Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[Hmm]

I can accept conditionalism, and consider the arguments for it sound

You've clearly given this a lot of thought so I'd be interested in your thoughts on these questions. At what point would God admit defeat and decide to permanently erase a life? How would that act effect the experience of heaven for that person's parents, children, partner etc? And finally, how does the picture of God destroying someone fit in with the image of Christ?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Well you are looking from the wrong perspective. Death was defeated when Jesus rose from the dead. So were Satan, and all principalities, powers, the wicked rulers of the darkness of this age and the spiritual wickedness in high places. They are still present with us, but we only have to resist them and they will flee. We fight because we have the victory now, not so we can win the victory some time in the future.

Physical death is nothing. I've been close to death twice in the last 3 years. I could not care less. My spirit is eternal and cannot die.

2 Timothy 1:10

And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel.

Romans 8:10

10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I guess I see it that God is outside time and he sees the beginning from the end . When Jesus was talking he sees it as done but we still have to go through the process till it’s realized. Just like how Jesus could say to people there sins are forgiven before the cross, he saw it as already accomplished but he still had to go through the cross. That is why we still see death and will till the end.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I’d you believe in UR like I do , by God killing the bodies of those people in OT he was doing them a favor. If they would continue in life they would have pilled up even more sin and infect others with there sin , so God took mercy on them and cut there days short so they would spend less time in the lake of fire. It would only be pagan if they were tortured forever like the pagans believe.

No same people, same groups, same book, same results. Why are you conflating them ?

Revelation 20
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 22
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[Der Alte]

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:6 This is the first resurrection. 6 and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

My name for these two sentient beings are “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Feel free to call them whatever you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new,” vs. 5. “No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still] the second death.”
If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No same people, same groups, same book, same results. Why are you conflating them ?

Revelation 20
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 22
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Let me ask you a question. Why are the leaves of the tree of life, in the new Jerusalem, said to be for the healing of the nations if you are in heaven you would not need healing Jesus already did that. Or could it be for the very people who Rev22:15 are talking about? Or do you see it just a figurative thing?

 

[Saint Steven]

These strawmen really do need to get together and form a union. They are definitely being overworked and they must feel really embarrassed at times.

"How about a fire ball, Scarecrow?" - Wicked witch of the west, the Wizard of Oz

 

[Saint Steven]

God offers salvation to all. Not all accept. It's that simple.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. IMHO

 

[RickReads]

"How about a fire ball, Scarecrow?" - Wicked witch of the west, the Wizard of Oz

You guys are doing a really good job.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Wrong, wrong and wrong. IMHO

God does not offer salvation to all? Everyone accepts? It's super complicated?
John 3, the including the verses that follow 16:

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”

 

[Aussie Pete]

You've clearly given this a lot of thought so I'd be interested in your thoughts on these questions. At what point would God admit defeat and decide to permanently erase a life? How would that act effect the experience of heaven for that person's parents, children, partner etc? And finally, how does the picture of God destroying someone fit in with the image of Christ?

Something most people seem to overlook is God's holiness and righteousness. We can see how much God hates sin by the punishment that Jesus endured for sinners. Lord Jesus could have been executed by the sword, relatively quick and less painful. No, He was tortured, beaten, humiliated and treated as the lowest criminal. This is He who is Lord of all and co-creator of the universe. The One who did not one thing to offend the Father, the One who pleased God.

People choose to reject Jesus, ignore His suffering for them, treat His people with contempt and mock God. They will regret this. Esau tried to repent because he traded his birthright for a bowl of lentil stew. It was too late.
Hebrews 12
16See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears.

Likewise, people who reject Jesus in this life have no opportunity to repent, even if they seek it with tears. UR is a false hope and denies God's holiness and righteousness. God is love, but God is also a consuming fire. It is a terrifying thing to fall into His hands. UR people should read Hebrews 12. And Revelation 6:16

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

 

[wendykvw]

A post full of vague generalities "Many are discovering..." "Universalism is an ancient teaching, not a modern invention...""the growing amount of Pastors who are also making this discovery..."

At your link there are only 3 paragraphs about Jesus and not one definitive statement by Jesus, Himself, stating that all mankind will be saved the righteous with the unrighteous alike, even after death or words to that effect.

The Apostolic Era
Jesus of Nazareth, known to his followers as the Messiah (Christ), taught that God has a benevolent Fatherly nature and character. In moving parables such as the Prodigal Son, the Lost Sheep, and the Good Samaritan, he emphasized love, mercy, forgiveness, and compassion for all people. He instructed people to love not only their neighbors but also their enemies; forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery, who was supposed to be stoned to death according to Jewish religious law; and even asked God to forgive the Roman soldiers who pounded nails into his own hands.
...When Jesus spoke of God’s judgment upon the wicked, he did so with words that implied a limited, corrective punishment. Specifically, he referred to divine judgment as aionios kolasis, meaning age-long chastisement. The idea was that a person who turns away from God and lives a life of evil will have to face justice — a purgatorial period in the afterlife — before enjoying eventual harmonious reunion with God.
...Jesus explicitly prophesied that after his death on the cross and resurrection, he will “draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32).​

I could share what verses support a universalist model. But I am not sure that it would help convince someone who has a different model like ECT or annihilation, or who has already made their mind up. What do you think?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I could share what verses support a universalist model. But I am not sure that it would help convince someone who has a different model like ECT or annihilation, or who has already made their mind up. What do you think?

As the OP said, the UR position has been stated here fairly often. I was made aware of UR about 15 years ago. I studied it thoroughly as I find the concept appealing. However, it can only be supported by selectively quoting scripture and ignoring those verses that contradict UR. So no, you won't change my mind.

 

[RickReads]

Let me ask you a question. Why are the leaves of the tree of life, in the new Jerusalem, said to be for the healing of the nations if you are in heaven you would not need healing Jesus already did that. Or could it be for the very people who Rev22:15 are talking about? Or do you see it just a figurative thing?

This is definitely speculation territory. That question is interesting to me. I very recently had a conversation about this with another site member. He pressed me on the tree of life which we both agree is a metaphor for Jesus.

That opinion works excellently until you get to Revelation 22 and I didn't have an answer for this hiccup.
Consequently, I`ve been meditating on this passage ever since and I believe I have the answer. This I will share soon. It will take me a little time to put it together so I think I need to do it when I`m a little fresher. But I`m your huckleberry and I will give you the answer to this challenge real soon.

Who knows though, maybe somebody will beat me to it between now and then.
There would be less work for me if they did.

 

[wendykvw]

As the OP said, the UR position has been stated here fairly often. I was made aware of UR about 15 years ago. I studied it thoroughly as I find the concept appealing. However, it can only be supported by selectively quoting scripture and ignoring those verses that contradict UR. So no, you won't change my mind.

I understand your position. This has been the predicament for all of Christianity since the beginning. We have multiple denominations that all focus on a different view for pretty much any doctrine. For example if you are a Catholic vs. a Baptist; Salvation is based on works where as a Baptist it is based on Faith. A seventh Day Adventist focuses on keeping the Sabbath and if you are Pentecostal you focus on speaking in tongues.. So on and so forth. Universalism focuses on Christ and His work, they also focus on sanctification. So they are a mix I would say between a Calvinist and an Arminian.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I understand your position. This has been the predicament for all of Christianity since the beginning. We have multiple denominations that all focus on a different view for pretty much any doctrine. For example if you are a Catholic vs. a Baptist; Salvation is based on works where as a Baptist it is based on Faith. A seventh Day Adventist focuses on keeping the Sabbath and if you are Pentecostal you focus on speaking in tongues.. So on and so forth. Universalism focuses on Christ and His work, they also focus on sanctification. So they are a mix I would say between a Calvinist and an Arminian.

I've yet to find a biblical statement to the church that says something like, "Don't worry, God will save everyone someday anyway". The opposite. Hebrews 12 should give UR supporters food for thought.

 

[wendykvw]

I've yet to find a biblical statement to the church that says something like, "Don't worry, God will save everyone someday anyway". The opposite. Hebrews 12 should give UR supporters food for thought.

Exactly. I held your position for over twenty years. However I saw a problem with Satan winning the majority and Christ only winning a minority. The fall in Eden was a major catastrophe. I would hope that God could restore creation to its pre-fallen condition. Otherwise Satan outwitted God. If you truly think about this , I don’t see how you could reasonable give credit to the wicked deeds of the devil.

 

[RickReads]

Let me ask you a question. Why are the leaves of the tree of life, in the new Jerusalem, said to be for the healing of the nations if you are in heaven you would not need healing Jesus already did that. Or could it be for the very people who Rev22:15 are talking about? Or do you see it just a figurative thing?

It's a new earth and God's people have new bodies so it isn't physical healing it's spiritual. The healing that still needs to take place is the damage done to the spirit during this life.

Rev 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 7
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 22 is metaphor but prophetic metaphors stand for literal things. The living water is the Holy Spirit. The Tree of life is Jesus and the multiple trees in the street and on both sides of the water is Jesus inhabiting the people. The leaves are God wiping away the tears and healing the spiritual damage done during this life.

It's great when the Bible interprets itself.

 

[Hmm]

I guess I see it that God is outside time and he sees the beginning from the end . When Jesus was talking he sees it as done but we still have to go through the process till it’s realized. Just like how Jesus could say to people there sins are forgiven before the cross, he saw it as already accomplished but he still had to go through the cross. That is why we still see death and will till the end.

That's an interesting perspective that seems to make.sense of Jesus's "It is accomplished" remark.

One of the problems with ECT is that it keeps the fear of sin up in the air. We've heard it said often enough by Team Hell in these universalist threads that Christians need to believe in ECT to keep themselves from sinning. This is really saying that they are motivated by believing that they themselves could go to hell. It's a self-reinforcing fear upon fear - you can't stop believing in ECT because you fear that that would bring ECT about and, on top of that, you believe you actually need its fear component in order not to sin - which they then try to propogate onto others.

Interestingly enough, I've heard this same mental trap described by people who left Christianity completely, that they were afraid to stop being a Christian because they were afraid they would become some kind of wildly immoral person. Of course, they didn't.

 

[Saint Steven]

God does not offer salvation to all? Everyone accepts? It's super complicated?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I've yet to find a biblical statement to the church that says something like, "Don't worry, God will save everyone someday anyway". The opposite. Hebrews 12 should give UR supporters food for thought.

I wonder if this discussion would be better served by finding out how the second temple Jews understood the word that we have translated saved in the English translation. When I read I see the word saved used more than one way, Jesus healing someone would sometimes say they were saved and all he did was heal them. We use the word to be someone who has accepted Jesus and follows him and is now going to heaven. Maybe they did not think that way, maybe it’s not a choice between heaven or hell. When the UR camp says Jesus is the savior of the world it doesn’t have to be everyone is going to heaven. Maybe it’s more like Jesus paid the price for all no one is going to be eternally dammed but not all get the same rewards. I personally see it not as a heaven or hell offer but a offer to be part of the family of God or those who will be subjects of the Kingdom reign of God.Jesus talked a number of times about a king who ruled and those he ruled over . Or when He needed money to pay the tax and he asked his disciples who pays the tax ? The Kings kids or those who are subjects of the king, or the parable of the ruler who went away and gave his servants money and those who multiplied it they became ruler’s over cities.I think Jesus was hinting at what was to come. He already paid the price for everyone but not all will be part of his rule and rein as family. Some will be thrown in prison till every last penny is paid. So maybe we need to understand how saved was used in the second temple Jew mind.