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To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

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TLK Valentine

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The reason the apostle Paul was neutral about slavery and did not outright condemn it in his letters is because slavery was not like how we know it today.

I didn't ask about Paul. Paul's not the one who posted about the importance of people staying in their roles... you were.

What do you say?

I don't get what you mean. They/them are not singular pronouns.

Actually, they/them can be singular. Consider the following:

Which of these two sentences is grammatically correct?
  1. Everybody is going to be at Bob's party.
  2. Everybody are going to be at Bob's party.
1, of course, because the word "everybody" is grammatically singular.

Now, let's add to our grammatically correct sentence:

Everybody is going to be at Bob's party. They will get there by 6:30, and I'm going to be there waiting for them.

There you have it: "they" and "them" are grammatically acceptable singular pronouns, commonly used when the gender of the antecedent is either unknown or ambiguous... which would certainly apply to my nonbinary friend.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'm talking about what I mean and what I could mean.
It's not about capability, but it is out of respect to reflect the creation order.

And how does this respect the creation order?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes there is. Or are you saying everyone is a man or a woman, and nothing else? There are people who feel that they are neither, some who feel that they fluctuate between the two, some who are mostly one, but sometimes become more like another... But it most certainly is NOT a binary.

Yeah? Any empirical research on this or are we just taking their word on it?


Again, yes there is. There are plenty of different ways that sex chromosomes can come together that aren't XX or XY. It is NOT a binary.

Genetic anomalies aren't "new sexes".


No, I was responding to Didactics, who brought up gene mutations in post 263.

Ok....I don't know what he brought up but new evidence makes this look biological in origin.
 
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Kylie

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Yeah? Any empirical research on this or are we just taking their word on it?

Ah yes. A trans person comes up to you and says, "Despite being born in body X, I identify as gender Y," and your response is to say, "You got any actual evidence or am I just supposed to take your word for it?"

Again, I ask, are you a TERF?

I know you said you wouldn't call yourself that, but then again, terfs never do.


Genetic anomalies aren't "new sexes".

If chromosomes define biological sex, then why not? You can't just dismiss something because it's uncommon. saying it's an anomaly and therefore doesn't count is intellectually lazy.

Ok....I don't know what he brought up but new evidence makes this look biological in origin.

Who cares what the origin is? Doesn't change the fact that trans people deserve respect.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ah yes. A trans person comes up to you and says, "Despite being born in body X, I identify as gender Y," and your response is to say, "You got any actual evidence or am I just supposed to take your word for it?"

Wow...I'm not claiming trans people don't exist....I'm claiming the gender "spectrum" doesn't exist.

Again, I ask, are you a TERF?

Pretty sure I already told you I'm not a feminist.

I know you said you wouldn't call yourself that, but then again, terfs never do.

Just so we're clear...you can call me a TERF, bigot, white supremacist, or whatever else your heart desires.

i don't care even a little about your opinion of me. I understand that you were probably bullied into this weird cult-like belief system by people threatening you with labels....but pay attention...I'm an atheist on a Christian discussion forum lol. Obviously I'm not here seeking moral validation.



If chromosomes define biological sex, then why not? You can't just dismiss something because it's uncommon. saying it's an anomaly and therefore doesn't count is intellectually lazy.

1. I said nothing about chromosomes.
2. Can these people who are of a third sex reproduce and create more 3rd sex people?


Who cares what the origin is? Doesn't change the fact that trans people deserve respect.

Again, it doesn't appear that we agree on what respect is.

I respect them enough to not lie to them. You apparently think respect amounts to playing pretend.
 
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didactics

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So, as a moral being, you hope you would've held your tongue back in the day.

As a moral being in this day, are you still on board with it?
Oh, I wasn’t sure what you meant by, on board with that, as transvestites are not executed under the law of Moses anymore.



“Since, as Jesus said, the whole law of Moses depends on the commands to love, and we are commanded to love as Jesus loved us (John 13:34–35), we cannot use our freedom from the law of Moses as an excuse for sin.”



Is the law of Christ different from the law of Moses? If so, what is the law of Christ? By Compelling Truth
I didn't ask about Paul. Paul's not the one who posted about the importance of people staying in their roles... you were.

What do you say?
We were looking at a verse written by the apostle though. But what do I say? The Atlantic slave trade was wrong and Fredrick Douglass was an inspiring person in history.
And how does this respect the creation order?
For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 1 Timothy 2:13
 
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TLK Valentine

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Oh, I wasn’t sure what you meant by, on board with that, as transvestites are not executed under the law of Moses anymore.

Obviously not. Perhaps the reason the punishment no longer applies is because it's not a crime anymore?

“Since, as Jesus said, the whole law of Moses depends on the commands to love, and we are commanded to love as Jesus loved us (John 13:34–35), we cannot use our freedom from the law of Moses as an excuse for sin.”

Unless of course it's no longer a crime...


We were looking at a verse written by the apostle though. But what do I say? The Atlantic slave trade was wrong and Fredrick Douglass was an inspiring person in history.

What in the Bible says it's wrong?



For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 1 Timothy 2:13

For all you know, that just means Adam was practice, and then God got it right with Eve :)
 
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didactics

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What in the Bible says it's wrong?
The confusion may be due to the fact that we were interpreting Gal 3:28 differently. Because if I’m arguing that gender roles still matter, and only spiritually believers are equal, then am I arguing for slavery? I was saying, no it doesn’t necessarily mean that.
For all you know, that just means Adam was practice, and then God got it right with Eve :)
I’m not sure how to respond to that.
 
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ottawak

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I’m not sure how to respond to that.
The Garden story is a very rich, very deep story capable of a variety of interpretations as befits a divinely inspired religious narrative. Almost every time I read it I find some new way of thinking about it, but that one had never occurred to me. Thanks, TLK. :)
 
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didactics

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God is Holy and Just

If one can avoid fighting over mere words, the better. It is only appropriate to fight back out of self-defense or to handle things legally through the court of law. In watching part of a crime show, Murder Made Me Famous, I learned about a murder motivated by a false sense of vengeance against the system of justice. In short, a man served in prison for 18 years for a crime he didn’t commit, but upon release he committed an actual crime that he now serves for life.

I was watching tv in the break room while on my lunch (who knows why the food store invests its money in DirecTV service) and there was a story on Reelz about a guy who served a crime he didn’t commit and he had purchased a small tv to watch in his cell. He became hardened by the experience, and his cellmate recalled that it was like the tv was doing the time for him. The show even mentioned a Netflix series called, making a Murderer. Some criticism to the series was due to the fact that details were missing. After the man served his time (or tv) he later did commit a brutal crime and was sentenced to life in prison. What was the criticism? The Netflix series being criticized by the Reelz show put forward that it made light of his actual crime that he was guilty of, leaving out the reasonable evidence.

Now the writers/directors of this Netflix series seem to be approving murder. It’s not as severe an issue as committing the crime. But this sort of messaging only encourages people to lash out, to avenge themselves. And that’s kind of what we do when we hold others in contempt. Have you ever been angry with someone without a cause or ever hated anyone? It’s not right for one to take matters into their own hands. For the Christian the aim is to be at peace to the best of one’s ability, but it can’t always be helped if someone gets offended by just anything (like not using the preferred pronouns).

However, the one we don’t want to offend is God. But really, we all have actually offended Him. It is His right to take vengeance in the way He sees fit. He made clear in His Word what offends Him, namely sin. In Hebrews 9:27 it reads, “And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment”. [This following is written by Ray Comfort] In one ten-year period in the United States, 100,000 murderers were never brought to justice…It makes sense that if He is good and just, He should be angry with those who have taken the lives of others, and He should punish murderers, rapists, etc. This is the teaching of the Bible—that God will “by no means clear the guilty.” He “will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil.” “God is angry with the wicked every day.” (Ex 34:7; Ecc 12:14; Ps 7:11)
 
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TLK Valentine

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The confusion may be due to the fact that we were interpreting Gal 3:28 differently. Because if I’m arguing that gender roles still matter, and only spiritually believers are equal, then am I arguing for slavery? I was saying, no it doesn’t necessarily mean that.

But it may... because Paul uses a series of unequal separations to show how all should actually be equal in Christ...

...key word being "should."

I’m not sure how to respond to that.

Use your imagination.
 
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didactics

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Or… the Bible doesn’t describe reality, in terms of a deity…
That’s kind of a hard thing to sell. Is this the idea that the Bible’s real message got lost and the intent was only to offer us anecdotal stories?
 
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didactics

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But it may... because Paul uses a series of unequal separations to show how all should actually be equal in Christ...

...key word being "should."



Use your imagination.
“Instead, Christianity undermined the evils of slavery by changing the hearts of slaves and masters. By stressing the spiritual equality of master and slave (v. 16; Gal 3:28; Eph 6:9; Col 4:1; 1Ti 6:1, 2), the Bible did away with slavery’s abuses.”



“Introduction To Philemon” By John MacArthur
 
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ToddNotTodd

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That’s kind of a hard thing to sell. Is this the idea that the Bible’s real message got lost and the intent was only to offer us anecdotal stories?
No. The idea is that the Bible isn’t any different than any other mythology.
 
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didactics

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No. The idea is that the Bible isn’t any different than any other mythology.
So in other words, you don’t think the message got lost, instead, you think the writers fabricated the stories?
 
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