POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

[yeshuasavedme]

Here we go, I found it.


1 Samuel 2:8 -- English

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

"He reyseth vp the poore out of the dust, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hyll: to sett them amonge princes, and to enherett them with the seate of glorye. For the pillers of the erth are the lordes, and he hath sett the rounde worlde vpon them" (1539 Great Bible).

"Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

These pillars are the saints for God raises them up out of the dong hill and makes them pillars of faith, the pillars of the earth. That's what the expression means. In the New Testament, the Apostles are referred to as pillars. It's an expression and not to be taken in the literal 21st century English scientific sense. It's Hebrew....not English.

The phrase "round world" is translated from tebel.

Hebrew Masoretic Text:

מקים מעפר דל מאשׁפת ירים אביון להושׁיב עם נדיבים וכסא כבוד ינחלם כי ליהוה מצקי ארץ וישׁת עליהם תבל

Word: תבל - H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

"world, earth, globe"
תבל - Translation into English - examples Hebrew | Reverso Context

Old Testament Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible.

"8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].
The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: the habibitable globe
H8398 - tēḇēl - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

View attachment 315608


Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

"This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

"9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).
OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).
Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141) ; --> 'eres (earth, land, #824) ; --> têbêl (world, #9315) ."

Breakdown of Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

Gesenius': ",the habitable globe, οἰκουμένη"

TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth"

AND

"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

I am familiar with the works of Issac Mozeson who has written a dictionary, "The Word" showing the Hebrew roots of English (and by extension, of all the tongues of men), as Noah Webster also did, and as many others in history also believed and were able to demonstrate. The best take away from that familiarity is that every etymon (letter) in the Hebrew Alephbet (alphabet) means something real and "concrete". 3 letters together can make a whole sentence.
What people who believe flat earth cannot see is that YHVH, our Creator, is the author of the mother tongue and of the alephbet/alphabet which He downloaded into Adam's computer/mind/inderstanding.
Because of that, Adam named all the animals and fowl with understanding of their characteristics. All the names meant something real about them, just as everything YHVH named meant something real and "concrete" about them ( like "Two Waters" for the stretched out firmament, which English calls heavens).
Anyway, the elements of the word translated globe, "t, b, l" can never mean flat. English words using the b, l, elements include "bulb, belly, bell, ball, bulbous, balloon, globe" and many others.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I wonder if Isaiah 41:10 has ever read the Bible through, and more than once, and daily reads through it? Reason to wonder is the total disconnect with the Word of God from the beginning, and on to the end of it.
I have been reading it through for over 52 years, and understanding and insight does not come all at once, and of a day, even, and more is always opened to our understanding as we go, but the basic facts of creation and of the Gospel do not change, are not fluid, and are not hidden. Reading it through again and again never leads a reader to the conclusions of flat earthers. Not once!

 

[RDKirk]

If you don't have the technology or methods to determine that earth is round, a flat earth really is the more "common sense" approach because earth is so large that it naturally looks flat.

So the ancients would have believed earth was flat until otherwise discovered.

Well, we know that the ancient Greeks had discovered the earth was spherical by about 350 BC. It doesn't take technology, it just takes logical observation.

But the important question to me is not whether ancient Hebrews thought the world was flat. I frankly don't care what they thought about the topology of the planet.

Because the ancient Greeks had discovered the spheroidal topology of the planet hundreds of years before Christ, I'm much more interested in whether Christians believed the planet was flat.

All evidence we have indicates that the early Church accepted the Greek discovery...or rather, the Greeks who became Christians saw nothing in Old Testament scripture to make them abandon their discovery.

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, we know that the ancient Greeks had discovered the earth was spherical by about 350 BC. It doesn't take technology, it just takes logical observation.

But the important question to me is not whether ancient Hebrews thought the world was flat. I frankly don't care what they thought about the topology of the planet.

Because the ancient Greeks had discovered the spheroidal topology of the planet hundreds of years before Christ, I'm much more interested in whether Christians believed the planet was flat.

All evidence we have indicates that the early Church accepted the Greek discovery...or rather, the Greeks who became Christians saw nothing in Old Testament scripture to make them abandon their discovery.

Ancient Hebrews of course are the authors of Genesis, so why should we have more interest in the thoughts of Greeks who lived over a thousand years later?

There are a few ways to rationalize the situation.

Either we continue to read modern science into scripture, ie genesis teaches us about dinosaurs and the firmament is actually the planets electromagnetic field and scripture teaches heliocentrism, while simultaneously hitting major road blocks with things like modern geology and biology.

Or, we acknowledge a pre-scientific position of the ancient Hebrews.

I would say that the former option really misconstrues both scripture and science. Whereas the latter, while it can lead to complicated theological implications, it let's scripture and science be what they are without manipulation of either to force them to "fit together".

For generations people have tried to either uncomfortably cram modern science into scripture (Typically this is what YECism does) at a sacrifice to science. While others sacrifice scripture to make scripture fit into modern science (sometimes things like OECism involves this where people suggest things like gap theory for example).

But I would say that, really the science vs religion "debate" can be quite easily resolved by simply acknowledging that the authors of Genesis simply weren't aware of scientific information that we are today, and thus, we should not hold an expectation that Genesis is teaching us about dinosaurs or modern astrophysics. Thereby releasing both scripture and science of needing to fit together.

And I would say that scripture is best justified this way regarding it's many verses about a solid dome, and science is best justified this way in not needing to give up well established theories like plate tectonics.

The downside of course is that it makes many Christians uncomfortable considering the possibility that people 3,000 years ago may not have known 21st century astronomy. But I think that's just the hand that God has delt us and we just have to deal with it.

 

[RDKirk]

RDKirk said: ↑
Well, we know that the ancient Greeks had discovered the earth was spherical by about 350 BC. It doesn't take technology, it just takes logical observation.

But the important question to me is not whether ancient Hebrews thought the world was flat. I frankly don't care what they thought about the topology of the planet.

Because the ancient Greeks had discovered the spheroidal topology of the planet hundreds of years before Christ, I'm much more interested in whether Christians believed the planet was flat.

All evidence we have indicates that the early Church accepted the Greek discovery...or rather, the Greeks who became Christians saw nothing in Old Testament scripture to make them abandon their discovery.

Ancient Hebrews of course are the authors of Genesis, so why should we have more interest in the thoughts of Greeks who lived over a thousand years later?

I'm not an ancient Hebrew. I'm a Christian.

My point is based on whether early Christians adopted the ancient Greek topology or the ancient Hebrew topology. Whichever they adopted, it would have been under the auspices of the Apostles.

If they adopted the ancient Greek view, it would mean they took Genesis and other OT scriptures figuratively in that particular respect.

And it does appear they adopted the ancient Greek view.

 

[Job 33:6]

RDKirk said: ↑
Well, we know that the ancient Greeks had discovered the earth was spherical by about 350 BC. It doesn't take technology, it just takes logical observation.

But the important question to me is not whether ancient Hebrews thought the world was flat. I frankly don't care what they thought about the topology of the planet.

Because the ancient Greeks had discovered the spheroidal topology of the planet hundreds of years before Christ, I'm much more interested in whether Christians believed the planet was flat.

All evidence we have indicates that the early Church accepted the Greek discovery...or rather, the Greeks who became Christians saw nothing in Old Testament scripture to make them abandon their discovery.

I'm not an ancient Hebrew. I'm a Christian.

My point is based on whether early Christians adopted the ancient Greek topology or the ancient Hebrew topology. Whichever they adopted, it would have been under the auspices of the Apostles.

If they adopted the ancient Greek view, it would mean they took Genesis and other OT scriptures figuratively in that particular respect.

And it does appear they adopted the ancient Greek view.

I don't think it's necessary to assume the OT to be figurative, just because we know about things like heliocentrism or that the planet is round.

Why couldn't the OT have literally meant what it said while us still being aware that reality is different?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

But I would say that, really the science vs religion "debate" can be quite easily resolved by simply acknowledging that the authors of Genesis simply weren't aware of scientific information that we are today...

I have never read anything more foolish on a "Christian" board, but I have read the same foolishness from others who deny the Author of the Scriptures, written through men, but inspired by the 3rd Person of the Godhead.

There is nothing more scientific than Genesis 1 through Revelation 21.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I don't think it's necessary to assume the OT to be figurative, just because we know about things like heliocentrism...

No, "we" do not "know" the foolish myth called heliocentrism. From Genesis to Revelation, the heavens circle the earth daily, and within the heavens, the sun, moon and stars faithfully follow their ordained paths.
The sun rises in the east and sets in the west, daily. The science of it's ordained path is totally described by Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam, who was shown all the ordinances of heaven set for the sun, moon, and stars.
And Joshua fully understood the ordinances of heaven for the sun and moon when He commanded them to stand still and not go down, and they did not.
And FYI, earth is NOT a planet! Planet is Greek and means "wandering star" the wandering stars have no light of their own and do go in their paths around the sun.
Earth is fixed in place, held there by the forces called "pillars", which are "winds/polar currents".

 

[Job 33:6]

the foolish myth called heliocentrism.

Ohhh kay, quietly selects the "ignore" button due to fringe beliefs.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Geo Centric earth is Bible fact.
Robert Sungenis has excellent charts on youtube showing the paths of the planets around the sun and path of sun around earth.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think it's necessary to assume the OT to be figurative, just because we know about things like heliocentrism or that the planet is round.

Why couldn't the OT have literally meant what it said while us still being aware that reality is different?

That's the definition of "figurative."

 

[Job 33:6]

That's the definition of "figurative."

I mean literally meant what it said. As in, the firmament was actually firm, or that there were windows/floodgates that actually did restrain water. Being real things as opposed to figures of speech regarding clouds.

Why couldn't the authors have meant, literally, what they said? While us later in history, being aware that geocentrism isn't true for example.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

... As in, the firmament was actually firm, or that there were windows/floodgates that actually did restrain water. ...While us later in history, being aware that geocentrism isn't true for example.

Birds fly in the face of the heavens.
The sun, moon, and stars are set in the heavens that are stretched out between the primal waters of the globe.
The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars are the exact paths they follow in the circle of the heavens, beneath the waters above the stretched out heavens, as they travel around the global earth.

Paul was caught up into Paradise, in the 3rd heaven, which is stretched out between the cut in two primal waters of the globe.
Paradise is the Garden of God, in heaven, which Adam was set in at the beginning of creation, when he was created as "Adam, son of God" -of the flesh/human kind.
When Adam was cast down from heaven, he could not go back, and there is a gate to go there that is guarded by holy Cherubim, lest the Adam creation go back up, eat of the tree of life, and live forever as an undying worm, fit only for the Lake of Fire and never able to be adopted into the New Man name, Living Spirit, and adoption flesh body named "Israel", as kinsman/Redeemer to Adam and the kingdom Adam sold into sin, corruption, and death.
In the 3rd story of the stretched out heavens, the Holy Mount of God called Jerusalem above, and Eden Above, still exist, where the Tree of Life is.
So Adam lost the rule of earth when he died as Adam, son of God, and the promise of the Redeemer/Kinsman was given who would crush the head of the serpent, that old dragon, the devil; ransom the kingdom back, as Kinsman/Redeemer, marry the barren "widow" (Jerusalem above), and raise up living stones to build Jerusalem above up, by, for the Glory to indwell.
There is no such a thing as flat earth nor a dome over creation, but stories/layers of stretched out heavens, in which 3rd, Paradise, on the east of the Mountain of God, exists.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Joshua commanded the sun and moon to stand still, and they did, for almost a whole day -over the almost end of the present day in which Israel was fighting. And not only that, but holy angels cast down great hailstones from heaven upon the enemy's army that day.
Joshua10:11
And it happened, as they fled before Israel and were on the descent of Beth Horon, that the Lord cast down large hailstones from heaven on them as far as Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel killed with the sword.

12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
13
So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.

Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14 And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.

This tells us the sun and the moon stood still. The earth never moves -but one day, in the tribulation it will move out of it's place.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So, the flat earthers cannot reconcile the third heaven as being where Paradise, the Garden of God where the Tree of Life is in the midst of, with a flat earth with a solid something.
Also: they cannot reconcile the angels of God descending and ascending at Mount Hermon, in the north of Israel, nor chariots and horses of fire surrounding Jerusalem, nor windows open in heaven and angels tossing out their food for Israel, every day, in the wilderness.
To a flat earther, those windows open would let out water, not angels' food. Angels have food in heaven, though some angels' food and drink and rest is to praise and worship before the throne of YHVH forever, others eat food, and at least mannah, which is described as bread of heaven, in Psalm 78.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are copies of earlier manuscripts -with the earliest DSS dated to 300 BC, but they are copies, only, and not originals- there is the Book of Wars, in which the holy angels in heaven fight the evil principalities and powers in the heavenlies (like in Daniel 10: 12, 13, and in Revelation), and holy men of God fight the evil ones on earth; and in that book, the war spans the GLOBE" -so says my English translation

 

[Ragdoll]

Geo Centric earth is Bible fact.
Robert Sungenis has excellent charts on youtube showing the paths of the planets around the sun and path of sun around earth.

That's heliocentrism you are describing. Geocentrism is an earth that doesn't move at all and the sun, moon, and planets all move around the stationary earth. But Scripture teaches heliocentrism if we accept the word of God Himself in Job.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's heliocentrism you are describing. Geocentrism is an earth that doesn't move at all and the sun, moon, and planets all move around the stationary earth. But Scripture teaches heliocentrism if we accept the word of God Himself in Job.
View attachment 315816

Genesis 1:14-19 (Day 4)
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

creation shows us a very geocentric model. essentially everything in the sky is there for the declared purpose to benefit the earth and has no other reason. This doesn't mean that everything spins around earth but it's the clearest biblical worldview. The bible does not teach heliocentrism. You're just taking biblical words and superimposing advanced concepts over them. The bible for that matter doesn't formally teach geocentrism either, that's just a pulled-out worldview based on what it does tell but what spins around what in itself is too abstract of a concept to say it is or is not a biblical position. The Bible simply is not a book about geocentric/heliocentrc teachings and we shouldn't be using it to confirm or declare these positions.

 

[Ragdoll]

Genesis 1:14-19 (Day 4)
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

creation shows us a very geocentric model. essentially everything in the sky is there for the declared purpose to benefit the earth and has no other reason. This doesn't mean that everything spins around earth but it's the clearest biblical worldview. The bible does not teach heliocentrism. You're just taking biblical words and superimposing advanced concepts over them. The bible for that matter doesn't formally teach geocentrism either, that's just a pulled-out worldview based on what it does tell but what spins around what in itself is too abstract of a concept to say it is or is not a biblical position. The Bible simply is not a book about geocentric/heliocentrc teachings and we shouldn't be using it to confirm or declare these positions.

Yes, the Bible teaches heliocentrism.

In geocentrism the earth does not move. We have a moving earth in several verses of the Bible. The first passage in the Bible to speak about a rotating earth is Genesis 1:4-5. Traditional exegesis says that this passage is about the earth's first rotation as a spherical planet. So this, being the most ancient interpretation of the passage on record, is the most trusted. Even reputable scholars today understand that Genesis 1:4-5 is the earth's first rotation as a planet.

This ANE, flat earth stuff, is a major heresy. We know the earth is a globe. We know all other planets are globes as well. You can see them through your telescopes and they are globes. Yet you want me to believe that the earth is flat. I do not and will not believe you. The oldest and most reliable ancient witnesses interpret the Biblical shape of the planet as being spherical. In fact, Clement of Rome has the best quote out of all the early church fathers. He not only read globe earth from Scripture from back in the 1st century, but he also read about antipodes in the Bible. Now try and reason your flat earth with antipodes and see how well that works for ya. It doesn't work.

The interpretation of Day 2 is also refuted in light of Genesis 1:4-5 which is understood to be the earth's first full spin, making the first day. How can the earth be a globe on Day 1 and then be flat on Day 2? Your method of exegesis is wrong, sorry to say.

Scripture is not wrong.
Flat earthers are wrong.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That's heliocentrism you are describing. Geocentrism is an earth that doesn't move at all and the sun, moon, and planets all move around the stationary earth. But Scripture teaches heliocentrism if we accept the word of God Himself in Job.
View attachment 315816

Hi Ragdoll,
Actually, Geocentric earth is just fact in the Bible, and a geocentric earth is the center of the entire universe, as Genesis 1 shows that the entire heavens were stretched out from the primal waters of the globe, between those cut in two waters: Two Waters /Sha Mayim is what the Creator named the firmament stretched out in stories/layers of at least 3, with Paradise being in the 3rd heaven/story/layer.
As to Sungenies, his charts show the geocentric unmoving earth and the paths of the planets around the sun, yearly. He teaches a geocentric unmoving earth as the Word of God does, but in his charts, he also shows the heliocentric model, for comparison.
So the entire stretched out heavens circle the earth each Day. A Day is measured by 18 parts in Enoch, and the light of the day and darkness of the night are equal two times a year, at fall and spring equinox's, and the light is double the night at summer solstice, and the night is double the the light at winter solstice. All this is measured from the center, or belly button, of earth as God calls Israel.
So it (the Dry "named Earth", called "to be" from the primal waters under the heavens, began coming forth and spreading out from there, so to speak. Earth is a globe, and it has a "belly button" from the beginning of the "spreading out of it".
The heavens are the cicle of the earth, in Job, and in the passage you put up from Job, in 38:12-14 is God speaking to Job of the "Morning" and the "Dawn" rolling over earth like a clay seal leaving it's impression, so to speak. Go check it out, because it does not say the earth is turning.