To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[TLK Valentine]

I thought someone might counter me on that note. I’m still not entirely convinced anyone has had this happen to them. But let’s suppose someone does have a mind that’s in the opposite body.

Personally I think it's a lot more complicated than "male brain" or "female brain," but for the purposes of this discussion, I'll go along.

How do we know that such a biological chimera constitutes a new sex? Humans are more than what they think.

They're also more than their bodies, so there we are. The whole really is greater than the sum of its parts.

It does make us unique beings that we are capable of discursive thinking. But we are also moral beings.

With you so far... We are indeed moral beings.

I still couldn’t get around what the Bible tells me in Deuteronomy 22:5, which specifically outlawed transvestism. It is an abomination, and though we are not held to Jewish laws and customs the moral law is still in effect.

And remind me again what the prescribed penalty is for committing an abomination before the Lord?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Oops! I stated, we are more than what we think. But I forgot about Proverbs 23:7.

I like Galatians 3:28, myself: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

It reminds us that Jesus is supposed to break all boundaries -- including gender boundaries -- but I also noticed something else. Notice a similarity?

Jew-Gentile,
slave-free
male-female

These aren't just boundaries that separate people, they're unequal boundaries. Jesus is meant to be the great equalizer... a lesson not enough of his followers remember.

 

[didactics]

And remind me again what the prescribed penalty is for committing an abomination before the Lord?

The prescribed law for the one who commits an abomination was to be put to death.

 

[didactics]

I like Galatians 3:28, myself: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

It reminds us that Jesus is supposed to break all boundaries -- including gender boundaries -- but I also noticed something else. Notice a similarity?

Jew-Gentile,
slave-free
male-female

These aren't just boundaries that separate people, they're unequal boundaries. Jesus is meant to be the great equalizer... a lesson not enough of his followers remember.

There is a distinction between Jew-Gentile, slave-free (employee-boss), male-female in a physical sense. This is about spiritual equality not a license to usurp another's role.

 

[PloverWing]

There is a distinction between Jew-Gentile, slave-free (employee-boss), male-female in a physical sense. This is about spiritual equality not a license to usurp another's role.

"License to usurp another's role" is interesting phrasing. What do you have in mind here?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Look at the bright side: they'll publish their findings in a book.

Publish their findings? Are you under the impression they do actual research?

I don't know if you noticed, but another poster pulled out a study of less than 129 trans people over a very short period and claimed it was "evidence" of some benefits of pronoun use.

There's no body of research backing any of this up. Scientifically....

1. We're sexually dimorphic, like other mammals.
2. There's two genders...that's it. Different sex hormones have different effects on brain development
3. Latest research suggests a mutated gene is interfering with testosterone uptake is the likely the cause of trans people.

That's where the science is at.

 

[Kylie]

“Finally, some brain structural changes were detected that were also more similar, but not identical, to those typical of the desired gender of GD boys and girls.”

"Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age." ScienceDaily.



Yes, but there’s still a problem, because I don’t think that’s the same as saying, you can have a female brain typical in every way in a male body.



“Sometimes, but not always, this condition is caused because a male fetus is immune to testosterone. When this happens, the testosterone released by the mother’s body during development doesn’t trigger the signal to map the brain as male, and a female mind is created,”

“The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans” By Joshua Kennon



Something about what he is stating sounds fishy to me. After all, though brain studies are possible, which give us a clue of what the mind thinks, we cannot look at the mind itself.

Do you have anything more than you saying, "Yeah, but I just don't buy it"?

Because that's called "argument from incredulity" and it's a logical fallacy.

 

[Kylie]

I wouldn't call myself a feminist....but what's your point?

Is your whole political view reduced to "if you don't agree with me you're a bad person"?

No, but it seems that if you refuse to respect a group of people because of your ideas about what they should be based on the shape of their genitals you might be.

 

[Kylie]

No there isn't.

Yes there is. Or are you saying everyone is a man or a woman, and nothing else? There are people who feel that they are neither, some who feel that they fluctuate between the two, some who are mostly one, but sometimes become more like another... But it most certainly is NOT a binary.

No...there isn't.

Again, yes there is. There are plenty of different ways that sex chromosomes can come together that aren't XX or XY. It is NOT a binary.

If you're trying to confuse the issue by bringing up intersex people...

1. They typically identify as male or female and live their lives as such.
2. It's a genetic anomaly. It happens because biology isn't a perfect process....it makes mistakes. Ever heard of appendicitis? These are normal occurrences but they do not represent a "spectrum" of biological sex.

No, I was responding to Didactics, who brought up gene mutations in post 263.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The prescribed law for the one who commits an abomination was to be put to death.

And as a moral being, are you on board with that?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Publish their findings? Are you under the impression they do actual research?

Ooo... That's a tough one. Do I trust them, or you?

 

[TLK Valentine]

There is a distinction between Jew-Gentile, slave-free (employee-boss), male-female in a physical sense. This is about spiritual equality not a license to usurp another's role.

The role of free vs slave? Slaves should remain slaves and never try to be free?

There's a Mr. Frederick Douglass who would like to laugh at speak on that notion...

I mean seriously; I've got friends who prefer they/them pronouns... As such pronouns in the singular are grammatically correct, why shouldn't I address people with the same respect I would ask for myself? It does no harm, and it's in accordance with the golden rule.

 

[didactics]

"License to usurp another's role" is interesting phrasing. What do you have in mind here?

Well, I could have several things in mind. I could just be arguing against transvestism and being non-affirming. While I think it’s appropriate for women to be evangelists, I don’t think this verse allows women to be behind the pulpit. Another thing I think about is what does it look like for man to be head of the household? I think he is to be one that is a spiritual leader, involved in godly devotion.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well, I could have several things in mind. I could just be arguing against transvestism and being non-affirming.

Any reason you're talking about what you could mean instead of what you did mean?

While I think it’s appropriate for women to be evangelists, I don’t think this verse allows women to be behind the pulpit.

Are women not capable of doing this?

Another thing I think about is what does it look like for man to be head of the household?

What does it look like?

I think he is to be one that is a spiritual leader, involved in godly devotion.

Are women not capable of doing this, either?

 

[PloverWing]

Well, I could have several things in mind. I could just be arguing against transvestism and being non-affirming. While I think it’s appropriate for women to be evangelists, I don’t think this verse allows women to be behind the pulpit. Another thing I think about is what does it look like for man to be head of the household? I think he is to be one that is a spiritual leader, involved in godly devotion.

So, it looks like gender roles are going to be another thing we disagree about.

Even if the whole world consists of cis men and cis women -- even if there are no transgender people at all -- I still have no use for assigned gender roles. There's too much in the New Testament about breaking down the barriers that divide us.

Regarding your two specific examples, I think that both parents should lead their household, spiritually and in other ways. And my church allows women to participate at all levels of ministry, both ordained and lay.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So, it looks like gender roles are going to be another thing we disagree about.

indeed -- we'll have to add it to an ever-growing list.

Even if the whole world consists of cis men and cis women -- even if there are no transgender people at all -- I still have no use for assigned gender roles. There's too much in the New Testament about breaking down the barriers that divide us.

It's what I was getting at before.

Slavery is biblical... So is chainbreaking...
But only one is Christlike.
Patriarchy is biblical... So is empowering women...
But only one is Christlike.
Preserving the status quo is biblical... So is kicking over the tables of the status quo...
But only one is Christlike.

Regarding your two specific examples, I think that both parents should lead their household, spiritually and in other ways. And my church allows women to participate at all levels of ministry, both ordained and lay.

And I see from your profile that you, too, call the Garden State your home.
And.... (Looks out window) yep, Jersey is doing just fine.

 

[didactics]

And as a moral being, are you on board with that?

That is a good question. If I were in those days seeing an execution take place, what would I think? I think it would be sobering and it might even put the fear of God in me. Why does God detest it so much and should I be on board with execution? It does require a bit of imagination to consider what it would be like to live in those days and in that culture. I would say if it was done lawfully and on account of two witnesses, then I should hope that I agreed with the verdict. But let’s keep in mind, it wasn’t like they didn’t have their own ways of providing mental health—namely God prescribed that the people should meditate on His Word.

 

[didactics]

The role of free vs slave? Slaves should remain slaves and never try to be free?

There's a Mr. Frederick Douglass who would like to laugh at speak on that notion...

I mean seriously; I've got friends who prefer they/them pronouns... As such pronouns in the singular are grammatically correct, why shouldn't I address people with the same respect I would ask for myself? It does no harm, and it's in accordance with the golden rule.

The reason the apostle Paul was neutral about slavery and did not outright condemn it in his letters is because slavery was not like how we know it today. His priority was being a minister to the Gentiles. It was later times when Africans were shipped off far away from their land and sold by their own people.

I don't get what you mean. They/them are not singular pronouns.

 

[didactics]

Any reason you're talking about what you could mean instead of what you did mean?



Are women not capable of doing this?




What does it look like?




Are women not capable of doing this, either?

I'm talking about what I mean and what I could mean.
It's not about capability, but it is out of respect to reflect the creation order.

 

[TLK Valentine]

That is a good question. If I were in those days seeing an execution take place, what would I think? I think it would be sobering and it might even put the fear of God in me. Why does God detest it so much and should I be on board with execution? It does require a bit of imagination to consider what it would be like to live in those days and in that culture. I would say if it was done lawfully and on account of two witnesses, then I should hope that I agreed with the verdict. But let’s keep in mind, it wasn’t like they didn’t have their own ways of providing mental health—namely God prescribed that the people should meditate on His Word.

So, as a moral being, you hope you would've held your tongue back in the day.

As a moral being in this day, are you still on board with it?