Is it okay to simply assume that God saves all?

[BPPLEE]

Me and others have given the universalist answer to this earlier in the thread.

Okay. Reading through it

 

[Hmm]

Okay. Reading through it

Okay.

I should really have said "possible answers" rather than "the answer". I'd be interested in your thoughts anyway.

 

[Clare73]

Well, when someone's first contribution to the discussion is to say that you believe in a lie,

What an "interesting" way to view disagreement. . .as referring to the person rather than referring to the argument.

it's difficult to be bothered to respond. But for you Clare...

Tsk, tsk, tsk. . .

The poster was being highly selective. If he is going to rely on the "the many" to say that not all will be saved, he must also say whether he believes that same phrase in verses such as this means that not everyone is sinful:

"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many." Romans 5:15

"The many" simply means people in the plural so I don't understand the point being made.

Doesn't Romans 5:18 make clear to which people "in the plural" he is referring?
It does. . .it refers to "all" people.

He may also like to consider verses where "all" is used instead such as this one:

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22‬ ‭

Yes. . .as all those born of (in) Adam die, so all those born of (in) Christ are made alive.

And we know these meanings from the teachings of the NT.

Seems to me the poster was simply giving the Biblical facts here, rather than accusing you
of "believing in a lie."

Interesting. . .

 

[Clare73]

First off I am just quoting scripture.
You are trying to make a huge distinction between being "God's offspring" and being "being a child of God".

As does the NT. . .but which you are trying to make include all mankind as children of God,
contrary to NT teaching.

 

[Hmm]

Doesn't Romans 5:18 make clear to which people "in the plural" he is referring?
It does. . .it refers to "all" people.

It looks like we are in agreement (although something tells me I must have misunderstood something)

Romans 5:18 "Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."

"All" means "all" in both cases - just as all are condemned in Adam, so are all justified in Christ.

Yes. . .all those born of (in) Adam die, so all those born of (in) Christ are made alive.

But that's not what the verse says.

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22‬ ‭

It doesn't say "all those in Christ will be made alive". It says "all will be made alive in Christ". Who are these "all"? They are the same "all" as in the first clause, the people who died in Adam, i.e. everyone. How are they made alive? In Christ.

 

[bling]

Much as I hate to disagree with you, I can't agree with your categorical "No!". And this is the mainstream Christian view, as I understand it. It's not the case that heaven is a spiritual place up there somewhere that we end up going to. Rather, heaven will come down to earth, as it did with the incarnation, and God will have created His new heaven and a new earth. The incarnation was a harbinger of things to come.

Christianity has always warned about the dangers of splitting ourselves up into a spiritual and a physical side, and consequently neglecting other's physical needs as being of no importance. This is why Jesus told us to feed the hungry, house the homeless and heal the sick.

What we do on this earth really does matter. God will use every act of kindness we do in building His new kingdom.



Okay but He also wishes us to bring these things to an end. He has commanded us to comfort the hurting people of the world so that they no longer hurt and to lift the world's poor out of poverty so that these things are no more. This is all part of the kingdom building task we are charged with.

As I say, AFAIK this is the mainstream view, not a wacky invention of my own making.

My second part with this world providing “tons of opportunities”, addresses you “neglecting other’s physical needs”. With all those opportunities to serve the physical needs of others we are very busy.

As far as: “heaven will come down to earth”, is not a majority view of Christians if you include Orthodox and Catholics. I believe we if we are here when he comes meet Him in the air to go on to heaven.

When do wars and roamers of wars cease, are the poor with us always, when can we act like Christ and not be treated like Christ?

When the Lord comes again to take us all home to heaven bad stuff stops happening.

Where are you reding: Christ wants us to bring these things to an end?

 

[bling]

As does the NT. . .but which you are trying to make include all mankind as children of God,
contrary to NT teaching.

I am saying we are all "off-springs of God", but you seem to be saying: An off-spring is not a child?
The subject is were we innocent at conception and all those who do mature sin or sinners at conception

 

[Clare73]

It looks like we are in agreement (although
something tells me I must have misunderstood something)

I think so. . .

Romans 5:18 "Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."
"All" means "all" in both cases - just as all are condemned in Adam, so are all justified in Christ.
But that's not what the verse says.

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22‬ ‭
It doesn't say "all those in Christ will be made alive". It says "all will be made alive in Christ". Who are these "all"? They are the same "all" as in the first clause, the people who died in Adam, i.e. everyone. How are they made alive? In Christ.

You are not understanding Romans 5:18b in the light of all the NT, in which all Scripture must be understood to be correctly understood.

The NT bears ample evidence that only those who believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ have eternal life.

Your understanding is in conflict with all that teaching and is, therefore, in error.

Not to mention that it is not orthodox Christianity.

 

[Clare73]

I am saying we are all "off-springs of God", but you seem to be saying: An off-spring is not a child?
The subject is were we innocent at conception and all those who do mature sin or sinners at conception

Previously addressed. . .

 

[bling]

Ah yes, Universalism. Did Jesus give His life as a ransom for all, or just many? Matthew 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”

Did Christ shed His blood for all? Mark 14:24 “And he said unto them, This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many.”

Is the promise of eternal life given to all? Acts 2:39 “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (God does not call all men.)

Was all mankind ordained to eternal life? Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Did Christ bear the sins all mankind? Hebrews 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

Will all the children of Israel turn to the Lord their God? Luke 1:16 "“And He will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God."

Will all enter heaven the only way Jesus provided, through the narrow gate? Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

John 17:2 “You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him." Jesus has authority over all flesh but eternal life will only be given to as many as God has given to Jesus.

If Christ gave His life a ransom for "all", if Christ shed His blood for "all", if the promise of eternal life is given to "all", if "all" mankind is ordained to eternal life, and if Christ bore the sins of "all" then "all" has had the ransom paid, all had Christ's blood shed for them, eternal life will be given to "all", and Christ bore the sins of "all" then "all" will go to heaven. Agnostics, God haters, unbelievers, Buddhists, Satan worshipers, atheists, will have no problem gaining entrance to heaven if you believe in universalism. Never mind that Jesus said that the goats in Matthew 25:41 will not make it! "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, (the goats) ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Only those who say that God's supreme attribute is love believe in the lie of universalism. God is love but He is also just. To allow "all" into heaven is not just.

I am not a universalist, but do believe Christ was the atoning sacrifice for everyone.

Atonement is a huge topic, which I could write a book on.

Atonement is a process and not just one act. Christ is the atonement sacrifice, but not the whole atonement process.

We need to start with Lev. 4 and 5 to understand the process the Jews went through for very minor sins (unintentional sins) which could be atoned for with a bag of flour as the atonement sacrifice.

Think about this just as a small example of the issue:

The atonement sacrifice is expressed by Jesus, John, Paul, Peter and the writer of Hebrews as a literal ransom scenario, but who is the criminal kidnapper?

When you talk with a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: a book, a doctrine, a theology, or a church? No! you are trying to help that sinner to humbly accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

If the sinner does accept this huge undeserved gift as pure charity, a child is released to enter the Kingdom and be with their father, but if the sinner refuses the undeserved gift a child is held back for the kingdom and his/her Father.

Jesus Christ and Him crucified is described in scripture as the ransom payment. The redemption comes with being set free to enter the Kingdom.

This is an excellent description of a ransom scenario, with the undeserving criminal kidnapper being the unbelieving sinner.

 

[Der Alte]

Speaking of "in Christ" we must not forget that passage that some Christians absolutely hate and try some pretty phenomenal acrobatics to change the meaning of, and that is Ephesians 1:4 "just as He [God] chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame..." The actual meaning? Before God created the world He chose certain individuals in Christ that they should be holy and without blame. We didn't choose God nor did we choose Christ, they chose us before the foundation of the world. In other words before we even had a chance to do anything at all. We had not sinned, we had not done any good works, we had not chosen to do righteousness rather than sin, (actually we could not choose righteousness over sin until we received Christ) so it was a win win situation. God was guaranteed that Christ's sacrifice could not be ignored by the God hating enemies that we are, and we get the blessings! Praise His holy name.

I have a different slant on that verse. Yes, God chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, the same way He chose the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”
Being chosen does not appear to be an iron clad, irrevocable ticket to heaven.

 

[Der Alte]

Notice the "For as"...

You will have to explain to me what exactly that proves.
Just noticed you quoted a corrupted translation of 1 Cor 15:22 The corrupted version you posted said "For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:22‬ " Almost missed this both clauses of the vs, have been corrupted. The vs. does not say as it has been corrupted "all die in Adam." It says "in Adam all die." We are already "in Adam" because we are literal, physical descendants of Adam. We do not die then become "in Adam" as your version reads.
And we don't die then become "in Christ."
In the following versions all say "in Christ all will be made alive." Note I have also quoted the Eastern [Greek] Orthodox Bible. Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the correct translation of the Greek words in the N.T. Those made alive must be "in Christ" first.

NET 1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
ASV
1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
ESV 1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
ISV1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in the Messiah will all be made alive.
EOB 1 Corinthians 15:22 As in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive​

 

[Hmm]

As far as: “heaven will come down to earth”, is not a majority view of Christians if you include Orthodox and Catholics. I believe we if we are here when he comes meet Him in the air to go on to heaven

I don't know what you think of NT Wright's take on this. He believes that the Rapture is not meant to be taken literally because it's a literary device Paul uses to conjure up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The custom at the time was for citizens to go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So the image of when "we meet Him in the air" should be read with the assumption that we will immediately turn around and lead Him back to the newly remade world

Where are you reding: Christ wants us to bring these things to an end?

Isn't it implicit in the commands to house the homeless etc? Surely God is not going to be annoyed if we give the very last homeless person a home any more than He would have been when we eradicated smallpox from the face of the earth? Perhaps the "poor will be with us" is not a statement of God's wishes but a sad prediction that humanity will fail in this task.

 

[Hmm]

Not to mention that it is not orthodox Christianity.

I agree it isn't now, but it was in the early church, and I'm inclined to trust that more.

 

[Clare73]

I agree it isn't now, but it was in the early church, and I'm inclined to trust that more.

I'm sure you'll understand if I go with the text.

 

[disciple Clint]

Did the definition of slavery change?

Well now if someone read what I suggested they would understand the differences.

 

[bling]

I don't know what you think of NT Wright's take on this. He believes that the Rapture is not meant to be taken literally because it's a literary device Paul uses to conjure up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The custom at the time was for citizens to go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So the image of when "we meet Him in the air" should be read with the assumption that we will immediately turn around and lead Him back to the newly remade world

One man's opinion.

Isn't it implicit in the commands to house the homeless etc? Surely God is not going to be annoyed if we give the very last homeless person a home any more than He would have been when we eradicated smallpox from the face of the earth? Perhaps the "poor will be with us" is not a statement of God's wishes but a sad prediction that humanity will fail in this task.

Jesus said " The poor will be with us always", and I not only believe Him, but also see the logic behind it. God cn have food fall from heaven if this is not what God feel humans need.

 

[Hmm]

One man's opinion.

Just to defend NT Wright here but what he is saying here about the Rapture is not just his personal opinion but the established traditional view. I only mentioned him to give a credible source. The more dramatic view of some people being zapped up to heaven leaving others behind is very much a modern, and almost Hollywood, view.

 

[Hmm]

I'm sure you'll understand if I go with the text.

Which text would that be?

 

[Tolworth John]

All of which still does not change God's legislation of slavery in Leviticus 25:39-54.

I am not changing it. It says what I have said.