To Seem, Rather Than To Be? (Trans Ideology)

[TLK Valentine]

But technically speaking, if the primary functions are working properly, then the secondary traits should not be fundamentally altered, right?

You say this, but you also say:

See I think it’s too reductionist that if I think gender/sex is binary then our genitals are the only thing that define us. Most of us know that we have hormones too. I understand next to nothing about what chromosomes are, but I know it is a primary trait distinguishes between male and female.

You're sending a mixed message.

Perhaps you should learn a bit more about the subject and come to a better understanding yourself, before dictating how others should be treated?

 

[didactics]

You say this, but you also say:



You're sending a mixed message.

Perhaps you should learn a bit more about the subject and come to a better understanding yourself, before dictating how others should be treated?

Well hold on, just because I have a question about something doesn't mean that my premise is wrong. I'm just learning that bones are a secondary sexual characteristic. And I'm wanting to know more about that. Can an osteologist always determine someones sex? Isn't it true that a woman with a mistake of xy chromosomes still has a distinguishable female anatomy?

 

[PloverWing]

Isn't it true that a woman with a mistake of xy chromosomes still has a distinguishable female anatomy?

Here are a couple of web sites describing the condition of having XY chromosomes and female external genitalia:
Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics
XY gonadal dysgenesis - Wikipedia

I'll let you decide whether you consider such a person to be male or female.

 

[muichimotsu]

But technically speaking, if the primary functions are working properly, then the secondary traits should not be fundamentally altered, right?

Not how it works: a woman can be fertile and still have variance within a spectrum as regards female secondary sex characteristics. Expecting everyone to fit into a neat little box doesn't suggest any kind of intellectual humility, it just shows more of you succumbing to the Dunning Kruger effect and not having the wherewithal to recognize it

 

[RileyG]

Chromosomes define sex. period. Changing your appearance, name, and flooding your body with hormones does not change reality.

 

[muichimotsu]

Chromosomes define sex. period. Changing your appearance, name, and flooding your body with hormones does not change reality.

Reality is more than your genitals, so nice try at reductionist essentialist rhetoric, but it doesn't work unless you expect everyone in the discussion to be of far less intellect than you fancy yourself to have

The body is flooded with hormones during puberty, the reality is still there in terms of something that hormones are a factor of, but not the sole determinant of gender identity, which is not the same as sexuality, etc, or even indicative of any particular sexual orientation.

My trans friend does not deny he still has female anatomy, that is not what they are claiming in terms of their identity. They are claiming to be a man, not male, big difference, much as it's still conflated as if the terms are identical

 

[RileyG]

Reality is more than your genitals, so nice try at reductionist essentialist rhetoric, but it doesn't work unless you expect everyone in the discussion to be of far less intellect than you fancy yourself to have

The body is flooded with hormones during puberty, the reality is still there in terms of something that hormones are a factor of, but not the sole determinant of gender identity, which is not the same as sexuality, etc, or even indicative of any particular sexual orientation.

My trans friend does not deny he still has female anatomy, that is not what they are claiming in terms of their identity. They are claiming to be a man, not male, big difference, much as it's still conflated as if the terms are identical

sincere question: How does a man know what it's like to be a woman? How does a woman know what it's like to be a man? I do understand the difference between sex and gender.

 

[comana]

Chromosomes define sex. period. Changing your appearance, name, and flooding your body with hormones does not change reality.

Pretty sure transpersons are aware of their chromosomes. This is about living as the gender they feel they are which happens to not match their chromosomes.

 

[comana]

sincere question: How does a man know what it's like to be a woman? How does a woman know what it's like to be a man? I do understand the difference between sex and gender.

A question best answered by someone who is transgender.

 

[RileyG]

Pretty sure transpersons are aware of their chromosomes. This is about living as the gender they feel they are which happens to not match their chromosomes.

fair...i'll see myself out.

 

[muichimotsu]

sincere question: How does a man know what it's like to be a woman? How does a woman know what it's like to be a man? I do understand the difference between sex and gender.

You assume it's somehow an innate thing rather than socially constructed and conditioned. Masculinity and femininity are not universal as to what constitutes which and frankly it's often a ridiculous and myopic idea, like the notion that girls can't play with action figures and boys can't play with dolls because it's "wrong" somehow

How do YOU know what it feels like to be another person? You're undermining your own question with simple phenomenological conundrums that aren't that easily answered to begin with. A sense of being a man or woman (or even non binary, among other variations) is not something that's reducible to genitals or chromosomes, because those are observable in a way that doesn't come up against the kind of experimental distortions that happen because of our innately subjective lens

 

[muichimotsu]

fair...i'll see myself out.

Aw, it must be hard to be challenged on the idea that you think everyone has to fit into a neat little box of they're aberrant, mentally ill, etc.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well hold on, just because I have a question about something doesn't mean that my premise is wrong. I'm just learning that bones are a secondary sexual characteristic. And I'm wanting to know more about that. Can an osteologist always determine someones sex? Isn't it true that a woman with a mistake of xy chromosomes still has a distinguishable female anatomy?

Always? No. Most of the time? Certainly.

Because bones are only one of a number of biological sex characteristics -- along with genitals, chromosomes, hormone levels and reactions, among other biological traits.

In intersex people, not all of these traits point in the same direction. Now, as previously mentioned, intersex is a small percentage of the population, but their existence shows that even biological sex is more of a spectrum than a binary choice.

So the bones might tell the tale 99% of the time, or even 99.9% of the time... But "always" is a dirty word in the sciences...

Now, when we discuss the transgender, we're talking about gender, not sex. While biology is an influence when it comes to gender, there's also society and psychology to consider... and those factors influence one another.

And that's just the formation of a gender identity... the next step is discussing how it's used: Its role in forming and maintaining social norms, its association with a person's greater sense of identity, how a person experiences life as a (or perceived as a) member of a specific gender, how they choose to express themselves in terms of gender, etc... None of which is bound to biology.

 

[TLK Valentine]

sincere question: How does a man know what it's like to be a woman? How does a woman know what it's like to be a man? I do understand the difference between sex and gender.

"Gender" is as much a societal construct as it is physical or psychological. One can look at society and see how men and women are treated, and what is expected of them.

Sincere question: How do you know what it's supposed to be like to even be your own gender? Would you know if you were doing it wrong?

 

[TLK Valentine]

My trans friend does not deny he still has female anatomy, that is not what they are claiming in terms of their identity. They are claiming to be a man, not male, big difference, much as it's still conflated as if the terms are identical

My trans friend says the same, and I told him the only difference between us is that my parts are factory original, and he's saving his money for an upgrade.

 

[RileyG]

Aw, it must be hard to be challenged on the idea that you think everyone has to fit into a neat little box of they're aberrant, mentally ill, etc.

I never said they were "aberrant," "mentally ill," and I am not being challenged. I simply do not and cannot understand. I mean no disrespect to any trans person.

 

[RileyG]

"Gender" is as much a societal construct as it is physical or psychological. One can look at society and see how men and women are treated, and what is expected of them.

Sincere question: How do you know what it's supposed to be like to even be your own gender? Would you know if you were doing it wrong?

How is gender a social construct? It's a sincere question. Elaborate a bit more if you choose.

I am a man. I was born one. Will die one. simple

 

[RileyG]

Forcing someone to accept an ideology they think is morally wrong is flat out wrong.

That goes for the LGBT+ crowd forcing traditional orthodox Christians accept their ideology and lifestyle. I can respect a person without approving of every action they do. Sometimes, the left just does not understand this. It's a two way street.

 

[didactics]

I assume that you have not heard of Intersex people -- those whose bodies biologically differ from the conventional expectations of "male" or "female."

For starters, their chromosomes differ from the XX ("female") or XY ("male") standards -- there are Xs, XXYs, XYYs, etc. Also, their bodies respond differently to hormones (specifically testosterone and estrogen) than people of their apparent biological sex. Finally, their ability to produce sperm and/or eggs is not what you'd expect -- most of them can produce neither, while according to anecdotal evidence (I haven't found a link to confirm this) a very few can produce both.

Now, we're only talking about a small percentage of the population who are biologically intersex -- because the definitions of sex are not as clear cut as you would like, and not everyone with these biological traits chooses to come forward, the estimates range from as high as 4% to as low as .0018% of the population. (source: Intersex population figures – Intersex Human Rights Australia)

...but any number in that range is still larger than zero, which means there are people who don't fall into your biological distinctions of "male" or "female."

I copied this from Answer In Genesis:

• Hermaphroditism or intersex describes a child born with both ovarian and testicular tissue. However, in the vast majority of these cases, the child is genetically either XX (female) or XY (male), not both. The underlying cause for the physical abnormality is unknown.
• Congenital adrenal hyperplasia results from insufficient or excessive sex steroids, resulting in an outward appearance that may be opposite of the underlying chromosomes; but again, the child is genetically only XX or only XY.
• Androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs in genetic males (XY) whose tissues are unresponsive to male hormones, so they outwardly appear anatomically female. (Normal males and females have both testosterone and estrogen/progesterone, but the levels of the hormones and tissue responsiveness vary depending on whether they are male or female.)
• Turner’s syndrome occurs in females that have only one X chromosome (XO). Their ovaries typically degenerate before birth, so they do not develop female secondary sex characteristics and are infertile.
• Klinefelter’s syndrome occurs in males that have two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (XXY). They develop reduced male secondary sex characteristics and are also typically infertile.
• XX male or XY female occurs very rarely (less than .005% of live births). This results from either a translocation (movement) of the SRY gene to an X chromosome or a mutation in the SRY gene, respectively. These individuals typically do not display secondary sex characteristics and are infertile. Since the SRY gene determines male anatomy and “maleness,” if it is present, then the individual is male (even if the person has two X chromosomes); and if not, then the individual is female (even if the person has an X and Y chromosome).

The Biology of Gender

 

[TLK Valentine]

How is gender a social construct? It's a sincere question. Elaborate a bit more if you choose.

Certainly...

I am a man. I was born one. Will die one. simple

I'm going to assume that here you're referring to your biological sex -- you are a man because of certain dangly bits you have in your shorts. Fair enough.

You were born one. You will die one. Indeed it is simple. Now comes the more complicated question: What will you do during during all the time in between?

• What does society expect you to do -- and not do -- because you're a man?
• What roles (in the family, the community, the workspace, the country, etc.) are you expected to fulfill? Which ones are off-limits -- because you're a man?
• How are you supposed to behave? What kind of emotions are you allowed to express in public? What kind of normally frowned-on behaviors can you get away with? What behaviors are completely unacceptable -- because you're a man?

All these questions have certain answers which are subtly enforced by our culture. Let me give you two examples from Hollywood:

In 1983, Michael Keaton starred in a comedy called Mr. Mom. The plot was simple enough: he's an auto engineer who gets laid off, so when his wife manages to find work before he does, he agrees to stay home and watch the children while she works....hijinks ensue because while he means well and does his best, as a "man," he's clueless as a homemaker.

Question: Want to guess how the movie ends?

Second example: in the Police Academy movies, the late ex-NFL star Bubba Smith played Cadet/Officer Hightower. His imposing presence and physical strength was the source of most of the humor around his character:

The joke? During the first movie, Hightower mentions that before joining the police force, he was a florist. There's even a scene when he (briefly) quits the force and goes back to his old job:

Question: the scene is played for laughs, but why is it funny?

See what I mean about "gender" being (at least partially) a social construct?