to jump in here and place themselves in the role of the rebellious Jews in Matt 12 and Mark 3 - that the Savior is "hiding" truth from so that they will not blaspheme - then they would be making a huge mistake.

Paying attention "to details" is way better than skimming over them.

I'm all ears...

So that is why we had this post

ok we see the term used to describe a place of torment and suffering which in Rev 20 is an event that happens on planet Earth after the 1000 years - according to scripture. Torment and suffering in what the Bible calls "a lake of fire" which apparently causes the world as we know it to "pass away" and is not merely the point where God "destroys both body and soul in hell" Matt 10:28